Bad soundstage in my HT for stereo

[ramukmar.raj]

When I play my Yamaha HTiB in stereo for songs, the soundstage is no way comparable to my Samson SR850 headphones.
I have placed them properly at 22 degree angels from the centre, So the front speakers are separated by around 45 degrees. (as recommended by dolby for 5.1)
Is this angle too low for proper left and right separation for songs, because I'm not able to feel good separation.

I'm new to this hobby.
So is this setup not meant for stereo listening at all?? I don't know much about IAs but how are they better for music ignoring clarity of music. I'm purely talking about soundstage and nice left and right separation. Do we place speakers at a wider angle in a stereo setup?

I tried with this video for testing:

It feels like the sound is coming from the middle mostly, buy on listening carefully I can figures out some difference on the left and right,
But they are nowhere close to what I hear on my headphones.

Edit: I'm running in straight mode only, without any modes selected. (so there is no additional processing in the AVR)

 

[edjamesx]

When I play my Yamaha HTiB in stereo for songs, the soundstage is no way comparable to my Samson SR850 headphones.
....But they are nowhere close to what I hear on my headphones.

Hearing on headphone is on very close environment , hence most of the outside noise and sounds are prevented. And headphones mostly works with stereo modes so left/right separations will be very good in headphones.
Challenge with Audio setup is - require proper calibration, room acoustics , outside noises ,room echo ..etc.

First of all check with stereo mode whether your music sounds better. AVR's other sound preset modes for music will try to simulate the sound according to the sound mode selected. Also check with "direct" mode if your AVR has option.

Setting Dolby on AVR for music , the sound will mostly come from center channel, since it tries to focus more on vocals on center channel , and send music instruments to other channels. Unfortunately the processing depends on how well AVR does the split of stereo to dolby . Since stereo music contains vocals+music it sends most frequencies to center channel /and sometimes u may surprise to hear music from other speakers when there are no vocals in song.

The best mode for hearing music is "stereo" or "direct" mode.

 

[ramukmar.raj]

Hearing on headphone is on very close environment , hence most of the outside noise and sounds are prevented. And headphones mostly works with stereo modes so left/right separations will be very good in headphones.
Challenge with Audio setup is - require proper calibration, room acoustics , outside noises ,room echo ..etc.

First of all check with stereo mode whether your music sounds better. AVR's other sound preset modes for music will try to simulate the sound according to the sound mode selected. Also check with "direct" mode if your AVR has option.

Setting Dolby on AVR for music , the sound will mostly come from center channel, since it tries to focus more on vocals on center channel , and send music instruments to other channels. Unfortunately the processing depends on how well AVR does the split of stereo to dolby . Since stereo music contains vocals+music it sends most frequencies to center channel /and sometimes u may surprise to hear music from other speakers when there are no vocals in song.

The best mode for hearing music is "stereo" or "direct" mode.

Missed to mention that I'm running in direct mode only, without any modes selected.

 

[edjamesx]

Missed to mention that I'm running in direct mode only, without any modes selected.

Ok , Then probably looks like either calibration issue or input issue. How is the Movie sounds with your HTIB?
And how you are feeding the music to AVR?. using AUX/ OPTICAL/HDMI cable?. And what's the player you are using?.

 

[ramukmar.raj]

Ok , Then probably looks like either calibration issue or input issue. How is the Movie sounds with your HTIB?
And how you are feeding the music to AVR?. using AUX/ OPTICAL cable?. And what's the player you are using?.

Movies are good I guess. (But this is my first HT setup, so I might not be an expert)
Playing on youtube from android TV, and AVR connected using HDMI ARC.

If I slightly move closer to the TV, then I feel slight improvement in soundstage, but cannot watch 55 inch tv at distance that close.
I have calibrated the AVR for distance and levels properly.

 

[abhinavsri01]

When I play my Yamaha HTiB in stereo for songs, the soundstage is no way comparable to my Samson SR850 headphones.

I was happily listening to music on my Yamaha AVR without any issues. Then one day, I picked up my old earphones & listened to my playlist. It seemed like there was something seriously wrong with the AVR. ( I was using Straight mode too.)

Now, after some auditions and advice from experts here, I'm looking forward to setting up a separate stereo system.

From my recent experience, AVR is very good for movies. But, an entry-level amplifier will sound much, much better for music.

 

[sidvee]

because I'm not able to feel good separation.



Edit: I'm running in straight mode only, without any modes selected. (so there is no additional processing in the AVR)

I have observed that if there is a big screen tv between loudspeakers, it significantly messes up the soundstage - mainly imaging wherein there is blurring of sounds within the stage and also ill definition of the stage width. If this is the situation you are facing, put a thick blanket on the tv while listening to stereo (hopefully you are not using the tv as a monitor to change tracks etc), or put a thick pillow/pillows (this works better for me, than a blanket, actually it is not a pillow, but the seat of my sofa which is large cushion stuffed with foam) and see if it helps. Aditionally putting thick pillows at the first reflection point on the sides also helps to bring more clarity to the stage.
Cheers,
Sid

 

[sidvee]

If I slightly move closer to the TV, then I feel slight improvement in soundstage, but cannot watch 55 inch tv at distance that close.
I have calibrated the AVR for distance and levels properly.

Also for stereo listening it is better to sit at at tips of an equilateral triangle drawn between your l&r speakers to your listening position. That also helps with improving of the sound stage and imaging. If you are sitting too far away from the l&r speakers the stereo stage will collapse.
Cheers,
Sid

 

[mbhangui]

I have observed that if there is a big screen tv between loudspeakers, it significantly messes up the soundstage - mainly imaging wherein there is blurring of sounds within the stage and also ill definition of the stage width. If this is the situation you are facing, put a thick blanket on the tv while listening to stereo (hopefully you are not using the tv as a monitor to change tracks etc), or put a thick pillow/pillows (this works better for me, than a blanket, actually it is not a pillow, but the seat of my sofa which is large cushion stuffed with foam) and see if it helps. Aditionally putting thick pillows at the first reflection point on the sides also helps to bring more clarity to the stage.

I had this problem. Not just the AVR, but even my separate stereo setup with another pair of speakers in the same room had a bad soundstage. I think tv with glass screen are the worst offenders (mine is a plasma 65"). The first thing I did was to put a thick quilt over the TV. But removing the quilt to watch tv and putting it back for stereo was quite a chore. Ultimately what worked for me was to pull into the room away from the tv, the Left and Right speakers of the AVR and the Left & right speaker of my stereo amp. Since I have pulled the speakers into the room, I have never looked back. I did have to adjust the AVR settings using YPAO for calibration. Calibration had to be done because the center channel is below the TV and left & right speaker are nearer to the listening position.

 

[efernand1]

When I play my Yamaha HTiB in stereo for songs, the soundstage is no way comparable to my Samson SR850 headphones.
I have placed them properly at 22 degree angels from the centre, So the front speakers are separated by around 45 degrees. (as recommended by dolby for 5.1)
Is this angle too low for proper left and right separation for songs, because I'm not able to feel good separation.

I'm new to this hobby.
So is this setup not meant for stereo listening at all?? I don't know much about IAs but how are they better for music ignoring clarity of music. I'm purely talking about soundstage and nice left and right separation. Do we place speakers at a wider angle in a stereo setup?

I tried with this video for testing:

It feels like the sound is coming from the middle mostly, buy on listening carefully I can figures out some difference on the left and right,
But they are nowhere close to what I hear on my headphones.

Edit: I'm running in straight mode only, without any modes selected. (so there is no additional processing in the AVR)

If the placement is done appropriately it should sound good unless the content you are using for playback is not of good quality.

What you hear using headphones and speakers are two different things. Headphone drivers are designed to emit most if not all frequencies (20hz to 20k) which makes it sound so great! On the other hand, depending on what speakers you are using may not emit out all the frequencies you necessarily hear using the headphones.

As far as I know Yamaha HtiB uses a single driver speaker in their satellite speakers. Its only their bookshelf speakers which are two way. If you can borrow from someone in your location a proper two way satellite and connect to the AVR, I am sure you will see a noticeable difference in sound quality.

Most of my friends in the area who have such HtiBs have changed their speakers (purchased pre owned from olx) and are enjoying the experience.

I do agree the other aspects of room treatment, soundstage, etc. etc. does kick in, but also the content, type of speakers also matter. Higher model AVRs also have different processing and hence another level of experience.

 

[quad_core]

I also have YAMAHA YHT299 and I recently upgraded the fronts to YAMAHA NS333 book shelf speakers, trust me, what an upgrade its been !
The stock speaker package of yamaha HTiB are not good in my opinion, its just OK.

 

[ramukmar.raj]

I also have YAMAHA YHT299 and I recently upgraded the fronts to YAMAHA NS333 book shelf speakers, trust me, what an upgrade its been !
The stock speaker package of yamaha HTiB are not good in my opinion, its just OK.

where did you get them and for how much? I thought its better to upgrade along with the center speaker so that is good for movies as well.

 

[Subbu68]

That's why I sold off my Onkyo HT PTS707 (that time Dolby Surround or Pro Logic whatever they called) and stuck to plain stereo since 2003 or so.

 

[efernand1]

I also have YAMAHA YHT299 and I recently upgraded the fronts to YAMAHA NS333 book shelf speakers, trust me, what an upgrade its been !
The stock speaker package of yamaha HTiB are not good in my opinion, its just OK.

Entry Level HTiB would have basic speakers, most cases a single full range driver. Once you change the speakers to a proper 2 way speaker type there definitely be a noticeable difference as now you can hear better separation of sound frequencies rather than muddy sound from a single driver which tries to emit all frequencies. Satellite speakers depending on their size would have its own limitations in terms of performance.

While most (depending on budget) would settle for the entry level systems or HTiBs, they need to (if required) upgrade their speakers after sometime (if happy with the current setup no need to do so...) to enjoy a better experience and playback.

Those on fixed or low budget should keep an eye on the classifieds section or other portals like OLX, Quikr for good deals which keep coming up. Those who can invest in new speakers, should check specs of their current setup and accordingly look for those kind of speakers which will match well.

 

[efernand1]

where did you get them and for how much? I thought its better to upgrade along with the center speaker so that is good for movies as well.

Check this link and also compare with other local dealers and see the best price with warranty

Search - yamaha

htstore.in

 

[sound1]

When I play my Yamaha HTiB in stereo for songs, the soundstage is no way comparable to my Samson SR850 headphones.
I have placed them properly at 22 degree angels from the centre, So the front speakers are separated by around 45 degrees. (as recommended by dolby for 5.1)
Is this angle too low for proper left and right separation for songs, because I'm not able to feel good separation.

I'm new to this hobby.
So is this setup not meant for stereo listening at all?? I don't know much about IAs but how are they better for music ignoring clarity of music. I'm purely talking about soundstage and nice left and right separation. Do we place speakers at a wider angle in a stereo setup?

I tried with this video for testing:

It feels like the sound is coming from the middle mostly, buy on listening carefully I can figures out some difference on the left and right,
But they are nowhere close to what I hear on my headphones.

Edit: I'm running in straight mode only, without any modes selected. (so there is no additional processing in the AVR)

let me ask you this: why didn't you just dump the HTIB and listen to headphones full time? i asked this myself and here are some thoughts.

1) with headphones, music is inside/around your head whereas with speakers you are within a musical performance; infront of a much bigger soundstage with impactful presentation. headphones give great stereo separation whereas speakers give you great soundstage. looks like you mixed up those 2 terms.

2) to chieve the clarity, detail, imaging, power handling, frequncy response & all the goodness of a decent pair of headphones with a stereo system, you need a lot of things to go right such as: excellent speakers, low ambient noise levels & good room acoustics, very capable amps, not to mention decent DACS & cables, etc.

3) audio is governed by logarithmic curves, for example: power vs perceived volume curve, frequency response curve, price vs performance curve (also known as 'law of diminishing returns', 'exponentially expensive curve' etc. )

4) to scale up the headphone performance to room levels while keeping all the goodies of stereo system, there is no escaping point 2 and 3. and therein lies your problem & potential solution.

welcome to the audiophile world my friend.

 

[HIEND-Raja]

I had this problem. Not just the AVR, but even my separate stereo setup with another pair of speakers in the same room had a bad soundstage. I think tv with glass screen are the worst offenders (mine is a plasma 65"). The first thing I did was to put a thick quilt over the TV. But removing the quilt to watch tv and putting it back for stereo was quite a chore. Ultimately what worked for me was to pull into the room away from the tv, the Left and Right speakers of the AVR and the Left & right speaker of my stereo amp. Since I have pulled the speakers into the room, I have never looked back. I did have to adjust the AVR settings using YPAO for calibration. Calibration had to be done because the center channel is below the TV and left & right speaker are nearer to the listening position.

In my audio room I have 3 pair speakers next to next, don't have any problem listening stereo and watching movies. I agreed don't have glass in your listening room, any glass window & TV even cupboard with smooth surface doors, those will reflect sound very worst. Sometimes I will using my Denon AVR drive my Jamo D590 in stereo mode CD & turntable I feel sound is very good.

 

[spirovious]

As others have pointed out that speakers could be the main reason. Htib come with small speakers which cannot give large soundstage. Speakers with larger drivers will give you better sound. Secondly its avr which is driving speakers So there will be some limitation when compared with stereo amp.

 

[ramukmar.raj]

As others have pointed out that speakers could be the main reason. Htib come with small speakers which cannot give large soundstage. Speakers with larger drivers will give you better sound. Secondly its avr which is driving speakers So there will be some limitation when compared with stereo amp.

So what's the fundamental difference between stereo amp and avr when playing same stereo music

 

[DB1989]

So what's the fundamental difference between stereo amp and avr when playing same stereo music

Not an infallible rule but usually, better quality components.

The AVR packs in hundreds of inputs and outputs including power output for 5+ channels, room correction hardware, software for the aforementioned feature plus in general for controlling the AVR, licensing fee for the various proprietary tech used such as Dolby Atmos, DTS etc.

Compare this to a stereo amplifier which is meant for two channels, seldom ever packs in software, seldom ever uses room correction, no proprietary formats to license (except MQA for certain amps) and it becomes really easy to understand why their two channel performance is better than a price comparable AVR.