Acoustic treatment for a living room HT/music setup

[liverpool_for_life]

The thread detailing my HT setup is here. Room dimensions/description are in the first post of that thread.

For a variety of reasons (including space, WAF, little ones running around etc.), I settled on the Paradigm Soundscape, a 5.1 sound bar.

My review of the sound bar is here.

As I said in the review, I don't believe I am getting the best out of the Soundscape and want to work on room correction to improve the SQ.

I am facing the following issues:

a. Lack of dialogue intelligibility in Movie mode (I specifically chose the Soundscape since it comes with separate drivers for each of the 3 front channels, so I know the room is the issue here)

b. Boomy bass/sound when the loudness option is turned on

c. Lack of stereo imaging ( I am not expecting a whole lot here, but some would be nice)

I have had a couple of folks visit my home to see what suggestions they might have.

The person from Anutone was patient and spent quite a bit of time. He was however reluctant to suggest anything other than a full-blown treatment covering 70% of the surface area, including the ceiling. Unfortunately, that puts the cost of the treatment way above my budget. I said I'd be ok with doing something within my budget and asked him to recommend first steps, but I haven't heard (and I suspect I won't).

I also had a visit from folks at Acoustics India (offices in T. Nagar). Surprisingly, their recommendation was foam in the corner (wall behind LP and wall to left of LP) and a 4ft by 4 ft rug in front of the LP. I was told that would make a dramatic difference to SQ and that was all I needed. Unfortunately, foam blocks in the corner of the room right up all the way to the ceiling doesn't pass the WAF test.

After a little bit of pushing (from my side!), I've been offered the choice of a 2 ft by 2ft synth absorption panel covered with fabric (2 in thick). The missus has seen the panels and is fine with them.

Suggestion from Acoustics India is 4 panels on the wall behind me and 2 on the left side wall. Nothing for the rest. Each panel will cost Rs. 2,000, inclusive of installation. Checking around, I realise this is steep.

So, I wanted to see if anyone has used their panels and what their thoughts were. Even if you haven't, what are your thoughts on the proposed suggestions for treatment. Can I get away with less? Do I need to do more?

Thanks in advance for all your help!

 

[sound_cycle]

As I said in the review, I don't believe I am getting the best out of the Soundscape and want to work on room correction to improve the SQ<snip>b. Boomy bass/sound when the loudness option is turned on<snip>Even if you haven't, what are your thoughts on the proposed suggestions for treatment. Can I get away with less? Do I need to do more?

Equalization is *I guess* about the only unobtrusive and (relatively) inexpensive way to get the low end sorted out. So maybe

HDMI out from switch to LG TV and optical out from switch <insert minidsp here> to Soundscape. Soundscape mounted on the wall.

type solution is indicated, maybe ?

Sadly, DRC not a magical fixit but rather a final step after pesky early reflections and things that need to be sorted out are addressed.

IMHO a few inches of foam is not going to do anything useful as a bass trap (thickness required is 1/4th of the wavelength), and then they would not be behind you, so I suggest maybe not to the AI option.

BTW with 8K you could do a lot better with DIY, Rockwool etc and have money left over too.

In the usual chicken and egg way that life serves problems you would ideally measure your room etc before you start treating it. (I figured you have to break eggs to make omelette, jumped right in and have just ordered a mic to measure with, still have to figure out if a waterfall plot comes with a mandakini poster etc)

ciao
gr

 

[Naturelover]

A sound bar essentially works by reflecting sound off adjoining walls. It needs walls on both sides (and behind the listener for the rear effects). Your room does not seem to have this symmetry at least on the side walls. You will somehow need to correct that as far as possible.
Afraid I can't be of more help than that.

Except that an AVR with a wall mounted set of sats and a sub would have been far better.
Even bookshelves which lend themselves to wall mounting (Dali Zensor 1, for one, which I use exactly like that in my bedroom) in 3.1 format and a sub..... Wishful thinking now, I guess.
Does still deserve a serious thought, though, to my mind.
It's simply a case of what will give you more pleasure. I don't think that sound bar is going to do it for you especially for the music part. You'll unnecessarily spend on room treatment which is itself a no no in a living room.
Just trying to help.

I have a 17x13 living room with one of the longer sides almost completely open and I still enjoy my 7.1 HT with sats without any room treatment. Love the music also on the setup.

 

[sound_cycle]

It needs walls on both sides (and behind the listener for the rear effects). Your room does not seem to have this symmetry at least on the side walls. You will somehow need to correct that as far as possible.<snip>I don't think that sound bar is going to do it for you especially for the music part. You'll unnecessarily spend on room treatment which is itself a no no in a living room.
Just trying to help.

The sound that you hear from any source in any room is a combination of the direct sound that travels straight from that source to your ears, and the indirect reflected sound bouncing off walls, floor, ceiling, and that nice smoked glass coffee table on its way to your ears.

That reflected sound is necessary for music and speech to sound natural, by the way and no some unique requirement for soundbars. I've never been in an anechoic chamber but have heard speakers intended for a room (where they sounded damn good) in a tennis court, thin and dull, and no bounce ie no bass. I recollect seeing a pic on hfv of aluminium jhaadoos hung on the side wall to make sure that side wall reflections were aplenty.

Sadly the selfsame reflections can also distort sound in a room by making certain notes sound louder while canceling out others(room modes, early reflection). And if you have an asymmetrical room getting a decent stereo image is well nigh impossible (ask me how I know and how much i have spent trying to avoid moving to a new house with a nice purpose built listening room).

How do you find these reflection points ? the mirror trick for one, or you could calculate it see here RealTraps - How To Set Up a Room

I'll bet you broken and scratched CD that any listening room will benefit from some sound treatment and that it will enhance your listening experience, in both subjective and measurable terms. No point betting more than that because it is a certainty

Having said that let me also say

I have a 17x13 living room with one of the longer sides almost completely open and I still enjoy my 7.1 HT with sats without any room treatment. Love the music also on the setup.

That's just great! I only need to tame two speakers and have so far lost

What did you do about room modes with energy from 7 speakers and a sub in that room ? I just put your room dimensions into http://amroc.andymel.eu/ and the bolt area graph suggests that all cannot be well with those dimensions.

ciao
gr

 

[Naturelover]

That reflected sound is necessary for music and speech to sound natural, by the way and no some unique requirement for soundbars.

Quite so but sound bars depend upon reflections for surround and rear effects without which they are quite dull.
OP does not have a full wall to one side so a sound bar would not work very well. Which is why I came to mention my setup.
Below is a quote from OP's earlier thread, the one in the opening line of his first post here.

here are 2 single-seater sofas against the wall to the left of the TV (from viewing position). On the other side, there is a door + wall portion that is roughly 6 ft wide. The rest of that side is open and leads to the dining.

That's just great! I only need to tame two speakers and have so far lost

What did you do about room modes with energy from 7 speakers and a sub in that room ? I just put your room dimensions into amroc - the room mode calculator and the bolt area graph suggests that all cannot be well with those dimensions.

ciao
gr

I have found the Cardas line of thought to be very helpful for my two channel setup. I have not really bothered very much with the 7.1 simply because my priority has shifted considerably to two channel. In fact, my two channel has seen a complete overhaul which is enumerated across several threads.
Not to say that I wouldn't love to have some guidance if you could provide some via PM and we could take it from there.

 

[sound_cycle]

I have found the Cardas line of thought to be very helpful for my two channel setup<snip>Not to say that I wouldn't love to have some guidance if you could provide some via PM and we could take it from there.

Apologies OP back on topic I promise after this slight thread drift since positioning is not a possibility with a soundbar,

I've used audiobeat and LEDR - not enough space / possibility for the golden mean positioning :|

Must point out, am very much the rank novitiate, but am reading up and trying to figure out my room so will be glad to share notes and setting up weapons to slay the boomy mode beast (REW / Dirac Live Trial) - once I've got some measuring done.

Back on thread.

ciao
gr

 

[liverpool_for_life]

sound_cycle,

Thanks for your response. I am not looking for perfection. I am simply looking for something that makes a significant difference to SQ. Measuring the room looks like overkill for what I am trying to achieve.

My post did mention that the missus rejected the foam idea. I have had more than one person listen in the room and they are virtually unanimous in that the corner of the room (to the left and behind LP) is the one that needs attending to. I will get the best value for my money by starting there.

Couple of suggestions:

a. 2*2 absorption panels right in the top corner on either wall and another pair halfway between the floor and ceiling (WAF pretty low)

b. 3 5 in wide wooden absorption panels running from ceiling to floor on either wall. Quote for those is Rs.350/sq.ft., although it is not clear yet whether they have anything in light enough colours to match the decor.

NatureLover,

I understand, and am ok, with the fact that the sound bar is a compromise. No matter how good, it isn't going to match a separates system at that price( although if I added a sub, I might get pretty close for HT). Trade-offs were necessary and made. I know that if I had a dedicated HT/music room, the sound bar would be relegated to the bedroom. Unfortunately, that's probably a good 2-3 years away. Until then, this is all I've got. There is no going back.

I understand your point about music, but every review I've read basically points to at least a decentish stereo image. The fact that I can't leads me to believe it's a room issue. Whether it's something that can be fixed by room correction is another issue (although I've been led to believe that it is possible). I am certainly going to try!

Any thoughts on the proposed solution for the corner? Thanks!

 

[sound_cycle]

I have had more than one person listen in the room and they are virtually unanimous in that the corner of the room (to the left and behind LP) is the one that needs attending to. I will get the best value for my money by starting there.

See if they are right. This resource amroc - the room mode calculator is a very good starting point.

a. 2*2 absorption panels right in the top corner on either wall and another pair halfway between the floor and ceiling (WAF pretty low)

b. 3 5 in wide wooden absorption panels running from ceiling to floor on either wall. Quote for those is Rs.350/sq.ft., although it is not clear yet whether they have anything in light enough colours to match the decor.

I (like you said in post above) was not looking for perfection. Just that "earing it out" is probably not going to be profitable - it was not for me. But do state your goal more clearly - I understood it to be that your room booms and that you want to kill that boom

a) is not going to do anything useful for you other than the dirty looks you say you will get (there is a link above to figure out the reflection points). I did not quite understand b) Could not understand. are they absorbers (how thick) or diffusers (why so tall ?)


a & b together will do nothing about the boomy bass. (I assumed that b is an absorber


ciao
gr

 

[liverpool_for_life]

I (like you said in post above) was not looking for perfection. Just that "earing it out" is probably not going to be profitable - it was not for me. But do state your goal more clearly - I understood it to be that your room booms and that you want to kill that boom

sound_cycle,

You were absolutely spot on (no surprise there!). In addition to getting some absorption panels up in the room, which helped tame a fair bit of the harshness of the sound, I ended up getting a Minidsp unit (NanoAVR DL) to help out with the bass frequencies.

However, I figure the measurements I am getting by just using the mini-tripod supplied with the UMik-1 aren't accurate. Any suggestions for a mic stand for this purpose? Nothing fancy, just something that will get the job done. Thanks!