AV receiver and integrated amp comparison

renjith lal

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Hi
I have one question regarding the performance of integrated stereo amp and good AVR for stereo performance.

For the same dedicated CD player and cd,AVR like Marantz 7005 and Denon 3312/Denon 4312 will give better sound quality for music or integrated amp like music fidelity m3i or NAD C375BEE will give better sound quality?

Or for same transport and audio source, best AVR or best stereo amp will give better sound quality?

I know that AVR has to do lot of otehr functions so expensive AVR will be equaly good for audio as integrated good amps?

Thanks in advance.

Renjith
 
Price matched integrated will sound much better than an AVR. Ofcourse a cheap integrated may not be able to beat a very good expensive AVR. But it takes much less for an integrated to do things right in music than an AVR to do the same in music playing. M3i and C375 are not only integrateds but they are more costly than the AVRs you mentioned. This is not a worthy competition...
 
A 70k AVR would be no match to a similar priced Stereo Integrated.

A stereo Integrated has one objective STEREO and nothing else.
Whereas the AVR in the same price has to power up 7/9 channels,
Stereo processions, Tuner, Surround sound processing etc etc etc etc and some more etc.

However

Synergy between speakers and AMP is extremely important in both cases

A properly match Speaker with AVR would sound much better than a badly matched Speaker + integrated

For Example a Klipsch RF-82 + Marantz 7005 would sound a lot pleasing to the ear in Stereo than a Klipsch RF-7 with a Bright Integrated
 
Hi Ashish,

I agree that M3i and NAD c375 are more expensive than the AV receiveres I mentioned.
My basic question was price matched integrated amps will perform better than AVRs?

I have a question here. In AVrs like 3312 it is mentioned discrete 125W power for each channels. So if we compare NAD C356 it is 80W per channel.
NAD C356 is 800$ and Denon 3312 is 1100$ in US. M3i is 76 watts per channel into 8 ohms and it is 1500$.

I got your point that stereo amp will perform better than AVR in simialr price range.
Now NAD C356 will be better than Denon 3312/Marants 7005 for stereo with PSB Image T6 speakers ?

Thanks
Renjith
 
My basic question was price matched integrated amps will perform better than AVRs?

All things remaining equal - price, weight, power etc yes the integrated would outpferom the AVR. In fact most integrated would outperform most AVRs that are twice their price.

AVRs have their place, Integrated have theirs. It's like comparing the photo quality of a digicam (Integrated) vs that of a mobile phone (AVR). The AVR can do things an integrated cant but in most cases there is a sacrifice in audio quality.

There are some AVRs that can perfrom equal to some integrateds. Arcam 350, 400, 500, 600, Marantz's 7005, NAD 757,777, 748, etc.., Cambridge Audio 650R, etc .. all do a decent job of audio but a stereo amp in the same price range would still outperfrom these AVRs.
 
Does an integrated Amp need a CD player necessaril or will a Blu Ray give similar performance.
 
There cannot be a definitive answer to this. Logically one would say, a similar priced dedicated stereo amp would most likely be using better components and the circuitry would be less complex and thus sound better. But that need not be true always. Economies of scale mean that similar quality components would be available to AVR makers for lesser cost as the volumes are high. So the AVR might sound equal if not better to a comparable stereo amp.

I had a NAD 320BEE, an amazing sounding budget amp in itself but I found that my Yamaha AVR that in fact cost me 2K less beat NAD in several departments!!! So there...
 
AV Receivers generally use ICs whereas Int.Amps use transistors. This makes the difference . Signal transmission will be pure and undistorted because of usage of transistors in integrates.
 
Any bluray player other than oppo and above will give bad performance for stereo irrespective of stereo amp or AVR.

That is a very bold statement (and generic too) :)
There are some players which have very good analog outputs.
 
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Most people (I also thought like this initially) think that watts per channel has a very big effect on sound quality.
An amplifier rated at 100 WPC is capable of twice the volume level of a 10 WPC amp, an amplifier rated at 100 watts per channel needs to be 1000 watts per channel to be twice as loud.the relationship between volume and wattage output is logarithmic rather than linear.

So we need to consider S/N ratio and THD than W/pc.
Also see the power rating mentioned is given for entire range from 20Hx to 20Khz.

Thanks
Renjith

All things remaining equal - price, weight, power etc yes the integrated would outpferom the AVR. In fact most integrated would outperform most AVRs that are twice their price.

AVRs have their place, Integrated have theirs. It's like comparing the photo quality of a digicam (Integrated) vs that of a mobile phone (AVR). The AVR can do things an integrated cant but in most cases there is a sacrifice in audio quality.

There are some AVRs that can perfrom equal to some integrateds. Arcam 350, 400, 500, 600, Marantz's 7005, NAD 757,777, 748, etc.., Cambridge Audio 650R, etc .. all do a decent job of audio but a stereo amp in the same price range would still outperfrom these AVRs.
 
Most people (I also thought like this initially) think that watts per channel has a very big effect on sound quality.
An amplifier rated at 100 WPC is capable of twice the volume level of a 10 WPC amp, an amplifier rated at 100 watts per channel needs to be 1000 watts per channel to be twice as loud.the relationship between volume and wattage output is logarithmic rather than linear.

So we need to consider S/N ratio and THD than W/pc.
Also see the power rating mentioned is given for entire range from 20Hx to 20Khz.

Thanks
Renjith
Ok let me add one more... Damping factor, >100 is good. >150 is very good..so goes the wisdom.
higher DF allows the amp to control movement of diaphram thereby giving tighter bass.. goes one theory.:rolleyes:
low DF gives richer (compared to leaner from above) sound, by letting loose the cone/diaphram... there is the counter argument.:lol:
go and hear one yourself... class dismissed.:D
 
if you are using hdmi connection from bdp to avr, then all should sound same, oppo or onida. But if you are using analog outs, then there can be differences.
However, unless you turn off all processing like crossovers, the adc and dac of the avr will be used and the outcome will have a strong signature of the dac's avr - not necessarily bad though.
 
Can you enlighten us with some A/V receivers using IC's?

Thanks in advance.

Latest formats such as LEDs,DSPs, DTS,DOLBY DIGITAL,DOLBY PROLOGIC,AUDESSY EQUALISERS, VIDEO UPSCALING Etc and many other multifunctions found in AV receivers should and must use ICs for compactness. In the cramped housing by having a tuner many manufacturers will not isolate the circuits from RF interference as external antenna runs well into the chasis. Shielding transformers, capacitors from processors is also not easy. Even then, the incorporation of power amplifiers inside the same chassis as the processor requires very careful layout, perhaps even extra shielding, and ideally separate power supplies. In simple words many of them are amplifiers on a chips. Here comes the factor cost Vs performance. Few lucky can afford costly equipment. My above observations are for affordable AVRs for normal Indian Income groups.
No one need any one to enlighten these basics.

Regards
 
Most people (I also thought like this initially) think that watts per channel has a very big effect on sound quality.
An amplifier rated at 100 WPC is capable of twice the volume level of a 10 WPC amp, an amplifier rated at 100 watts per channel needs to be 1000 watts per channel to be twice as loud.the relationship between volume and wattage output is logarithmic rather than linear.

So we need to consider S/N ratio and THD than W/pc.
Also see the power rating mentioned is given for entire range from 20Hx to 20Khz.

Thanks
Renjith

Valid points. To add more -
Double the loudness means increase by 3db. Meaning, 68 db will sound twice loud compared to 65 db. Double the loudness, means double the power. So, to increase the loudness by 3db from 100 watts, one would need 200 watts. Next 3 db increase would demand 400 watts.

All in all - those who go from 100 watts/channel to 200 watts/channel will gain the headroom of 3db. What matters is whether this watts/channel is dedicated per channel or only two channel driven. Almost all the AVR's rated at two channel driven. Although, in real life, very seldom all the channels are driven at the same time.

So, there is no sure way to tell whether an amp is good or bad. There are generics though - like SNR, THD, frequency range covered. Then there is all channel driven, type/size of the power supply (just to indicate that there is "real" power available when its needed) and the build components. The ultimate way to know it - listen to it yourself.
 
So we need to consider S/N ratio and THD than W/pc.

An amp with a 90db S/N ration does not nesscarily sound better than one with a 100db S/N ratio. Similarly most amps have distortion fgured less than 0.01% I dont think we can tell a difference at this level.

While you are right that for perceived loudness to double we need 10x the amplifier power I just made a very general statement when I said "All things remaining equal - price, weight, power etc". Note the "etc" at the end of that statement. Wht I meant was that a $2500 integrated amplifier like a Krell 400xi or Creek Destiny or even something as available as the Maratnz PM15S2 or Denon PMA-100 should sound better than a $2500 AVR like the Arcam AVR 400 or NAD 777.

Does the CD player need to be same brand as Amp? like Marantz CD and PM etc

Not nesscarily.

..Meaning, 68 db will sound twice loud compared to 65 db....those who go from 100 watts/channel to 200 watts/channel will gain the headroom of 3db.

So, there is no sure way to tell whether an amp is good or bad...the ultimate way to know it - listen to it yourself.

Manoj 68db does sound twice as loud as 65db - not to the human ear. 3db difference in loudness is barely perceived as a louder sound. Yes it does require twice the power but it is not perceived as twice as loud by the human ear.

Yes the best way to know which amp sounds better is by listening to it. The questioner however, I assumed, wanted a generic answer.
 
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