Power Line conditioners

odyssey · #11 15th August 2008, 12:29 AM

Suhas
what you have described is exactly what I mentioned above and before - online double conversion sine wave UPS. You can get this at power one in Bangalore. I got one made for about 20k

Cheers

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuhasG

Venkat, Thanks for the detailed reply.

Let us take that UPS thing first because that was my straight question to you. Your price list seems to be inclusive of Batteries. Get prices w/o batteries. Further UPS can be of different types On-line, off Line, Line Interactive (they call it so) prices and performance varies accordingly. Mere prices won't help here complete specs are also needed to carry out some evaluation.

Out of the list you provided only Emerson - 2KVA - Rs.32, 400 sounds Okay provided it is true/pure sine wave type.

But 2 KVA rating is misleading or rather insufficient to determine its suitability. I guess it is steady state rating. What about In Rush current ratings? Further 2 KVA rating may not be sufficient for moderately rated power amplifier. I remember somewhere we two discussed KVA rating required w.r.t. Amplifier ratings. Regarding APC and Microtek I am doubtful.

My idea of having an UPS in the chain is to run HiFi gear entirely on battery power. In such an arrangement I need just an Inverter but of Pure Sine Wave type. HiFi gear will always run of that Inverter as if AC mains is failed. Mains is used only to charge batteries. While playing music Inverter is physically disconnected from mains. Music will play as long as batteries are having enough juice. But I am yet to find such an Inverter that can do this job w/o costing me a bomb!

Anyway, on Power cord it seems you agree with me.

Regards

SUhas

venkatcr · #12 15th August 2008, 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by suhasG

Let us take that UPS thing first because that was my straight question to you. Your price list seems to be inclusive of Batteries. Get prices w/o batteries. Further UPS can be of different types On-line, off Line, Line Interactive (they call it so) prices and performance varies accordingly. Mere prices won't help here complete specs are also needed to carry out some evaluation.

In most consumer UPS, the battery is fitted inside the box, and they will not sell without the battery. Only in large UPS such as 5KVA and for longer backup time, because of the size of the batteries, they are kept outside the UPS. There the pricing is separate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by suhasG

Out of the list you provided only Emerson - 2KVA - Rs.32, 400 sounds Okay provided it is true/pure sine wave type.

But 2 KVA rating is misleading or rather insufficient to determine its suitability. I guess it is steady state rating. What about In Rush current ratings? Further 2 KVA rating may not be sufficient for moderately rated power amplifier. I remember somewhere we two discussed KVA rating required w.r.t. Amplifier ratings. Regarding APC and Microtek I am doubtful.

I agree. These UPS are made for computers that do not have a huge spike in input. None of the above will serve that end.

Quote:

Originally Posted by suhasG

My idea of having an UPS in the chain is to run HiFi gear entirely on battery power. In such an arrangement I need just an Inverter but of Pure Sine Wave type. HiFi gear will always run of that Inverter as if AC mains is failed. Mains is used only to charge batteries. While playing music Inverter is physically disconnected from mains. Music will play as long as batteries are having enough juice. But I am yet to find such an Inverter that can do this job w/o costing me a bomb!

Generally UPS deliver only quasi sine wave or square wave. But APC does have specific models that deliver pure sine wave. I also checked with an Emerson representative. He said they have a way to completely disconnect the output from the mains, and feed power to the output transformed from the batteries. The mains will be used for just charging the batteries. They call these special applications, and deliver against specific orders. I believe hospitals use this type regularly to monitor patient data.

Since UPS are not meant to handle input spike, what you may have to do is enhance the power factor by maybe 50 to 100% over your normal state rating. That should take care of your rush current requirements.

Your specific requirement can only be met against an order by a company such as Emerson or maybe APC. Emerson did tell me they can do it. I am not sure companies such as Microtek and others will be able to help you.

Cheers

SuhasG · #13 15th August 2008, 09:31 AM

Venkat if Computer type UPS is what you are recommending instead of a servo Voltage Stabilizer then stop recommending it any more because such computer type UPS is:

Not a pure sine wave type or at most quassi sine wave type :: This may damage a HiFI gear.
When AC mains is present this UPS will feed it as is w/o any processing mean it won't even perform the job usually carried by a Servo stab. At the most it comes fitted with Over voltage/Under voltage / Short circuit protection.
Since such tiny UPS can provide backup only for 15 minutes means it is no good to listen music when AC power is not present
Then if the UPS is meant only for graceful shut down of HiFI system then it is a over Kill , for Computer it is required (to protect Hard Disc from crashing / avoid data corruption) . If AC mains fails and HiFI gear gets switched off abruptly while playing music , no much of a damage will happen

Then why any such UPS is recommended over and over again which lacks protection, despite being called an UPS lacks power backup and no way comes cheaper than a typical Servo voltage stab ?

Now you yourself had verified the facts that an UPS which can serves some REAL business / purpose , comes with a hefty price tag (special order?) . That's exactly what I was suggesting since long.

I view an UPS on the lines of Power Regeneration principles. It is as if you have your own power plant running off the batteries. PS Audio makes such systems and are pretty expensive. A pure sine wave Inverter can serve this purpose at much lower cost because switching circuitry is not needed, DC rectification is limited only to Battery charger.

If one afford this , well and good, go ahead with it by all means otherwise one is better off with a well made Servo voltage stabilizer rather than putting a inappropriate UPS and remain under some wrong impression that the UPS is protecting the HiFI system.

SUhas

venkatcr · #14 15th August 2008, 09:24 PM

Suhas:

I think there is an ocean of difference between what your requirements are and what I am saying. Yes, for your specific requirements, the UPS will not be useful.

For stabilised voltage to a music of video system, I fail to see why a UPS cannot be used. I have gone through the specs of three or four companies and spoken to a few technical guys. Look at the typical specs of an UPS from Vertex, Krykard, Numeric

1. Input voltage from - 170 to 270
2. Input Frequency - 50Hz +/- 5 Hz
3. Output Voltage - 22/230/240 depending upon your setting +/- 1 or 2%
4. Waveform - Sinusoidal
5. IGBT based switches
6. Typically correction is something like 200 milliseconds
7. THD of less than 5%
8. Noise factor of less than 56dB at 2 meters.

You will get similar specs from a servo controlled stabiliser.

If we calculate the power requirements correctly and add a 25% excess for overload, they will serve well. Mind you these are for very simple systems. Some of these manufacturers claim they can handle upto 150% of stated power specifications.

Of course these will not be in the same price range as the computer UPS. But they are ones that can be used in residences and will not be as expensive as the industrial ones.

Cheers.

SuhasG · #15 15th August 2008, 10:50 PM

Venkat, for one argument especially when price is concerned you use examples of cheep computer UPS (no protection, no sine wave type) and when it comes to output wave-form, protection and performance issues you start giving examples of some Hi End UPS names with no mention of prices (with are hefty by all means!).

Be consistent man! In your over enthusiasm in answering each and every post on this forum, you have many times in many threads , jumbled up and later had to admit the errors / oversights.

This is endless, so to conclude I put forward my thoughts based upon my observations, market research.

El Cheapo UPS meant for computer are no good for HiFI gear when viewed in terms voltage regulation, As all such UPS just feed forward AC input as it is. Output waveform is just horrible and may cause damage to HiFI gear during that so called 15 minutes back up period.
In better UPS (Hi End ) , provides protection, better waveform every thing is nice but then the price is also that big.
A 5-8K Servo stab is far better than 3-5K El Cheapo UPS. By putting an EL Cheapo UPS one is throwing his/her hard earned money into a dustbin and not only that S/he is putting the Hi FI gear at risk.
I don't recommend an UPS costing Rs 30-40K for a system costing even up to 100K-150K. Either put a Servo Stab or nothing.

For those who want to add an UPS, just check following aspects:

How normal AC is delivered at the output: Feed forward or through AC to DC and then Wave shaping.
Check the output waveform under both conditions: AC main present and not present. And Check this waveform at full load condition, this is important.
Check additional protections provided
Check current ratings both In rush and Steady state.
Price

And then take a decision.

Hope this helps.

SUhas

venkatcr · #16 16th August 2008, 12:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuhasG

Venkat, for one argument especially when price is concerned you use examples of cheep computer UPS (no protection, no sine wave type) and when it comes to output wave-form, protection and performance issues you start giving examples of some Hi End UPS names with no mention of prices (with are hefty by all means!).

Be consistent man! In your over enthusiasm in answering each and every post on this forum, you have many times in many threads , jumbled up and later had to admit the errors / oversights.

This is endless, so to conclude I put forward my thoughts based upon my observations, market research.
[list=1][*]El Cheapo UPS meant for computer are no good for HiFI gear when viewed in terms voltage regulation, As all such UPS just feed forward AC input as it is. Output waveform is just horrible and may cause damage to HiFI gear during that so called 15 minutes back up period.

SuhasG, I have clearly mentioned in my post that the prices are different. I have also mentioned that these companies do make UPS with different capacities and capabilities. My attempt here was not to recommend anything, but to understand the use of UPS.

I am not recommending anything here. I am just trying to understand why, if the price/capacity is reasonable, we cannot use an UPS for audio/video systems against, say, a stabiliser.

I am going to talk to few people in the industry and see what they say. I don't think it makes sense to write off UPS that easily for audio/video systems.

There are lots of people who cannot afford expensive power conditioning system with a stabiliser, isolation transformer etc. If they can get an affordable power conditioning system, why not?

Cheers

SKR · #17 16th August 2008, 10:58 AM

I have used Online UPS for my hi-end system in Delhi but it was primariliry for protecting my system from voltage fluctuations and sudden black outs because till a few years back power supply in Delhi by DESU was very very bad. So i had to use an Online UPS as my system was expensive. Now as the power distribution in Delhi has been given to a private company and power supply has improved a lot I have got a Servo stabiliser to supply power to my system which i think is better.
Basically UPS's are designed for computer applications in mind and their output connectors are very cheap and it may not fully support sudden demand of current while listening to music even though it supply a stable voltage and stable frequency.
That is why APC a leading UPS manufacturer in USA (also selling UPS in India)
has come out with Special power conditioners for Music and Vedeo applications. But unfortunately they are selling this in USA only for the moment for 110 Volts.

reignofchaos · #18 16th August 2008, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by venkatcr

Regarding prices for UPS, here is what I have been able to find in the market. It is not as bad as we thought it will be.

APC - 1KVA - Rs.5,850
APC - 2KVA - Around Rs.15,000 (Can be reduced with lesser batteries)
Microtek - 1KVA - Rs.3750
Microtek - 2KVA - Rs,12,000

Emerson - 2KVA - Rs.32,400

All are 15 minute back up time. In UPS, the prices depend upon the back up time.

The prices you quoted are not for pure sine wave UPS systems. They cost lots more. I paid Rs 18,000 for a 1.5 kVA APC Smart UPS. This is one with an internal battery and is a pure sinewave online UPS.

The ones with external batteries are significantly more pricey. That is the Smart UPS XL range and they start off at 2.2kVA for the UPS at ~25000 plus there's the cost of a battery pack (~15k).

arj · #19 16th August 2008, 11:28 PM

This is the APC smart UPS right ? the 2KVA version is around 35K. these give a Pure Sine wave and are always on in terms of output wave shaping
the equivalent one from SUKAM is also around 35K.

These are really Good .

the lower end ones (Even from APC) DO Not give a pure sine wave. they give a Triangular wave which approximate a sine wave. Also they come into picture only when the power goes OFF which does not make sense if the objective was power conditioning .
so When power is ON they pass on the power as it is
Power is OFF they give you a "approximate" sine wave.

either way it does not make sense ! better to get a servo stabiliser !

I do have an 800VA APC UPS..the sound is worse when the power is off so use it only for the lights/fan etc. (My system doe not take more than 500W)

vea · #20 17th August 2008, 01:15 AM

I was reading all the posts on this issue as I am right now thinking of upgrading my mains cables. It has become slightly confusing over here..so let me ask all of you some basic things?

I believe equipment worth a couple of lakhs will have better input power management systems than stablizers and UPSs worth a few thousands. Am i wrong? In that case, will it be better if i plug those equipments directly into the wall socket? (ignoring the problems with spikes).

I believe its worth spending a few thousands on mains cables to connect equipments worth few lakhs, so that a cheap, inefficient power cable is not the weakest link in my system which restricts me from tapping my relatively expensive equipment's potential to the fullest.

If i use a power conditioning system for my equipments, i think its not worth spending on expensive power cables to connect individual equipment to the power conditioning unit. Its either the power conditioner or the cables. Agree with that?

And finally the million dollar question..is there any real (audible to human ears, not testing equipments) difference between a stock cable and a moderately (say $100-300) expensive cable?

Your comments Please.

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