Amps for Usher Mini Dancer - Help me decide budget and brand

[srramanujam]

Request your help in a) deciding the right budget for an amp to match Usher Mini Dancer, b) the choices that i should consider and hear and c) placement of speakers.

I will shortly receive Usher Mini Dancer 1 floorstanding speakers. I have to now choose a) the amp and b) the source (more or less settled on a HTPC).

My listening choices are mostly Indian (90%) and bit of Old age rock and pop (10%). Within Indian it is carnatic classical vocal and instrumental (40%), Hindustani instrumental (30%) and Film (20%).

When i started the hifi search, i had an initial budget of 60K. I have blown much much more than that in the speakers itself. So my first help is in deciding the right budget that will do justice to the speakers and to the kind of music that i would listen to (largely at low volumes). I am unlikely (hopefully) to upgrade in the future.

Secondly, that are the brands that i should consider and hear. Since my initial budget was 60K, later upped to 100K and then reconciled to 200K, most of the amps that i heard were budget (in my initial searches). Later on i heard Musical Fidelity in Chennai and Shindo + Operetta in Mumbai, during speaker auditions. I didnt give too much attention or thought to the brands that i should look at then.

I went through the long thread of Mr Asit on the amp for canton speakers. I have a word version of it with me (it was 272 pages in word in August 2009). Like it happens, i have ended up without any clarity, more so because the Cantons are high sensitivity while the Ushers are on the lower side.

The room configuration is a little odd. It is L shaped Living cum dining room. The living area is 22ft x 10 ft. The seating area is fixed on one end of the long length. The dining area (the arm of L) is another 9ft x 11ft. I have attached a ppt and a picture of the living room (taken from the seating area).

Given this room size, speakers and choice of music, what are the brands that you would recommend?

Lastly, i am getting tied up in knots deciding the speaker placement. Sridhar mentioned that 2 ft from side walls does justice, but that would get the speakers into the middle of the room. At the best i can manage 1 foot (dont ask me why i choose the floorstander then, that was the first set). In the ppt, i have placed two red boxes which could the approx placement of speakers to give about 10 ft from the soft (which is against the wall). Request your suggestions on placement and anything i can put on the wall to manage reflections. There is a 10 x 6 carpet and i would appreciate if you can tell me how best to use it.

 

[Asit]

I went through the long thread of Mr Asit on the amp for canton speakers. I have a word version of it with me (it was 272 pages in word in August 2009). Like it happens, i have ended up without any clarity, more so because the Cantons are high sensitivity while the Ushers are on the lower side.

Hi Ramanujam,

I do not know what I have done to deserve a "Mr" in front of my name . There is no need for it for the purposes of our discussion.

Well, my thread is not specific for my Canton speakers. Most of it is very general, only a part of it is for low wattage amps and highly sensitive speakers like mine. I have now made an index which is included in the first post of the thread and roughly directs the readers to the appropriate part of the discussion.

IMHO, you need a powerful clean amp with some emphasis on the power supply section (beefy transformer, large capacitor banks etc) to extract the best out of those speakers. I have heard both the tiny and mini dancers a number of times here at Kolkata, and this is the impression I got. They could be driven even with a 10 wpc amp, and this is probably because impedance perhaps does not drop suddenly. Sridhar may have a comment here. However, I do not think that way the best of either the amp or the speakers is exploited.

More later. Meanwhile an indication of the sponsorship for the 3rd set would restrict the available options .

Regards.

 

[jai1611]

The 840A isnt really comparable to the 840W as far as power reserves and dynamics go.

I've only ever heard the Mini Dancers with the Odyssey Stratos Extreme. Good sounding combo but utterly unforgiving . These speakers are a couple of notches above the BE718 as far as sheer transparency goes so do pair them carefully (my favourite Don McLean recording sounded like rubbish on these but ok on the BE718).

 

[anm]

I saw the ppt. It is a difficult placement. Since you are sitting 10 ft from speakers, and speakers themselves would be 8 ft apart, with side walls just being 1 ft from the speakers, in my mind there is a picture that you would get to hear multiple reflections from the walls. Otherwise your decision of distances looks quite fine - almost an equilateral triangle.
I would suggest (man proposed, wife disposes) that you place speakers on the bigger wall, and your sofa against the other wall, and do some damping of the rear wall. How to convince - hanging a wall carpet can hide that wet spot - quite lame but may work also speakers would be in your way when you walk to the swing. Where would your TV go in your proposed layout?
You may retain the sofa location but place a small chair(s) against the left wall for your critical listening.

 

[anm]

actually - I myself sit in such a situation where my sofa is stuck against the rear wall - and I have not myself done any damping at the back. I can't do much to my current listening/ living room as it is a rented place. I hope once (whenever that happens) I move back to my house, there would be a lot of space at the back. Damn traffic!

 

[odyssey]

Hi Ram
Are you looking for an integrated amp or do you plan to control volume through the PC, in which case you need only an amp. With regards to tube amps, the tube amps that I am familiar with which our customers are using (or we use in our showroom) are probably beyond the budget that you have indicated so no point venturing there. The MD-1 dips to 6 ohms min, its not a hard speaker to drive. You have a decent size room though, so its best to keep power reserves in mind. The Operetta and Odyssey Khartago fall in your budget range. I believe the Naim will do well. There is a Cary integrated that sounded good with the MD-1 as well. Avoid the Cyrus. As Cranky said, keep in mind that the MD-1 is not as laid back as the Be-718, so the softer sounding amps may be to your liking, especially as you liked the Be-718 sound.

cheers

 

[srramanujam]

Asit,
No fixed budget for the amps as of now. I am OK with spending the right amount that the speakers would require. I feel this could get to the 1.0L - 1.5L range.

Cranky, anm
The side walls are ruled out since the sofa wont be moved. I agree with my wife on this since the view from the sofa is amazing (looks into the garden with mango trees all dark in the photo though, taken last night at midnight).

The listening distance can be around ten feet since I can bring the speakers forward closer to the sofa. Based on the feedback in the forum, I am going for an SS amp.

Sridhar,
I would prefer the integrated since it gives me flexibility on the source.

Soundsgreat has suggested that I should keep the placement issue aside for the time being, since it is anyway going to be a bit tough. So, I will stick to my first two questions the budget (is the 1-1.5 right budget, high or low, and the brands I can look at in this budget).

 

[thevortex]

Hello Ramanujam, I can see you already have had the experts pitch in with their views. On my part I am just going to reiterate what we spoke about over phone sometime back. When you are spending close to 2 lakhs over the audio system, I think its got to be properly placed. This L shaped room is going to be OK for a home theatre but not for an audio system. Knowing you and meticulous preferences this might ultimately end up being a let down.

Despite all the inconveniences attached, I would really, really recommend for the system to be located in a discrete room of your house - even if small. That would be certainly better than the L shaped hall, or so I think. The problems with floorstanders being located in small rooms may also be mitigated owing to your admittedly low listening volumes.

And since you are going to be getting the speakers home before the amp, this might be the best scenario to perhaps ask Viren for a 6CC3 SET demonstration piece and see how it goes with these speakers.

I still remember so many people categorically stating that my EPOS speakers of 87 db sensitivity will certainly not work with a 2.5 watt tube amp. But then as you know they did work reasonably well. Am definitely not trying to disagree with the suggestions of our eminent members. I dont know anywhere near as much as them. Just saying that perhaps our ears should be the best judge of our audio system. And in this, I am sure all will agree.

 

[suri]

ask Viren for a 6CC3 SET demonstration piece and see how it goes with these speakers.

hi thevortex - srramanujam has indicated in his post (the one just prior to yours) that he will be buying SS amp.

 

[Asit]

Hi Vortex

With due respect to your judgement, I beg to differ, although it's true that unless one tries out one does not know. I have heard my Leben CS300 with the Usher Mini Dancers 1. So did Pratim and AE of this forum at Cranky's place. It did very well, and if you did not not ever hear anything else, you'd be happy, may be even very happy at least with certain kinds of music. But then if you have a chance to hear the same Leben with my Cantons, then only one would realize what more the amp and also the speakers are capable of. Similarly I realized what the tiny dancers are capable of when it was paired with the Operetta amp and the Ayon CD1 source. Actually I think the tiny dancers can withstand even one more amp upgrade. I believe once one is prepared to pay a certain amount of money, opportinities open up for proper matching which will boost the synergy maximizing the output which would never be achievable by just assembling individually brillliant products. There is no doubt in my mind that those speakers need lavish reserves of power for them to sound to their ultimate potential.

I agree with you totally on the room. It's going to be a tricky adjustment. Putting speakers only about 7 feet apart may restrict the soundstage appreciably. Ram needs to put them well in front of the back walls to avoid boominess. Now in this kind of an arrangement unless you toe in there will be reflections from the side walls and very poor imaging would result as cranky has pointed out. But if you do too much toeing in, the listening sweet spot will have to be quite near field. I'd actually prefer a tube amp in such a situation (Prem has his equipment set up exactly in this way). But I do not know which ones because Ram would need some serious power reserves to make those speakers sing. Would a CS600 work? Anything else (tube) with a decent quality would be insanely expensive. A Manley would have worked I'd guess, but we do not get them here in India, do we?

Regards.

 

[thevortex]

I read that suri. But that was not there at the time I started composing my message. Hence the confusion.

 

[thevortex]

Asit - I sure do understand where Cranky comes from with the Watts point. It is just that I happen to know Ramanujam's listening preferences and he may not be after that last bit of slam that people might be looking for. Again as you very well know it is also a function of the kind of music one listens to.

I am quite sure there must be better options though. And he is in knowledgeable hands now.

 

[odyssey]

Ram
I should have read your first post a bit more closely. For some reason I thought your budget was limited for the entire system to under 2L, since this is not the case, you should have a lot more possibilities. If you are willing to go higher then this may open up some possibilities for some powerful tube amps as well. All audio (in this range) is about compromise. In the end its about what you are willing to compromise with. With the MD-1's among the tube amps that I have tried, some have given outstanding microdynamics and transparency, however they leave a void in the macro dynamcis and slam, while the Ayon tube amps that I have tried worked very well for me except for the last bit of slam, however sound different (more neutral) compared to the typical tube amps that are mentioned a lot on this forum. You will find a lot of threads on such similar topcis - another possibility is to go for a tube pre and SS power so as to in some sense get the best of both worlds.

Vortex - If you say the 2.5W works well on the Epos, I am sure it sounds decent, the truth behind all these pairings is that we would know what we are missing if we hear the same speaker with a similar (tonally) amp that is of much higher power.

Cranky mentioned in another post about the Shindo power and CS3 pairing - it produced some great tunes, it couldnt deliver on the low end content, does it matter? - this is where personal tastes come in.

cheers
Sridhar

p.s. Edit - Vortex, I didnt see your last two posts as I was composing this at that time.

Asit,
No fixed budget for the amps as of now. I am OK with spending the right amount that the speakers would require. I feel this could get to the 1.0L - 1.5L range.

Cranky, anm
The side walls are ruled out since the sofa wont be moved. I agree with my wife on this since the view from the sofa is amazing (looks into the garden with mango trees all dark in the photo though, taken last night at midnight).

The listening distance can be around ten feet since I can bring the speakers forward closer to the sofa. Based on the feedback in the forum, I am going for an SS amp.

Sridhar,
I would prefer the integrated since it gives me flexibility on the source.

Soundsgreat has suggested that I should keep the placement issue aside for the time being, since it is anyway going to be a bit tough. So, I will stick to my first two questions the budget (is the 1-1.5 right budget, high or low, and the brands I can look at in this budget).

 

[anm]

Is quad 909 it not in the same league as 840W? Or, will it not match md1?

 

[thevortex]

Cranky - quick question without derailing the entire topic.

Is it not right that you prefer details in your audio system? If so would a revealing speaker not be the way to go? Or were you speaking with particular reference to the Mini Dancers per se?

 

[gobble]

Just my two cents, but leave the room treatments for later and fix the room problem over time when you observe "deficiencies" in SQ as you listen over the months.


HTH
Regards

 

[cmsajith]

Just made a quick rearrangement of the furniture (attached)so that the speakers can be kept more into the center of the room which is more preferred, comments welcome.

With this, following are the pros:
- Speakers can be kept more towards the room since there wont be much movement to the balcony and the space between the speakers can be the path for movement.
- You will get the same garden view as before.
- You will get the same view from swing as the sofa before. Also you can enjoy music while swinging Also you can think about highlighting the wall behind the couch.
- Make the sofa custom built, low lying with the right side open so that it wont give a feeling of blocking the room. The sofa can be a 2 seater or 2 single seater (more preferred) which covers the sweet spot.
- You will get ample space at the back side of your sitting position.

 

[viren bakhshi]

Hi Cranky,

Just a clarification.

In a vacuum tube, the parts that generate heat are the internal heaters. These parts then radiate heat to the glass envelope. Since there's vacuum in the tube, heat transfer to the glass is only by radiation. Normal convection takes away some of the heat from the glass envelope. In using forced convection cooling of the glass envelope, you do bring the glass temperature down, but you are not affecting the internal radiant heat transfer at all.

By directing forced air at the socket, and the pins of the tube, you are helping cool the internals of the tube more effectively, by convection, and by radiation.

The fan does make some noise - it's speed, and noise, can be reduced further by changing a resistor.

Regards,
Viren

 

[thevortex]

Wow! I must really appreciate the troubles taken by people like cmsajith and audio_engr to draw up these elaborate pictures!

 

[anm]

@ cranky & op - may be the dullness is because of the pre? sid can probably confirm if he has seen a change in this area after his passive pre.

@anm: the 909 may indeed be a very god match, if I think about it. It sounded a little dull with the BE-718 but the MD's brighter presentation would probably result in a good balance between detail and warmth - worth a shot for sure.