Affordable Music PC with External DAC

[panditji]

Would like to discuss affordable/practical options for playing music from PC/Laptop/Netbook - DAC (around $500-700) through the hifi systems...

Is JPlay/Foobar + Fidelizer - Cheap Netbook with only Windows 8 - Schiit Bifrost/Halide HD/W4S DAC1/ a good option ???

Please feel free to add more options in the above chain for everybody's benefit within the same budget and suggest more options which do not increase costs significantly yet bring substantial improvements in sound...

Options like 2 laptops with JPlay and using expensive high end DACs are not affordable or practical for everyone...

When suggesting DACs please do mention if you were able to audition and hence find it better or mention the links where others have auditioned and stated their views....

 

[panditji]

Sorry if my question seems silly, but is a soundcard required in the Laptop/PC/Netbook if using an external DAC?

Also has anybody done a comparison between a good sound card installed such as Asus Essence in a PC v/s external DAC < $500? Can the sound card better the external DAC in that price range?

 

[tirthankar]

I used an Asus Essence STX until I moved to an external DAC (PS Audio DL3 w/ Cullen mod) and it was in a different league from the Essence STX.

Major differentiating factors for me between the sound card and the DAC was a much a blacker background giving more fleshed out images, more depth and weight in the music (tonal weight, especially in midrange, as well as bass depth), and a lot smoother and natural top end. Compared to it, the STX sounded almost light weight and sibilant. In short, in almost every aspect it was better than the Essence STX.. albeit at a higher price.
I don't know about the other DACs you mentioned, but for me the W4S DAC1 will beat a sound card like the STX any day.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

There are sound cards with really good analogue outputs.

Sadly, the marketing men have drawn a line and convinced people that they must have a "standalone DAC," and nothing else will do. That means we don't even see much in the way of comparative reviews including sound cards as well as "DACs"

This isn't all the hifi marketing men's fault. If all you want to do is to play music, when you look at the sound card/interface, you'll find there are few that do not come with a bewildering range of functions, most of which you do not need and do not want to pay for.

First, sound cards are for recording as well as playing. ADC as well as DAC. Immediately that's twice the functionality, and, if they have both digital and analogue input and output, more like four times the functionality. Then, as these devices are aimed at home/semipro-studio users, there may even be mic and instrument inputs and preamps too. A basic but high quality sound card with, simply, stereo in/out is not that easy to find any longer.

Do you ever ever ever want to record anything? It doesn't have to be your band's next album, it could be digitising vinyl or tapes, or your baby singing. If you ever want to record, you need a sound card/interface.

Are you happy to never, ever, do any recording? Do you look at a sound card and wonder why you should be paying for its extra functions? You need a DAC

 

[panditji]

I used an Asus Essence STX until I moved to an external DAC (PS Audio DL3 w/ Cullen mod) and it was in a different league from the Essence STX.

Major differentiating factors for me between the sound card and the DAC was a much a blacker background giving more fleshed out images, more depth and weight in the music (tonal weight, especially in midrange, as well as bass depth), and a lot smoother and natural top end. Compared to it, the STX sounded almost light weight and sibilant. In short, in almost every aspect it was better than the Essence STX.. albeit at a higher price.
I don't know about the other DACs you mentioned, but for me the W4S DAC1 will beat a sound card like the STX any day.

Thanks for getting this point straight...however it would help if you could share the cost of the PS Audio DAC that you use which will help putting things in perspective......

My next question would be the amount of difference in sound quality between a sub $500 DAC such as the Bifrost, Halide HD and a $1500 DAC such as the PS Audios/NorthStar Essence/Wadia 121/W4S DAC1 and 2?

Has anybody actually been able to compare some of the above listed DACs with the same or similar chain of equipment?

 

[anm]

you can go for mac mini + external dac. It has optical spdif out as well as usb - so you can use a very good old dac without usb which you may find a deal for (I am looking for one as well) or the latest breed of async usb dac.

 

[arj]

you can go for mac mini + external dac. It has optical spdif out as well as usb - so you can use a very good old dac without usb which you may find a deal for (I am looking for one as well) or the latest breed of async usb dac.

i would recommend going for a cheaper USB-SPDIF converter instead of the optical out. this has lots of Jitter

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

In principle, I dislike conversion, adapters, connectors and any extra thing that comes between one device and another (is telepathy the best interconnect? ). If buying from scratch, with PC (especially laptop, which is unlikely to come with any other digital-out option) as source, why not go straight for a known-good USB implementation, rather than buying a DAC with excellent S/PDIF but not-so-good USB?

On the other hand, I recently read an interview with the designers of a convertor (was it m2tech? Not sure now, can search only later) with the converter at the S/PDIF end, the idea being that there was no S/PDIF cable to worry about, and whatever happened in the USB cable was rendered irrelevant by the converter technology. (Please excuse innacurate memory/paraphrasing.) If one needs to go for a converter, then it made a lot of sense.

(a lot of this stuff seems to old cynical me to be a matter of audiophile fashion: one day a toslink connector is great because it's electrically insulated, the next it is full of jitter and not great at all --- and so on)

My next question would be the amount of difference in sound quality between a sub $500 DAC such as the Bifrost, Halide HD and a $1500 DAC such as the PS Audios/NorthStar Essence/Wadia 121/W4S DAC1 and 2?

I have no idea. I hope, over the next few weeks, to make a comparison between my recently-acquired ODAC, which comes at a pretty minimal price, and some higher-budget DAC courtesy of other Chennai forum members. Capt Rajesh is first on the list. Online, forum members Denom and Bhagwan come to mind (I'm sure there are many others) with high-budget DACs from respected manufacturers.

There are several items on my DAC/HP-amp wishlist in excess of 1lakh: some of them very much in excess! Sometimes the high price serves to increase desirability, lusting after the unobtainable and all that

Options like 2 laptops with JPlay and using expensive high end DACs are not affordable or practical for everyone...

Then you are probably not in the market for a high-price DAC? My very personal opinion is that I would rather put the money into a "better" DAC/interface than a second PC.

I don't use Jplay because I don't use Windows. If you do use Windows, then, by all means, do whatever you can to optimise the machine for audio playback. Apart from that, my views that a lot of the stuff that "audiophiles" and the companies that exploit them have brought to PC audio is just puffery and scams are well known .

PCs give us the possibility of lots of experiment and messing with. Hours of endless fun, and why not? Enjoy, but be careful what you listen to, and especially careful who you give the money to!

 

[gopib]

Thanks Thad!! I just enlarged my vocabulary....Puffery...:lol:

Wiki...
Puffery as a legal term refers to promotional statements and claims that express subjective rather than objective views, which no "reasonable person" would take literally.[1] Puffery serves to "puff up" an exaggerated image of what is being described and is especially featured in testimonials.

:clapping::clapping:

There is lot of puffery in the air these days.....

 

[hydra]

I used to use the analog output of the Xonar STX in my Music PC for a while. During that time, I still had my Beresford Caiman with me.

I had compared the STX with the Caiman, then, with the PC as the source. That is,

PC > STX Analogue outs > Amp > Speakers

VS.

PC > STX Coaxial digital out > Caiman > Amp > Speakers

As far as using the two with the amp and speakers are concerned, they sounded very similar, and actually without listening to a lot of music with both, it was difficult to tell the difference. The biggest differences between the two I'd felt was that:

- The STX is a little bit more airier. But this at times makes it sound a bit thin.
- The Caiman has slightly better bass weight and better overall body.

They sound essentially similar probably because both use the LM4562 (NA version in Caiman) OPAMP.

Over time, I'd started to feel the STX's analogue outs were a bit lacking in body and that is the reason why I'd bought a Rega DAC. The Rega is far, far superior to the STX's analog outputs.

For about 9K, the STX is a killer deal. The Caiman came to about 15K and the Coaxial cable I used to use with it then as a source added another 1.5K. Between a 9K STX and a 16Kplus DAC+cable combo, the STX is far, far, better value. In fact, I think that the STX would be able to hold it's own with most DACs in the under 20k range.

 

[tirthankar]

There are sound cards with really good analogue outputs.

Sadly, the marketing men have drawn a line and convinced people that they must have a "standalone DAC," and nothing else will do. That means we don't even see much in the way of comparative reviews including sound cards as well as "DACs"

This isn't all the hifi marketing men's fault. If all you want to do is to play music, when you look at the sound card/interface, you'll find there are few that do not come with a bewildering range of functions, most of which you do not need and do not want to pay for.

First, sound cards are for recording as well as playing. ADC as well as DAC. Immediately that's twice the functionality, and, if they have both digital and analogue input and output, more like four times the functionality. Then, as these devices are aimed at home/semipro-studio users, there may even be mic and instrument inputs and preamps too. A basic but high quality sound card with, simply, stereo in/out is not that easy to find any longer.

Do you ever ever ever want to record anything? It doesn't have to be your band's next album, it could be digitising vinyl or tapes, or your baby singing. If you ever want to record, you need a sound card/interface.

Are you happy to never, ever, do any recording? Do you look at a sound card and wonder why you should be paying for its extra functions? You need a DAC

Thad.. I agree to your always taking the pains of pointing out sound cards as music interfaces.. While there definitely are good sound cards with a good analog out(like the essence which I still say is excellent for the price), when one moves up the quality chain the price unfortunately increases disproportionately with the analog output quality, because at that level they do many things other than digital to analog conversion.
I believe.. When spending for something, its always best to get whatever is specialized for the purpose. In panditji's case, who I "think" is only interested in playback(correct me if I'm wrong), that will be a DAC.

Thanks for getting this point straight...however it would help if you could share the cost of the PS Audio DAC that you use which will help putting things in perspective......

I got the dac used off eBay for 700$. Unfortunately the company has stopped producing this particular DAC. last I checked, a new unmodded PS audio was available for around 500$ after a big price reduction by the company.

I may be inviting flames from some members, but as per my experience, an external DAC with a properly regulated linear power supply is at least much quieter than any similar PC based card.. And that affects the resulting sound quality in a big way, all other things in the DACs being equal. If you look through the Internet, you will find reports of people going to great lengths in modifying the stx's power supply by decoupling it from the PC supply and using it with a dedicated linear PS.

While the stx/st is excellent for the price (I mention this card all the time, as I have heard the auzen prelude, creative x-fi etc and this card is still my preference for an affordable PC soundcard for music playback through analog out), if you go upto 500 usd and more, where you can get well designed DACs with quality power supplies.. For me stx starts getting out of favor for the things.
I think an FM (hydra I think) earlier used the essence stx and then switched to a rega DAC since he preferred the sound quality.

I will second the suggestions of a simple laptop with either a good async DAC, or usb-spdif converter.

 

[hydra]

...
I think an FM (hydra I think) earlier used the essence stx and then switched to a rega DAC since he preferred the sound quality.

...

Yes, that was me. I just posted a couple of minutes before you did

I'd support the investment in an external DAC for a few more (non sound-quality) reasons:

1) We aren't tied down to the same PC.

2) We can use any device that gives a digital output (USB/Coaxial/Optical at the very least) with an external DAC (assuming the DAC accepts these 3 basic inputs).

3) Reselling and upgrading is easier. I don't think a 3-4 year old soundcard will command a very reasonable price, and the number of possible buyer would also be less. This is low priority, but having this advantage does count.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

I believe.. When spending for something, its always best to get whatever is specialized for the purpose. In panditji's case, who I "think" is only interested in playback(correct me if I'm wrong), that will be a DAC.

Absolutely agree, and I get so frustrated, when looking for an interface, that companies like RME, who's quality I would like to buy, no longer make "simple" 2-in-2-out cards.

I really do think it is better to focus the spend and not pay for features never to be used. In this respect, buying a simple USB-only DAC is a new departure for me and, unless I magically become able to afford something like the Lynx Hilo, my intention is now to explore the DAC/HP-amp branch of the tree. My Echo Audiofire remains available for recording.

What I would probably not do, and certainly not without basing it on experience first, is to buy one of the high-end cards from Lynx, RME, etc, and then ignore the analogue outputs. Does one need a soundcard and a DAC? Not if it is a really good sound card. One can only find that out by trying...

 

[panditji]

you can go for mac mini + external dac. It has optical spdif out as well as usb - so you can use a very good old dac without usb which you may find a deal for (I am looking for one as well) or the latest breed of async usb dac.

A Mac Mini + External DAC is going to cost almost a lakh or more....Can we try and find options using existing laptops or cheaper netbooks (they start at Rs.17000 with decent specs)...the netbooks with Windows 8 installed used only for the purpose of music should be better than the Apple laptops with the recent upgrades to the Windows audio softwares......

 

[panditji]

I used to use the analog output of the Xonar STX in my Music PC for a while. During that time, I still had my Beresford Caiman with me.

I had compared the STX with the Caiman, then, with the PC as the source. That is,

PC > STX Analogue outs > Amp > Speakers

VS.

PC > STX Coaxial digital out > Caiman > Amp > Speakers

As far as using the two with the amp and speakers are concerned, they sounded very similar, and actually without listening to a lot of music with both, it was difficult to tell the difference. The biggest differences between the two I'd felt was that:

- The STX is a little bit more airier. But this at times makes it sound a bit thin.
- The Caiman has slightly better bass weight and better overall body.

They sound essentially similar probably because both use the LM4562 (NA version in Caiman) OPAMP.

Over time, I'd started to feel the STX's analogue outs were a bit lacking in body and that is the reason why I'd bought a Rega DAC. The Rega is far, far superior to the STX's analog outputs.

For about 9K, the STX is a killer deal. The Caiman came to about 15K and the Coaxial cable I used to use with it then as a source added another 1.5K. Between a 9K STX and a 16Kplus DAC+cable combo, the STX is far, far, better value. In fact, I think that the STX would be able to hold it's own with most DACs in the under 20k range.

That is exactly the kind of posts I am looking for in this thread...it is a great that you could compare the STX with an entry level DAC and find the sound very similar....so in conclusion to your experiment, it makes sense to stick to a good soundcard till the time you do not graduate to a very good DAC......

Also wanted to know your impressions about the Rega DAC..have heard good stuff about it but would be great if you could share your impressions...

 

[panditji]

In principle, I dislike conversion, adapters, connectors and any extra thing that comes between one device and another (is telepathy the best interconnect? ). If buying from scratch, with PC (especially laptop, which is unlikely to come with any other digital-out option) as source, why not go straight for a known-good USB implementation, rather than buying a DAC with excellent S/PDIF but not-so-good USB?

On the other hand, I recently read an interview with the designers of a convertor (was it m2tech? Not sure now, can search only later) with the converter at the S/PDIF end, the idea being that there was no S/PDIF cable to worry about, and whatever happened in the USB cable was rendered irrelevant by the converter technology. (Please excuse innacurate memory/paraphrasing.) If one needs to go for a converter, then it made a lot of sense.

(a lot of this stuff seems to old cynical me to be a matter of audiophile fashion: one day a toslink connector is great because it's electrically insulated, the next it is full of jitter and not great at all --- and so on)



I have no idea. I hope, over the next few weeks, to make a comparison between my recently-acquired ODAC, which comes at a pretty minimal price, and some higher-budget DAC courtesy of other Chennai forum members. Capt Rajesh is first on the list. Online, forum members Denom and Bhagwan come to mind (I'm sure there are many others) with high-budget DACs from respected manufacturers.

There are several items on my DAC/HP-amp wishlist in excess of 1lakh: some of them very much in excess! Sometimes the high price serves to increase desirability, lusting after the unobtainable and all that
Then you are probably not in the market for a high-price DAC? My very personal opinion is that I would rather put the money into a "better" DAC/interface than a second PC.

I don't use Jplay because I don't use Windows. If you do use Windows, then, by all means, do whatever you can to optimise the machine for audio playback. Apart from that, my views that a lot of the stuff that "audiophiles" and the companies that exploit them have brought to PC audio is just puffery and scams are well known .

PCs give us the possibility of lots of experiment and messing with. Hours of endless fun, and why not? Enjoy, but be careful what you listen to, and especially careful who you give the money to!

Would love to hear your unbiased impressions about all the DACs starting from the ODAC to the higher versions..... Do let us know how much of a difference was there in approximate percentages vis a vis how much more airier, blacker, space of instruments (whatever that means) or simply let us know your preference of DAC in order....

 

[panditji]

Thad.. I agree to your always taking the pains of pointing out sound cards as music interfaces.. While there definitely are good sound cards with a good analog out(like the essence which I still say is excellent for the price), when one moves up the quality chain the price unfortunately increases disproportionately with the analog output quality, because at that level they do many things other than digital to analog conversion.
I believe.. When spending for something, its always best to get whatever is specialized for the purpose. In panditji's case, who I "think" is only interested in playback(correct me if I'm wrong), that will be a DAC.


I got the dac used off eBay for 700$. Unfortunately the company has stopped producing this particular DAC. last I checked, a new unmodded PS audio was available for around 500$ after a big price reduction by the company.

I may be inviting flames from some members, but as per my experience, an external DAC with a properly regulated linear power supply is at least much quieter than any similar PC based card.. And that affects the resulting sound quality in a big way, all other things in the DACs being equal. If you look through the Internet, you will find reports of people going to great lengths in modifying the stx's power supply by decoupling it from the PC supply and using it with a dedicated linear PS.

While the stx/st is excellent for the price (I mention this card all the time, as I have heard the auzen prelude, creative x-fi etc and this card is still my preference for an affordable PC soundcard for music playback through analog out), if you go upto 500 usd and more, where you can get well designed DACs with quality power supplies.. For me stx starts getting out of favor for the things.
I think an FM (hydra I think) earlier used the essence stx and then switched to a rega DAC since he preferred the sound quality.

I will second the suggestions of a simple laptop with either a good async DAC, or usb-spdif converter.

Absolutely, I am looking for a simple PC/DAC combo which will playback music stored as FLACs and MP3s.....the simpler it is the better...

 

[hydra]

...so in conclusion to your experiment, it makes sense to stick to a good soundcard till the time you do not graduate to a very good DAC......

Yes, I'd say exactly this.

Also wanted to know your impressions about the Rega DAC..have heard good stuff about it but would be great if you could share your impressions...

My impression about the Rega DAC are here (post #104):
http://www.hifivision.com/my-audio-video-setup/17554-making-baby-steps-into-hi-fi-11.html

My impressions are unchanged from then. The quality of sound was a HUGE step up from the STX. I don't think I'll be upgrading the DAC ever: I'm that happy with it still. I love the sound signature, the pace & rhythm, and the really deep soundstage that the DAC throws. The only thing I'm not so happy about the DAC, is the way it looks.

It has 4 filters, the differences between which are quite minuscule. Over time, I've gravitated towards filter 4 as my preferred setting. I found 1, 2 & 3 to sound mostly the same. To me, filter 4 has the most balanced sound: It is less bass-heavy than 1, 2 & 3 and it clearly throws the deepest and widest soundstage of all the filters. Filter 5 seems to dry up the sound, with the bass decay cut dramatically. It does sound good, but somehow I keep coming back to 4.

Reportedly, it's USB input is not to par (it is not Async), though Rega says that it should sound as good as any Async DAC. I've used it just to see how it sounds and it did sound 'harder' and less appealing to me than the coaxial input. But then, I never intended to use the USB input anyway, so it does not matter to me at all!

 

[bhagwan]

Absolutely, I am looking for a simple PC/DAC combo which will playback music stored as FLACs and MP3s.....the simpler it is the better...

Sir,
If mp3 is to be used, there cannot be a better solution than an i-pod.
It is a brilliant product.
Keep music in mp3 stored there & play via a 'good' cable - phono jack to rca direct to your NAD = this is a well priced & effective solution;;;
I would recommend it.
80gb should be more than enough to store lots of music in mp3 format..Besides load Amarra on the I=Pod & the sound quality will improve even further;
Sonic Studio Amarra High Resolution Music Players and Professional Audio Mastering Systems

 

[panditji]

Mazher, you seem to be right but then I have always wanted a single simple solution rather than multiple options... I have never used any MP3 player as I find playing music through the laptop the simplest....

I have both FLACs and MP3s (not possible to get FLACs for all music) and would like 1 laptop, 1 music software player, 1 DAC, 1 integrated amp but 2 speakers......Therefore my quest for a simple, cost effective solution with the best possible sound considering the constraints....
I prefer spending hours finding a particular version of a tune I like than changing hardware/software for different formats or genres of music....