AVR's 2 Channel Musical performance Vs Integrated Stereo Amplifier's performance

ayushp306

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Hi everyone. Pardon me if this question has been asked before in this forum.

After learning that a 2 Channel Integrated Stereo Amplifier's? superior performance over a multi-channel AVR for obvious reasons, I wanted to know what do you prefer for your music?

Do you prefer quantity or quality? I know it's an apple vs oranges comparison but would really like to know.

Do you like listening? to your music in AVR or do you have a separate Integrated Stereo Amplifier for it? Or do you have a Stereo Home Theatre setup? [emoji4]

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Hi,

it's all individual choice, how much grand one is willing to shell out. One needn't have any gear but just listen on ipod or mp3 player too :)

Definitely Stereo amp experience for music will be better than AVR.

Hence, it depends on individual choice of music vs movie ratio and how much he want to spend.

considering that money is not a critieria, one would certainly vote for separate stereo amp for music, avr for movies ( again this cannot be generalized - there could be some AVRs that are good for both that are definitely costly to a common man )
 
Hi everyone. Pardon me if this question has been asked before in this forum.

Has been discussed earlier, but the components have evolved overtime.. A constructive discussion is always good..

After learning that a 2 Channel Integrated Stereo Amplifier's? superior performance over a multi-channel AVR for obvious reasons, I wanted to know what do you prefer for your music?

AVR - for its bass management, connectivity & flexibility..

Do you prefer quantity or quality? I know it's an apple vs oranges comparison but would really like to know.

Best would be to measure the speaker in-room response of both & then quantify over other..

Do you like listening? to your music in AVR or do you have a separate Integrated Stereo Amplifier for it? Or do you have a Stereo Home Theatre setup? [emoji4]

Have used both integrated & AVR for a while.. Prefer AVR..
 
The music from my marantz SR6009 sounds better than the music from my marantz PM6005. To my ears. In my opinion. So.... don't believe everything u read. Trust your own ears. Just because it's a stereo amp, it does not necessarily make it better in sound than a AVR. Hence I sold the stereo amp.
 
If you compare entry-level AVR with that integrated stereo amplifier then definately stereo amplifier will always sound better. But if you compare mid to high end AVR then these AVR can give a run to good dedicate stereo amp. I have audition few AVR in past which are equally good in stereo listening like Anthem MRX 520 , Denon AVR 4200 or latest Marantz SR 6011. I have audition both Marantz and Denon AVR and stereo amplifier where AVR sounds better than stereo amplifier ofcourse AVR costing was more than lakhs and stereo amps in 40 to 60 k range. AVR room and bass management is additional tool available to trim the output which is not available in stereo amp.

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If you compare entry-level AVR with that integrated stereo amplifier then definately stereo amplifier will always sound better. But if you compare mid to high end AVR then these AVR can give a run to good dedicate stereo amp. I have audition few AVR in past which are equally good in stereo listening like Anthem MRX 520 , Denon AVR 4200 or latest Marantz SR 6011. I have audition both Marantz and Denon AVR and stereo amplifier where AVR sounds better than stereo amplifier ofcourse AVR costing was more than lakhs and stereo amps in 40 to 60 k range. AVR room and bass management is additional tool available to trim the output which is not available in stereo amp.

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I have exactly opposite experience.

I auditioned RX A -850 and RX A-1050 and much cheaper RX V 770

RXV 770 wins hands down on pure direct mode.

Also AS 801 stereo amplifier sounds pristine on B&W speaker.
 
My Marantz PM-6006 sounds better than Yamaha HTR-3067.

Obviously because Yamaha AVR is an entry level model.

Although Yamaha AVR has discrete Amps for all channels and rated 70 Watts for 2 channels 20Hz-20KHz.

Yamaha HTR-3067 which is nothing but RX-V377, won the best entry level home cinema AVR Award by WhatHiFi in 2014.

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I do not like heavy bass in my music so would prefer 2 channel music instead of 2.1.

It's a matter of taste as said above earlier.

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I have no complaints on the music side of things of my AVR. I have had the Denon 720ae in my living room too. I do like the options that my AVR provides over a two channel amp. Room correction, crossover settings, pure direct, sub settings etc etc.
 
Well I haven't heard too many integrated amplifiers but I did put up a similar question here as well as AVSForums. See if it answers any of your questions satisfactorily. Here are the links:

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-audio-theory-setup-chat/2615881-first-integrated-amp.html
http://www.hifivision.com/amplifiers/64801-integrated-amp-pre-power.html

I eventually did not buy an integrated because after listening to a few like Line Magnetic, Accuphase, et al, I either found the sound similar or maybe a little better but that could be notional. Though I must admit, I love the sound quality of Accuphase. However, upon this very limited listening, I could not justify this kind of spending. At some point though, I might look at a well maintained second hand one if I take music to a different room altogether.

Now on the AVR. It really depends on what you buy. I have pretty much auditioned most of the high end Marantz and Denon as well as Anthem AVRs but the sound just did not cut it for me. Though Anthem is pretty ahead of the former two. I finally settled for Cambridge Audio CXR 200, which is absolutely marvellous for sound. The CXR does not have many bells and whistles of Denon, Marantz or Anthem but these others are not even close to CXR on sound. And now that I use UDP-205 as source through RCA, its pretty good for me. But even when I use the internal DAC of the AVR, for wireless play, the sound is more than satisfactory. So really, it depends what your focus is when you are buying an AVR and then I would imagine a fair comparison can be made whether one needs an integrated as well for a 2.1 or 2.0 set up.
 
By comparing my Denon X2200 AVR & Marantz PM6005 stereo amp ,I can say the pm6005 excels in music .
Same here Rajith ji.. [emoji4]

My Marantz PM-6006 and Wharfedale Diamond 225 bookshelves sound way way better than my Yamaha HTR-3067.

I fall in 50/50 category. My usage pattern is 50 percent for movies and 50 percent music.

I am an avid music listener. After all, we put all this effort just to hear good quality sound coming from the speakers isn't it! [emoji4]

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some of the better designed avrs smoke the two channel stereo integrated amplifiers.
it all depends on the dac and the implementation.some times i use marantz SR14EXMK2,
ONKYO TXNR1000. these are basically AVRs but the sound quality is on par with best quality stereo integrated amps. its my opinion.
 
Hi krell, have you ever compared your AVRs to a good mid to high range Integrated Stereo Amplifier side by side live?

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Hi krell, have you ever compared your AVRs to a good mid to high range Integrated Stereo Amplifier side by side live?

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i compared them with krell monoblocks running with parasound c2 pre and yamaha b2vfet running with c2 pre and sansui auD907,PIONEER SA9800 AND LIST GOES ON, i am not saying they are best , i am telling them they are not far behind....., it all depends on our individual tastes....:)
 
For most entry level and mid level setups, my simple answer would be - it is all about the quality of the power supply. In most setups, speakers are let down by weak amps, i.e. amps with weak power supplies. What is a good power supply? One that doubles its power output (or close to it) when your speaker impedance halves (typically from 8ohms to 4ohms).

Most AVRs in the entry level to mid-level category go cheap on their power supply so that they can provide you with as many features as they can. The AVR arms race is one of features (4k, HDR, Dolby Atmos, networking etc. etc.), so to hit a price point, they end up giving you weak power supplies. You can easily see this in their ratings. You will hardly find a single AVR in the entry to mid level category that gives you power ratings "with all channels driven". Many even skip ratings with 4 ohms.

Now admittedly one can argue, why do i need all channels to be driven when I am listening to stereo music - i only need 2. Fair enough. I was only pointing to a hint that this is where they generally tend to compromise. And quality of power supply is what predominantly affects the ability of amp to control the speaker with authority and hence affects quality of sound.

Again, this is an oversimplified thumb rule. If you have very easy to drive high sensitivity speakers, or if you have a strong high end AVR, things will be different. But most often, this is not the case.

One thing you can do is to do both. Use your AVR only as a preamp and take benefit of all the 4k/Dolby/networking features it gives you. But (assuming your AVR has pre-outs) feed your AVR's pre-outs to a dedicated power amp, which can be stereo or multi-channel. This gives you the best of both worlds, the feature richness of the AVR's preamp section, and the power supply strength of a power amp.

Personally, I feel that only when this aspect is properly taken care of, that one can go into more high-end differences like differences in preamp section quality (preamp section of AVR vs stereo amp), DAC quality (of inbuilt DAC of AVR vs stereo amp), etc.
 
so the connection shall be RCA out from the AVR that could be fed to stereo amp ( say for ex: aux 1) and play to see if things ok ?

Does it mean that stereo amp is better ? I couldn't understand how we can find the quality of AVR this way. Anyway thanks for this post.
 
For most entry level and mid level setups, my simple answer would be - it is all about the quality of the power supply.

Naim 5si operating power consumption 300 w

Marantz 7010 power consumption 750w

Two channels driven, with crossover to sub, Marantz power should be more than sufficient. Most of us would scoff at Marantz when compared to Naim for two channel audio.

Is there more to it than power supply too ?
 
Naim 5si operating power consumption 300 w

Marantz 7010 power consumption 750w

Two channels driven, with crossover to sub, Marantz power should be more than sufficient. Most of us would scoff at Marantz when compared to Naim for two channel audio.

Is there more to it than power supply too ?

The 750W power consumption is also for 9 channels of audio. You need to look at the power it can deliver in 2 channels.

  • Looking at the SR7010 specs:
  • There are no specs at all for "all channels driven"
  • Power output for 2 channel driven is 125W at 0.05% distortion level
  • Power output at 6ohms is 165W but the distortion levels are already climbing at 0.7%. Plus, they're measuring this only at 1KHz and have given up measuring this for 20Hz-20KHz unlike their 8ohm rating
  • They are able to squeeze out 235W of power at 6ohms, but alas, only when 1 channel is driven, i.e. mono audio. And distortion levels are now a whopping 10% which is basically garbage levels of distortion
  • They have no specs at all for 4 ohms, which strongly indicates that the power supply does not support 4 ohm loads at all, even when only 2 channels are drive. Note that even many 6 ohm nominal rated speakers (or even some 8ohm speakers) routinely dip down to 4 ohms. You can take a look at Stereophile impedance curve measurements for most speakers.

So the 750W power consumption is irrelevant when the amp clearly struggles to even supply anything exceeding 125-150W of power per channel and lowering impedances even to 6ohms is really causing it to struggle. In short, it is the power supply implementation per channel that is really important to determine.

The Naim is light on specs, but it is interesting that the amp is able to draw 300W of power from the wall, but its rated power is only 60W at 8ohms or 120W total for both channels (at 8ohms). Mind you, the 300W is reserved exclusively for 2 channels as it has no additional channels to supply power to. This indicates that if it is rated to supply 120W of power at 8ohms, and if its power supply capacity is 300W, it actually has more than enough headroom to double its power output from 120W to 240W if the speaker dips to 4ohms. So even after perfectly scaling up 2X power at 4ohms, it still has some headroom of additional 60W to support even slightly lower impedances. Some speakers like Dynaudio (or Totem like I used to own) do indeed dip down to about 3.6 - 3.8 ohms.

If anything, the specs indicate that the Naim is an amp with an exceptionally well built (or overbuilt) power supply.

Edit: I also realized that the Naim ratings of 300VA or 300W is only for transient loads and not sustained loads. So perhaps the power supply is not as exceptionally built. On further reading, it also looks like its actual official rating at 4 ohms is 90W and not perfect scaling of 120W. But this 90W is actually a downplayed number and also importantly, the distortion levels are also very low even at these peak levels. As per actual measurements, it really supplies 115W or so of reasonably clean power at 4 ohms. 110-115W per channel at 4 ohms is actually close to near perfect 2x power supply scaling - at least based on the 60W official specs (and not the 75W that it actually is able to deliver per channel at 8 ohms).

There are other parameters that are important too, of course, like channel separation. But I wanted to keep it simple, as I personally feel the power supply strength often indicates a lot of things - the amount of engineering and design and focus that went into it, and consequently the amount of attention that would have gone into other important amp parameters as well.

Even for DACs, I feel that the chip and filter and topology and all that takes a back seat to the power supply implementation quality and robustness. Again, my personal thoughts, I am no expert by any means.

Please see this article for the detailed analysis.

Excerpt:

Even with both channels driven, the NAIT 5si comfortably exceeded its specified maximum power outputs into 8 ohms (fig.5) and 4 ohms (fig.5). At our standard definition of clipping (ie, when the THD+noise reaches 1%), the Naim clipped at 76Wpc into 8 ohms (18.8dBW), a full dB above the specified 60Wpc. Into 4 ohms, the NAIT clipped at 115Wpc (17.6dBW), more than a dB higher than the specified 90Wpc.
Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content...ed-amplifier-measurements#gb8C7pE7fQqyqkxp.99
 
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