Adding Subwoofer to existing 2.0 setup

[robin3989]

What you have described is a perfect sub for music. A sub should add body (read: stage and depth) without being able to pinpoint its location. A music sub is not meant to be punchy ( unless that's what you were going for, to begin with). I have no experience with REL, but from what I have read, you have described the characteristic of REL precisely. REL owners should corroborate this. Think of the sound of the sub as luxurious, rather than SLAM, BAM, WHAM!

Thanks aeroash! The bass has definitely improved since yesterday, i now have to complete the FINAL BREAK-IN as REL recommends. This requires 10 hours of continuous music playback at low to medium volume levels. I'm worried about the power amp, which might suffer due to thermal stress. I'll hook up the old SMSL SA-98 class D (doesn't run hot) to effectively perform this process. I'll share the updates post the final break-in.

This takes 'trained ears'. You should know what to listen to. I was in a similar dilemma, but as time goes by you learn to 'Listen'. Audiophile tutorials online, mostly, are for audiophiles, they assume that you already have trained ears, once you do, it's easy. Have patience!

I understand that the mind has become cluttered with so many inputs and assumptions. The problem here is, i have listened to SVS SB2000 before purchasing REL T5/i. It was punchy and delivering chest pounding bass, i'm now trying different things to make REL sound as close to SVS which is a very BIG PROBLEM!! I realized.

I have always been listening to classical, folk and blues at low volume levels. I have recently purchased an used Musical Fidelity A1 amp and hence decided REL T5/i to enhance the overall music experience. For now, the REL blends beautifully with the main speakers, i'm hoping few tweaks will further improve the experience. As you have pointed out, the more time i spend listening to the setup, the better i learn to 'listen'.

 

[raghupb]

@robin3989
Congrats on acquiring REL T5/i.
This box will not give you thump like ported or large driver subs.
Yes, you'll realize the sub when you switch it off.
What you have described as initial impression is close to what I observed too with both T5/i and T9/i.

In my case:
REL T5/i (borrowed unit), I broke it in for about 2 hours and then auditioned it over 1.5 days
REL T/9i (purchased unit), broke it in over 4+ hours and then did continuous listen for about 6-8 hours.
I did all the break in and positioning using low level connect.
My preamp has a sub level adjuster, so it was easier to bump up the sub, yet keep mains low-ish volume.
The best position worked out to be a corner behind right speaker; wall reinforcement.
Fine tuning was done over a few listening sessions over a week or so.
Hi-level, I got to it only after a couple of weeks of tuning my ears to the sub.
And it was definitely better than low level, but I lose sub level at remote control.

Take you time to tune it to your liking. Use familiar tracks.
Try some live versions which highlight venue sound.
Reggae numbers are also a good choice

Cheers,
Raghu

 

[Shinto]

REL T5/i arrived Saturday evening.

Inside the Box:
Power cable, neutrik speakon connector, REL T5/i, user manual. Well packed, extra attention needed to ensure that the top side is cut open first to easily access the power cable and speakon connector. Being heavy, i tilted the box upside down so the subwoofer will stay on the ground and the box can be safely lifted. REL is a well built product, however care should be taken to extend the life of glossy piano finish.

Setting up:
Yesterday, I connected the sub to the high level output of power amp using the provided Neutrik speakon connectors and played the recommended Track 4 - Sneakers (Columbia CK 53146) for about 4 hours. I placed the sub in the front right corner behind the FR main speaker. I was also adjusting the sub position so, the pressure can be felt from the listening point but it's not that punchy. I have currently set the crossover at 12'o clock and the volume is somewhere between 10-11'o clock.

Listening Experience:
REL does add some body to the songs and this can be identified only by turning the sub off while listening and realising the same tracks going thin. Sometimes, there's no clue to even find if the sub responds at all, several times i go check if the sub is powered on or if the connections are all intact. This makes me feel that the sub is not positioned properly, or if the cross over/hi level aren't set correctly. Like i already said, the listening room is not in cuboid shape, so some fine tuning is needed. Can someone tell how many hours of playing bass heavy songs at medium volume levels will help break-in the driver? I'm expecting that the listening experience will improve once the driver is broken-in.

To find the perfect spot, i also tried placing the sub in the listening position and walked around the room to see if i can the sweet spot. Unfortunately this method didn't work, i could not hear any difference anywhere in the corners at all. @raghupb, or any REL T5/i owners please help on improving the overall sound.

REL T7(not T7i) user here.
What speakers do you have.?
I would set the the crossover lower or around the speakers and adjust the volume.
T5i should work for your room size.
In my case, the room is open on one side and the total area is around 350 sqft and my T7 works with corner placement(works in the sense that it fills the bottom range of music and you feel the loss when it is turned off, this is what I am looking for).It does not pressurize the room with my current setting i.e crossover around 9 o clock and volume around 12 o clock , may be it could pressurize the room better with crossover increased. I have tried this and it adds the thump but affects the midrange.
Please spend some time by moving the sub in small increments diagonally at the corner,Increase the volume and crossover settings, switch on and off the speakers etc...and get a feel of what the sub can actually do and not do in your room.
In my honest opinion , if the sub(and speakers) can't pressurise the room with sub positioned at the corner with a high volume and crossover setting, then simply it cant pressurise the room(or it can't do what you are expecting).
Having used other subs previously,unlike them, I think REL is very invisible in the sound picture.

 

[robin3989]

@robin3989
Congrats on acquiring REL T5/i.
This box will not give you thump like ported or large driver subs.
Yes, you'll realize the sub when you switch it off.
What you have described as initial impression is close to what I observed too with both T5/i and T9/i.

In my case:
REL T5/i (borrowed unit), I broke it in for about 2 hours and then auditioned it over 1.5 days
REL T/9i (purchased unit), broke it in over 4+ hours and then did continuous listen for about 6-8 hours.
I did all the break in and positioning using low level connect.
My preamp has a sub level adjuster, so it was easier to bump up the sub, yet keep mains low-ish volume.
The best position worked out to be a corner behind right speaker; wall reinforcement.
Fine tuning was done over a few listening sessions over a week or so.
Hi-level, I got to it only after a couple of weeks of tuning my ears to the sub.
And it was definitely better than low level, but I lose sub level at remote control.

Take you time to tune it to your liking. Use familiar tracks.
Try some live versions which highlight venue sound.
Reggae numbers are also a good choice

Cheers,
Raghu

Thanks Raghu for clarifying. I was also under the suspicion that the product that i received could be a faulty piece. Today, i played some familiar tracks and I must say that the bass has improved since yesterday as i have moved the sub diagonally a few inches away from the corner. This also made me reduce the crossover and volume setting so the bass is just enough for the tracks to sound beefier. With all your help, i'm confident that i can tune the REL to deliver the best experience.

 

[robin3989]

REL T7(not T7i) user here.
What speakers do you have.?
I would set the the crossover lower or around the speakers and adjust the volume.
T5i should work for your room size.
In my case, the room is open on one side and the total area is around 350 sqft and my T7 works with corner placement(works in the sense that it fills the bottom range of music and you feel the loss when it is turned off, this is what I am looking for).It does not pressurize the room with my current setting i.e crossover around 9 o clock and volume around 12 o clock , may be it could pressurize the room better with crossover increased. I have tried this and it adds the thump but affects the midrange.
Please spend some time by moving the sub in small increments diagonally at the corner,Increase the volume and crossover settings, switch on and off the speakers etc...and get a feel of what the sub can actually do and not do in your room.
In my honest opinion , if the sub(and speakers) can't pressurise the room with sub positioned at the corner with a high volume and crossover setting, then simply it cant pressurise the room(or it can't do what you are expecting).
Having used other subs previously,unlike them, I think REL is very invisible in the sound picture.

Hello Shinto,
Corner placement has improved the bass, and like you mentioned T5/i does pressurize the room upon increasing the crossover & volume however these high settings proportionally affect the midrange. I am hoping T5/i will sound better once the final beak-in is done.

 

[robin3989]

REL T7(not T7i) user here.
What speakers do you have.?
I would set the the crossover lower or around the speakers and adjust the volume.
T5i should work for your room size.
In my case, the room is open on one side and the total area is around 350 sqft and my T7 works with corner placement(works in the sense that it fills the bottom range of music and you feel the loss when it is turned off, this is what I am looking for).It does not pressurize the room with my current setting i.e crossover around 9 o clock and volume around 12 o clock , may be it could pressurize the room better with crossover increased. I have tried this and it adds the thump but affects the midrange.
Please spend some time by moving the sub in small increments diagonally at the corner,Increase the volume and crossover settings, switch on and off the speakers etc...and get a feel of what the sub can actually do and not do in your room.
In my honest opinion , if the sub(and speakers) can't pressurise the room with sub positioned at the corner with a high volume and crossover setting, then simply it cant pressurise the room(or it can't do what you are expecting).
Having used other subs previously,unlike them, I think REL is very invisible in the sound picture.

I have Fluance SX6 speakers, they have around 92 dB of sensitivity, response between 60Hz - 20KHz. So, per your suggestion, i have to set the crossover at 12'o clock? I have started reducing the crossover a few clicks down as i spend more time listening and currently, i have the crossover at 9'o clock and the volume up at 12'o clock.
I have to report that MF A1 + Fluance SX6 sound bright and i'm currently using EQ on my iPhone to cut down frequencies between 1K and 4Khz by -2db. Though, this works a bit, i don't like to fiddle with EQ and would like to keep the system flat. I'll slowly add a digital transport (Digione) and a DAC as budget permits, but is there anything i can do to control it? The room does not have mirrors or reflecting surfaces and 50% of the wall is curtain covered.

 

[aeroash]

I have Fluance SX6 speakers, they have around 92 dB of sensitivity, response between 60Hz - 20KHz. So, per your suggestion, i have to set the crossover at 12'o clock?

Try keeping the crossover at 70Hz on your sub. Usually a 10Hz overlap works in most cases.
What issue are you looking to solve exactly? I think you're trying to recreate the thump from SVS, and it has left you clouded. In my personal opinion I think you described the perfect sub for music when you first installed your REL. Just let it be for a few weeks, and you'll surely warm up to them.

I have to report that MF A1 + Fluance SX6 sound bright and i'm currently using EQ on my iPhone to cut down frequencies between 1K and 4Khz by -2db. Though, this works a bit, i don't like to fiddle with EQ and would like to keep the system flat. I'll slowly add a digital transport (Digione) and a DAC as budget permits, but is there anything i can do to control it? The room does not have mirrors or reflecting surfaces and 50% of the wall is curtain covered.

Only two options,. Room treatment, or Room Correction.
This has some interesting ideas

Sound diffusion panels--do they reduce brightness?

My listening room is still a little too brightThe doors behind the seating area have 2 absorbing panels. It has been suggested that adding 2 diffusion p...

forum.audiogon.com

If all fails, room Correction software is your only, and the easiest solution.
Good options would be the Mini DSP (tinker to your heart's content, comes with a steep learning curve, or the Paradigm PW Link, straight forward flat curve achieved in one minute flat!

 

[Shinto]

I have Fluance SX6 speakers, they have around 92 dB of sensitivity, response between 60Hz - 20KHz. So, per your suggestion, i have to set the crossover at 12'o clock? I have started reducing the crossover a few clicks down as i spend more time listening and currently, i have the crossover at 9'o clock and the volume up at 12'o clock.
I have to report that MF A1 + Fluance SX6 sound bright and i'm currently using EQ on my iPhone to cut down frequencies between 1K and 4Khz by -2db. Though, this works a bit, i don't like to fiddle with EQ and would like to keep the system flat. I'll slowly add a digital transport (Digione) and a DAC as budget permits, but is there anything i can do to control it? The room does not have mirrors or reflecting surfaces and 50% of the wall is curtain covered.

Hi Robin,
Crossover of 9 '0' clock in your case could be low.Try to bring the cross over up and play with the volume.The brightness may get tamed by doing so as you get a fuller sound.Again this could affect the midrange. Trial and error is your only option here.

 

[raghupb]

@robin3989
If the main speakers sound bright to you, fiddling with sub controls will not make it go away.
The sub only adds heft (or "wazan") to the bottom octave, if set up correctly.
Otherwise, as you and @Shinto have pointed out the mid range could get muddled.

You may want to check whether the 60Hz of the mains is the 3dB or 6dB number.
Ideally the sub should cover frequencies until the frequency where the mains start rolling off.
Some folks say it should cover up to -3dB, some say up to roll off start point; it is very subjective.
Since REL does not have any numerical markings, tuning is done only by ear.
Give it a few more dedicated listening/tweaking sessions. The rig will settle on your ear.
You may consider some basic room treatment, if possible.

Cheers,
Raghu

 

[liverpool_for_life]

@robin3989
If the main speakers sound bright to you, fiddling with sub controls will not make it go away.

Not necessarily, IMO. One of my acoustic consultants made an insightful observation the last time he visited to hear my setup: A lack of bass can often times be perceived as brightness.

 

[Shinto]

I am not sure if this video, in one of the upscale audio with RELs videos ,John from REL mentions 5 or 6 db under the main speakers If I remember correctly

 

[Shinto]

Not necessarily, IMO. One of my acoustic consultants made an insightful observation the last time he visited to hear my setup: A lack of bass can often times be perceived as brightness.

I have experienced this as well.
I am not disagreeing with @ raghupb.A bright setup sound signature is not going to go away with a sub added.
But it can be tamed to an extend in my humble opinion.
It is interesting to see how much of an effect the bass actually has on midrange and even high frequencies.

 

[raghupb]

Not necessarily, IMO. One of my acoustic consultants made an insightful observation the last time he visited to hear my setup: A lack of bass can often times be perceived as brightness.

I have experienced this as well.
I am not disagreeing with @ raghupb.A bright setup sound signature is not going to go away with a sub added.
But it can be tamed to an extend in my humble opinion.
It is interesting to see how much of an effect the bass actually has on midrange and even high frequencies.

Lack of bass usually will sound lean (and/or bright). Is it possible to tame, maybe.
It depends on what one perceives as "bright".
Say the sub is operating up to 80 Hz. At this nominal cutoff even the 9th order harmonic is at ~700Hz.

When listening to speakers, I usually try to figure out what the tweeters are up to.
For me a noisy frequency range above say 3-4 KHz is what can make me walk away from a music session.
So yeah, adding a sub will definitely round off the bottom octave/s.
Also add something to mid range maybe up 500-1000 Hz; good/bad depends on output level.
Beyond that perceived "brightness" is usually a function of speaker and up chain components.

In all the rigs/expts at home, I've found that inherently bright speakers (e.g MA Radius 45s) pose listening fatigue.
With the sub in play, I have negotiated a compromise with the system and listen accordingly.
The compromise being, use it for background listening while doing other stuff. (Alt-chain in signature)
When I find that rare window, home to myself and whiskey by my side, the KEFs, REL, Tubes, etc are in play

Hope @robin3989 finds that sweet spot/range that works in his rig.
Cheers,
Raghu

 

[robin3989]

Try keeping the crossover at 70Hz on your sub. Usually a 10Hz overlap works in most cases.

I have the crossover set somewhere near to 60 hz and the volume up at 11'o clock. This works well and i'm liking my sub better now. Particularly when i listen to bass heavy songs. The corner placement is further tuned so the bass is felt just right from the listening position and also other corners of the room. I pulled the speakers 2 feet away from the wall and they sound clean now. I think 3ft will improve it further but, the speaker wires aren't that long, i placed the amp in the tv cabinet close to the wall.

Just let it be for a few weeks, and you'll surely warm up to them.

True!! I can say that the 'sub completes the setup'

Only two options,. Room treatment, or Room Correction.

I moved, replaced some furnitures, exposed few things that were once locked. I think, now the sound is not that bright at all. The speaker grills are also positioned in a way that they cover the tweeter alone and not the woofer.

 

[robin3989]

Hi Robin,
Crossover of 9 '0' clock in your case could be low.Try to bring the cross over up and play with the volume.The brightness may get tamed by doing so as you get a fuller sound.Again this could affect the midrange. Trial and error is your only option here.

This is true, keeping the crossover just 1 or 2 clicks below the optimal level and playing with the volume does the trick. The mid-range is clean and has enough body to it.

Give it a few more dedicated listening/tweaking sessions. The rig will settle on your ear.
You may consider some basic room treatment, if possible.

Few changes i made to the room using furniture placement, curtains, exposing objects have clearly helped tame down the brightness. Also, i have recently added a DAC and now i play songs from my laptop connected to the DAC, this definitely has added some warmth to the sound. I must say iPhone is not a good source and it was simply one of the main causes for system sounding bright.

A bright setup sound signature is not going to go away with a sub added.
But it can be tamed to an extend in my humble opinion.
It is interesting to see how much of an effect the bass actually has on midrange and even high frequencies.

Correct. I have recently connected my amp to an old KEF Q35 floorstanders and they sounded so relaxed, slow and more laid-back. Speakers that i currently have are forward sounding with MF A1.

 

[robin3989]

Posting an update on this old thread.




Locally picked up these used Castle Inversion 15 speakers and the sound is now on the warmer side. The highs are smooth and detailed. The soundstage is not too wide, but the image is clear and appear at the center for most of the songs.

@Shinto I would like your suggestions on creating bigger soundstage without thinning down or scatterring the image. As you can see from the pic, the speakers are placed approximately 1.8 meters apart and 30 inches away from the front wall. I experimented moving the speakers closer to each other, close to the front wall, but the current positioning works fine. I know different positions work for different speakers, but in general what's the optimal placement for bigger soundstage?