Adding a power amp to my system - how to approach and will it benefit?

[noblejose]

Hi all!
I'm running My KEF R300 from Exposure 2010 S2 stereo integrated amp, and I'm very happy with its performance. Infact this is the amp stayed with me longer time. I started with Marantz 6 series to 7, 8 and then all the way to Luxman L505, Exposure 3010, and back to Exposure 2010 s2.

I listen in low-volume and late-night sessions most of the time, i'm pretty happy with Exposure 2010 s2 .. i was thinking to add a power amp to make it more versatile and a bit more volume play in the daytime - with good control. recently i tested a vintage Quad power amp but i didn't like the combo. Maybe i'll have to look for an Exposure 3010 stereo power amp/ (not planning to go to monoblocks as of now). or how about other Indian brands, like Indiq platinum-saptak-monoblock-stereo-power-amp.. any experience/suggestions please. - My audio chain is in the signature.

thanks,
Noble

 

[Analogous]

Hi,
Curiosity about audio is what keeps us all going. I have heard the Exposure 2010; it’s a very nice sounding amp.

I don’t have a solution to offer you but a few questions and thoughts came to mind on reading your post.
You have mentioned you listen mostly at low volume presumably to avoid disturbing those sleeping?
At other times do you feel your set up lacks dynamic range or something else when you turn up the volume on the Exposure? In other words “what do you feel is lacking?”

It may be good to also take into account your room size and how much power you need to drive your KEFs nicely in there.

How well the KEFs combine with the Exposure amp (spec matching and synergy) is another aspect to consider, in case you have not done so already. (It took me a few years of experimenting and auditioning to identify the kind of sound signature that I preferred over others). Expensive, gear-head phase!

I did learn when I was not satisfied with the sound, a correct diagnosis of the issue leads to accurate treatment….and saves money too?

Apologies for the obtuse post. And good luck!

 

[noblejose]

Hi,
Curiosity about audio is what keeps us all going. I have heard the Exposure 2010; it’s a very nice sounding amp.

I don’t have a solution to offer you but a few questions and thoughts came to mind on reading your post.
You have mentioned you listen mostly at low volume presumably to avoid disturbing those sleeping?
At other times do you feel your set up lacks dynamic range or something else when you turn up the volume on the Exposure? In other words “what do you feel is lacking?”

It may be good to also take into account your room size and how much power you need to drive your KEFs nicely in there.

How well the KEFs combine with the Exposure amp (spec matching and synergy) is another aspect to consider, in case you have not done so already. (It took me a few years of experimenting and auditioning to identify the kind of sound signature that I preferred over others). Expensive, gear-head phase!

I did learn when I was not satisfied with the sound, a correct diagnosis of the issue leads to accurate treatment….and saves money too?

Apologies for the obtuse post. And good luck!

Thank you for the notes.
low volume in the night - not just to avoid disturbing (this is a dedicated room where no one sleeps, have decent sound isolation too), but i do find its really pleasing to listen at low volume at night.
lack of control is what i felt in medium to high volumes.
spec matching and synergy - i haven't tested anything technical, but i do find this amp is very good match for my kef - i've started with various marantz, exposure 3010s, Luxman 505, but back to Exposure sound and now with 2010S2.
room treatment - i haven't tried much apart from placing couple of absorption panels behing speakers/corner. and not much room to do more placement adjustments as its my work/study space too.

I'm thinking a safer way for me is to add an Exposure 3010 or 2010 power amp - and use my current 2010s2 preout.

Many thanks!
Noble

 

[Amarendra]

Thank you for the notes.
low volume in the night - not just to avoid disturbing (this is a dedicated room where no one sleeps, have decent sound isolation too), but i do find its really pleasing to listen at low volume at night.
lack of control is what i felt in medium to high volumes.
spec matching and synergy - i haven't tested anything technical, but i do find this amp is very good match for my kef - i've started with various marantz, exposure 3010s, Luxman 505, but back to Exposure sound and now with 2010S2.
room treatment - i haven't tried much apart from placing couple of absorption panels behing speakers/corner. and not much room to do more placement adjustments as its my work/study space too.

I'm thinking a safer way for me is to add an Exposure 3010 or 2010 power amp - and use my current 2010s2 preout.

Many thanks!
Noble

This approach may not appeal to you. I was thinking of adding a power amp to my Denon AVR thinking that it was inadequately powered to run a 5.1.2 set up. Then I used a smart plug to measure the actual power consumption at peak listening volumes (AVR + 10 inch sub). What surprised me was that the AVR + sub at high listening volumes (~90 db) and in dense scenes were consuming less than 100 watts. What that meant was that the AVR itself was not using its peak power to warrant the addition of a power amp. When I still added an external amp, what I realised was that the sound changed not because the AVR was lacking power but the new amp added its own coloration to the sound. To cut a long story short I would suggest you measure what power the setup is consuming and see if the current amp has the specs to power it. If its border line then add a power amp. If you just want to change the flavor a bit, add a tube buffer or something since you may not notice any tangible benefits using a power amp. Recently I added a xduoo tube buffer just to change the flavor a bit.

 

[noblejose]

This approach may not appeal to you. I was thinking of adding a power amp to my Denon AVR thinking that it was inadequately powered to run a 5.1.2 set up. Then I used a smart plug to measure the actual power consumption at peak listening volumes (AVR + 10 inch sub). What surprised me was that the AVR + sub at high listening volumes (~90 db) and in dense scenes were consuming less than 100 watts. What that meant was that the AVR itself was not using its peak power to warrant the addition of a power amp. When I still added an external amp, what I realised was that the sound changed not because the AVR was lacking power but the new amp added its own coloration to the sound. To cut a long story short I would suggest you measure what power the setup is consuming and see if the current amp has the specs to power it. If its border line then add a power amp. If you just want to change the flavor a bit, add a tube buffer or something since you may not notice any tangible benefits using a power amp. Recently I added a xduoo tube buffer just to change the flavor a bit.

cool. thanks for the write, noted.
I face the need for change mostly when i increase the volume.. might be power issue - will try to measure.

 

[manek]

cool. thanks for the write, noted.
I face the need for change mostly when i increase the volume.. might be power issue - will try to measure.

Whats your current exposure amp rated at ? 8ohms, 4ohms ? Whats the nominal impedance of your speakers ?

What music to you listen to ?

What exactly do you mean by lack of control ?

 

[Yelamanchili manohar]

I've only ever heard the kef LS50 wireless and the Ref3. Both are very neutral speakers. And exposure amps have some of the best bass slam and speed. They are very similar to a Naim in sound. But if you are sensing discomfort at higher volumes, then it is definitely because of higher distortion, which is causing listening discomfort. But I really wonder where it is coming from. Exposure amps are clean sounding with PRAT, and certainly don't distort into a benign load like the kef R300's. So something else is amiss here I guess

 

[spirovious]

This approach may not appeal to you. I was thinking of adding a power amp to my Denon AVR thinking that it was inadequately powered to run a 5.1.2 set up. Then I used a smart plug to measure the actual power consumption at peak listening volumes (AVR + 10 inch sub). What surprised me was that the AVR + sub at high listening volumes (~90 db) and in dense scenes were consuming less than 100 watts. What that meant was that the AVR itself was not using its peak power to warrant the addition of a power amp. When I still added an external amp, what I realised was that the sound changed not because the AVR was lacking power but the new amp added its own coloration to the sound. To cut a long story short I would suggest you measure what power the setup is consuming and see if the current amp has the specs to power it. If its border line then add a power amp. If you just want to change the flavor a bit, add a tube buffer or something since you may not notice any tangible benefits using a power amp. Recently I added a xduoo tube buffer just to change the flavor a bit.

What was the method used to measure exact power?
When l used external Poweramp to avr, it didn't add much of its own color to the sound. lnfact AVR sound signature was same with better control.

 

[Amarendra]

What was the method used to measure exact power?
When l used external Poweramp to avr, it didn't add much of its own color to the sound. lnfact AVR sound signature was same with better control.

Used a smart plug that connects to phone via Wi-Fi and displays power consumption. I realised that I was under the placebo effect of better sound due to amp.

 

[square_wave]

When you say lacks control, what do you mean ? Can you tell us more ?

 

[sandeepmohan]

Then I used a smart plug to measure the actual power consumption at peak listening volumes (AVR + 10 inch sub). What surprised me was that the AVR + sub at high listening volumes (~90 db) and in dense scenes were consuming less than 100 watts.

I am not entirely convinced with this approach. How does measuring wall socket power draw have anything to do with the power delivered to the loud speaker or the quality and consistency of that power? Granted, you may need only 10 watts to get your speakers going. Then again, that also depends on the sensitivity of your loudspeaker. The difference lies in how quick the amplifier circuitry can respond to transients in the signal. AVR's are typically not very good at this. This is less of an issue with a stereo amplifier as its not driving 10 channels, all the time. You have two channels and power delivery is easier to control. AVR's are typically spared from low frequency rolls as you have a dedicated sub woofer handling low frequency. Send a full range signal for all 5 or 7 channels and they will likely start clipping. You don't need to measure. You will hear this.

Loud speaker load can also change the way the amplifier responds. If a loudspeaker is officially rated at 6ohms but can drop down to 4ohm, you'll be driving the amplifier off the cliff. In fact, most AVR amplifiers can't deliver stable current at 4ohm. They write that it can. More often, they fall apart.

The purpose of a dedicated power amplifier is to deliver consistent, quality power no matter what signal load you throw at it and with the least amount of distortion. If its altering the signal, thats not a amplifier I'd buy.

The KEF's we are discussing here can drop down to 3ohm. Its in the spec sheet from KEF. If the amplifier driving in can't feed it enough current when it does drop, you're not going to get the best out of it. Before heading down the road with a power amplifier, I'd say try different Integrated Amplifiers. You may want to revisit the sound of a Luxman (The new L595), etc.

 

[Amarendra]

I am not entirely convinced with this approach. How does measuring wall socket power draw have anything to do with the power delivered to the loud speaker or the quality and consistency of that power? Granted, you may need only 10 watts to get your speakers going. Then again, that also depends on the sensitivity of your loudspeaker. The difference lies in how quick the amplifier circuitry can respond to transients in the signal. AVR's are typically not very good at this. This is less of an issue with a stereo amplifier as its not driving 10 channels, all the time. You have two channels and power delivery is easier to control. AVR's are typically spared from low frequency rolls as you have a dedicated sub woofer handling low frequency. Send a full range signal for all 5 or 7 channels and they will likely start clipping. You don't need to measure. You will hear this.

Loud speaker load can also change the way the amplifier responds. If a loudspeaker is officially rated at 6ohms but can drop down to 4ohm, you'll be driving the amplifier off the cliff. In fact, most AVR amplifiers can't deliver stable current at 4ohm. They write that it can. More often, they fall apart.

The purpose of a dedicated power amplifier is to deliver consistent, quality power no matter what signal load you throw at it and with the least amount of distortion. If its altering the signal, thats not a amplifier I'd buy.

The KEF's we are discussing here can drop down to 3ohm. Its in the spec sheet from KEF. If the amplifier driving in can't feed it enough current when it does drop, you're not going to get the best out of it. Before heading down the road with a power amplifier, I'd say try different Integrated Amplifiers. You may want to revisit the sound of a Luxman (The new L595), etc.

I disagree on the point where you say that power draw has nothing to do with power delivered to the speaker. Also in my case the AVR + Subwoofer were connected to the same power plug. So it will be incorrect to say that sub was doing the heavy lifting. I was convinced with my simple approach. It may not be accurate to the last degree but gives a ball park.

 

[ankitbhargava]

This approach may not appeal to you. I was thinking of adding a power amp to my Denon AVR thinking that it was inadequately powered to run a 5.1.2 set up. Then I used a smart plug to measure the actual power consumption at peak listening volumes (AVR + 10 inch sub). What surprised me was that the AVR + sub at high listening volumes (~90 db) and in dense scenes were consuming less than 100 watts. What that meant was that the AVR itself was not using its peak power to warrant the addition of a power amp. When I still added an external amp, what I realised was that the sound changed not because the AVR was lacking power but the new amp added its own coloration to the sound. To cut a long story short I would suggest you measure what power the setup is consuming and see if the current amp has the specs to power it. If its border line then add a power amp. If you just want to change the flavor a bit, add a tube buffer or something since you may not notice any tangible benefits using a power amp. Recently I added a xduoo tube buffer just to change the flavor a bit.

I have a different experience
While I had my setup running on AVR, I always felt a hollowness in the sound and specially the action Movies.
The surrounds and Atmosphere were almost ineffective and the Front stage had the main role despite of running surrounds and atmos hot by 2-3DB.

After adding the Power Amps, I realised how the surrounds and Atmosphere came to life. The fronts stage did sound like a new set of speakers. The dynamics, comparative output from surrounds, rear and Atmos had an amazing balance for that immersive sound experience. It was real no placebo.

Probably even if the process of measuring the power requirement for speakers is accurate and acceptable, the scenes where actual peak power is required and that too with great balance and precision between the speakers ... Power Amps adds some magic.

It may only be true for my setup but this is my experience.

 

[edjamesx]

+1
I also felt My speakers came alive and sounded crisp and clear after adding Power Amps.
I think Indiq Audio was providing power amp for home audition for 0ne or two weeks. Just try yourself , and you can see whether it helps your requirement.

 

[nvnaveen]

Hi all!
I'm running My KEF R300 from Exposure 2010 S2 stereo integrated amp, and I'm very happy with its performance. Infact this is the amp stayed with me longer time. I started with Marantz 6 series to 7, 8 and then all the way to Luxman L505, Exposure 3010, and back to Exposure 2010 s2.

I listen in low-volume and late-night sessions most of the time, i'm pretty happy with Exposure 2010 s2 .. i was thinking to add a power amp to make it more versatile and a bit more volume play in the daytime - with good control. recently i tested a vintage Quad power amp but i didn't like the combo. Maybe i'll have to look for an Exposure 3010 stereo power amp/ (not planning to go to monoblocks as of now). or how about other Indian brands, like Indiq platinum-saptak-monoblock-stereo-power-amp.. any experience/suggestions please. - My audio chain is in the signature.

thanks,
Noble

Hi , nice point ..it depends on whats ur listening time & what u love hear more with ur system..
1st PA is added boost to speaker but PA & AVR amp shd match correctly to perform better .
2nd .as u r in Bangalore why dont you try demo Indiq & see what best u can feel & all ur queries can be discussed with Amit, may be u can find some more benefits.
3rd. As Indiq have 15 days trail run n no que asked return u use this to test at home & see the difference rather taking opinions ( this is my opinion to be safe & unnecessary spending ion trial n error basis or go for best with trail)
All the best for ur hunt....

 

[Amarendra]

I have a different experience
While I had my setup running on AVR, I always felt a hollowness in the sound and specially the action Movies.
The surrounds and Atmosphere were almost ineffective and the Front stage had the main role despite of running surrounds and atmos hot by 2-3DB.

After adding the Power Amps, I realised how the surrounds and Atmosphere came to life. The fronts stage did sound like a new set of speakers. The dynamics, comparative output from surrounds, rear and Atmos had an amazing balance for that immersive sound experience. It was real no placebo.

Probably even if the process of measuring the power requirement for speakers is accurate and acceptable, the scenes where actual peak power is required and that too with great balance and precision between the speakers ... Power Amps adds some magic.

It may only be true for my setup but this is my experience.

I was/am also a fan of power amps- the more (equipment) the merrier Ultimately I approached the issue with measurement just to take the subjective angle out of the argument. Based on subjective listening I felt that the Rotel amp had "improved" the sound. At one point I connected my Pioneer LX 302 AVR (fronts), Rotel integrated amp (2 Ch bridged for center) and another Chinese power amp (2 Ch) to the Denon 2500H. So at that time there were 2 AVRs, 1 power amp and 1 integrated amp powering 7 speakers.
But I wasn't ready to believe that the Denon 2500H couldn't properly power a set of speakers. So the starting point was to see how much power was actually being consumed in very heavy/ busy scenes. What came out shocked me. Now after the measurements I cater more to room treatment/ speaker placement rather than adding more equipment. I find the sound from the Denon 2500H to be more cohesive and clear. Few days back I was watching Bhool Bhulaaiya 2 on Netflix. Soon I forgot about the movie/ story and was just enjoying how crisp, clean and cohesive the sound was.
Like I said this may not appeal to most of us since we have a liking for more equipment but just my 2 cents....

 

[ankitbhargava]

I was/am also a fan of power amps- the more (equipment) the merrier Ultimately I approached the issue with measurement just to take the subjective angle out of the argument. Based on subjective listening I felt that the Rotel amp had "improved" the sound. At one point I connected my Pioneer LX 302 AVR (fronts), Rotel integrated amp (2 Ch bridged for center) and another Chinese power amp (2 Ch) to the Denon 2500H. So at that time there were 2 AVRs, 1 power amp and 1 integrated amp powering 7 speakers.
But I wasn't ready to believe that the Denon 2500H couldn't properly power a set of speakers. So the starting point was to see how much power was actually being consumed in very heavy/ busy scenes. What came out shocked me. Now after the measurements I cater more to room treatment/ speaker placement rather than adding more equipment. I find the sound from the Denon 2500H to be more cohesive and clear. Few days back I was watching Bhool Bhulaaiya 2 on Netflix. Soon I forgot about the movie/ story and was just enjoying how crisp, clean and cohesive the sound was.
Like I said this may not appeal to most of us since we have a liking for more equipment but just my 2 cents....

Definitely possible and agreed, one thing that I have dig deep in my brain is its impossible to generalise performance of a setup/equipment. Its so much influenced by Room itself, listener's own preference, ability to discern the details, expectations, content quality and player, other components in the setup etc.

 

[DB1989]

I was/am also a fan of power amps- the more (equipment) the merrier Ultimately I approached the issue with measurement just to take the subjective angle out of the argument. Based on subjective listening I felt that the Rotel amp had "improved" the sound. At one point I connected my Pioneer LX 302 AVR (fronts), Rotel integrated amp (2 Ch bridged for center) and another Chinese power amp (2 Ch) to the Denon 2500H. So at that time there were 2 AVRs, 1 power amp and 1 integrated amp powering 7 speakers.
But I wasn't ready to believe that the Denon 2500H couldn't properly power a set of speakers. So the starting point was to see how much power was actually being consumed in very heavy/ busy scenes. What came out shocked me. Now after the measurements I cater more to room treatment/ speaker placement rather than adding more equipment. I find the sound from the Denon 2500H to be more cohesive and clear. Few days back I was watching Bhool Bhulaaiya 2 on Netflix. Soon I forgot about the movie/ story and was just enjoying how crisp, clean and cohesive the sound was.
Like I said this may not appeal to most of us since we have a liking for more equipment but just my 2 cents....

Power amps are a rite of passage and no amount of anecdotal advice will dissuade a person in their quest for the same. Some things simply have to be experienced before you write them off.

The thing with audio is, nothing is a 100% applicable to everyone. Perhaps the OPs room is already very well damped or has goldilock dimensions in which case, a power amp could very much add to the experience (at least in the dynamics department).

You don't know what you don't know... until you know!

Hi all!
I'm running My KEF R300 from Exposure 2010 S2 stereo integrated amp, and I'm very happy with its performance. Infact this is the amp stayed with me longer time. I started with Marantz 6 series to 7, 8 and then all the way to Luxman L505, Exposure 3010, and back to Exposure 2010 s2.

Those are rather surprising changes i.e. from a Luxman 505 to an Exposure 3010 to an Exposure 2010 S2. Could you elaborate on what seems to be a rather counter intuitive progression?

 

[sandeepmohan]

It may not be accurate to the last degree but gives a ball park.

Not it does not. You're judging power handling of your AVR based on its power draw at the socket! How does that even give you a hint that all is well with the power being delivered to your loudspeaker?

Pick any modern day receiver with a power save mode. They refuse to budge outside their power threshold no matter hard you drive them. Are your speakers going to like this? Absolutely not.

Typically, most cross over our sub woofers at 60 or 80Hz for home theater applications. That value is a personal preference. When you do this, a majority of bass is handled by the sub woofer, not your main speakers or any of the other speakers. Your amplifier is relieved of this load. Most sub woofers sold today are more efficient than Class AB sub woofers sold over a decade ago. Their power draw isn't going to be much at all anyway. A peak will register as a tiny blip for a second at the most.

Its a different matter that you were unable to register a difference by adding a power amplifier. Maybe you don't need one. You maybe running efficient speakers and the power section of your AVR might be doing a good enough job, for you.

I would not conclude that this is the approach one must take to decide whether one needs an external power amplifier or not. That is not right.

 

[arj]

Hi all!
I'm running My KEF R300 from Exposure 2010 S2 stereo integrated amp, and I'm very happy with its performance. Infact this is the amp stayed with me longer time. I started with Marantz 6 series to 7, 8 and then all the way to Luxman L505, Exposure 3010, and back to Exposure 2010 s2.

I listen in low-volume and late-night sessions most of the time, i'm pretty happy with Exposure 2010 s2 .. i was thinking to add a power amp to make it more versatile and a bit more volume play in the daytime - with good control. recently i tested a vintage Quad power amp but i didn't like the combo. Maybe i'll have to look for an Exposure 3010 stereo power amp/ (not planning to go to monoblocks as of now). or how about other Indian brands, like Indiq platinum-saptak-monoblock-stereo-power-amp.. any experience/suggestions please. - My audio chain is in the signature.

thanks,
Noble

As some of the FMs have said above this is not about individual components but about the Amp/Speaker synergy.
Its not very clear about what you are looking for since one indictor of this is the dynamics of how the combination plays at low volumes and you seem to be ok with that.

The issue around higher volumes during the day may not necessarily be a power issue since 50W is more than enough for most speakers. it however may be an issue around dynamic power though.
since you are based in bangalore you can perhaps try out the Indiq audio as a home demo and see if it gives you what you are looking for in terms of additional power
Another angle is that the speaker room synergy is even more critical. Depending on the room size, a bookshelf speaker could be limited in it's ability to pressurize a room.