cable upgrade

[entsurgeon]

hi gurujano...
my system is philips tt with lots of vinyl.
denon avr 3803 in pure direct stereo mode driving wharfedale 8.4s towed in abt 20degrees. m using dac cables and possess unnamed but sourced from mumbai 14 G cables.
was recently advised by a fellow with high research and lower long term experience that getting really good cables ala qed quinex or chord choral would enhance the sound specially at sub frequencies manyfold. he emphasised that for a mid end system(high end for indian enthuisiasts... ) the dac is shit. worth a throwaway.
i am willing to try choral or quinex also maybe kimber .
whats ur take???

 

[murali]

hi gurujano...
my system is philips tt with lots of vinyl.
denon avr 3803 in pure direct stereo mode driving wharfedale 8.4s towed in abt 20degrees. m using dac cables and possess unnamed but sourced from mumbai 14 G cables.
was recently advised by a fellow with high research and lower long term experience that getting really good cables ala qed quinex or chord choral would enhance the sound specially at sub frequencies manyfold. he emphasised that for a mid end system(high end for indian enthuisiasts... ) the dac is shit. worth a throwaway.
i am willing to try choral or quinex also maybe kimber .
whats ur take???

You won't go wrong with Kimber. Even their low priced ones should be better than those Chinese manufactured (DAC, Qed etc).

Good luck.
murali

 

[venkatcr]

It is very easy for someone to just wish away a product saying it is bad or whatever word you want to use. I can, as easily, say Kimbre is terrible and not worth the price. In a simple A-B I did in my house recently, both Capt. Rajesh and I came to the conclusion that a interconnect made by Viren sounded the best and most revealing when compared to ICs that were worth more than a lakh. Similarly, I have always been comparing Belden speakers cables with cables from Kimbre, Chord, Nordost. I did not find any of the cables beating the Belden by an appreciable margin. The additional cost just did not justify the difference in sound quality. In many cases, a larger soundstage was clearly audible with the Belden. And, I am taking about using amplifiers such as Primare, Creek, etc, and speakers such as Dynaudio, Audire IO2s. etc.

I would strongly suggest you audition a few speakers cables for yourself and 'hear' the difference before you make any commitments. Unless you can hear the difference, you will only be throwing away money.

Cheers

 

[ajay124]

@entsurgeon
'fellow with high research and lower long term experience'Nice!
Incidentally the Chord is the Chord Carnival Silverscreen.I opted for this after using a DAC for 4 years.Same system.Same room.Same placement.The Chord's added a whole new layer to the sound.Refined,detailed,musical.The difference in sound was immediately audible to me,my wife and a friend who happened to be present.I was so entranced that the cd's kept spinning the whole day long.I am not saying that the Silverscreen is earthshattering,its an entry level Chord.But at 500/600 per meter a 2x2 meter for 2000+ is definitely worth the price.
Have not heard the Kimber 4 TC but believe it would be far superior to the Silverscreen.
Recently spent a chunk on used Transparent Audio Musiclink cables and interconnects.Worth every penny I paid for them and more.
Finally have a SQ I can happily live with for quite sometime.

 

[malvai]

I beg to differ with Venkat's post.

I have used the following speaker cables with my Krell power amp and Thiel CS 2.4 speakers:

Chord Silverscreen Silver Anniversary: 3 mtr pair for Rs 4,800. It sounded like a very good cable until I bought the one below....

XLO ULTRA 6: 2.5 mtr pair for about Rs 10,000. It BLEW away the Chord. The hi's became airy, the mids became smooth, the dynamics got some testosterone, the low end slam improved by a 1000%. But, but, I found that the cable made the system sound extra lively, as my Thiels are a bit forward. So, I tried the one below:

Cardas Hexlink Golden 5-C. This is a 2 mtr pair and costs anything between 15,000 to 25,000 (used) on audiogon. This used to be Cardas's top-o-the-line cable until a few years back. To some of us, it is still a very good cable. Now this cable took away some of the hf airiness, just a tad, mind you. But gave the soundstage more body. The low end slam and dynamics were retained. Overall, the sound became very very refined.

To put it plainly, speaker cables and interconnects (which is another story by the way, which we will keep for later!) make all the difference when you want to tweak your system.

When your system reaches a certain level, and you listen critically, you'll hear all this. I used to scoff these things as well, but in the last 6 months, my ears have been 'opened'!

So, please buy your cables with utmost care. They will help you optimise your sound!

 

[murali]

It is very easy for someone to just wish away a product saying it is bad or whatever word you want to use. I can, as easily, say Kimbre is terrible and not worth the price. In a simple A-B I did in my house recently, both Capt. Rajesh and I came to the conclusion that a interconnect made by Viren sounded the best and most revealing when compared to ICs that were worth more than a lakh. Similarly, I have always been comparing Belden speakers cables with cables from Kimbre, Chord, Nordost. I did not find any of the cables beating the Belden by an appreciable margin. The additional cost just did not justify the difference in sound quality. In many cases, a larger soundstage was clearly audible with the Belden. And, I am taking about using amplifiers such as Primare, Creek, etc, and speakers such as Dynaudio, Audire IO2s. etc.

I would strongly suggest you audition a few speakers for yourself and 'hear' the difference before you make any commitments. Unless you can hear the difference, you will only be throwing away money.

Cheers

Ignorance is bliss, not always, but sometimes.

cheers.
murali

 

[shaizada]

Yes, cables will make a difference. However, at what point and at what price. It is best to "tweak" the sound once you have a system you want to live with for a somewhat long term. Before a certain quality of system is achieved, it might be best to concentrate funds on actual components that would give you larger gains.

I finally started auditioning and using quality cables once I was happy with the basic sound quality and sound signature of my audio components. Cables are almost like tone controls. Proceed wisely and enjoy the journey AND learning experience.

Cable rolling, tube rolling, vibration control all make major differences as and when your system becomes highly resolving. As system resolution increases, so does the effectiveness of these tweaks.

 

[dinyaar]

Hi Dr :- Cables are system specific so no one size fits all. What sounds good,better, best in my set up may rank in a very different order in someone else s.

I have or have had at some time all the cables spoken above.
The kimbers are good/safe choices. The XLO is also good but will work in fewer set ups and in the rest it will sound forward & edgy. The cardas is a warm, smooth sound so will not work in laid back set ups.
U cannot put the Chord silver screen or the QEDs in the same bracket as the above mentioned cables. Forget the WHAT HIFI best seller (or whatever really!!!) award and hear these cables together and take a call.

Ajay u bought the IC As well as the speaker cables? Purely my opinion but I feel the IC is great while the speaker cable is average and sounds a bit too lively in most set ups. Going all transparent can be a very dynamic, open sound but provided u can live with the tone. The BP 6/3BSST is anyway a bit forward in all but the most damped rooms.

Cables will naturally make a difference to the overall sound of your HIFI guys. I wonder why this keeps coming up every other time a cable question pops up!!!!!
Rgds

 

[sidvee]

My experience with kimber - specifically 8tc and hero ic's has been very positive - good sound and great value. I however prefer the nordost blue heavens - speaker cables and ic's in my system. Also have the signal cable silver resolution and anti cables. I also use audio art cables in my second system and find them to be a great vfm cable and IMO their ic3se is easily comparable to the kimber hero ic.
Cheers
Sid

 

[entsurgeon]

I have or have had at some time all the cables spoken above.


Cables will naturally make a difference to the overall sound of your HIFI guys. I wonder why this keeps coming up every other time a cable question pops up!!!!!
Rgds

HEY BUD,
this comes up repeatedly coz every time some indian soul decides to go hifi, 99% newbies r driven to avrs by mktg gimmicks n they r provided generic cables. and still the users enjoy the system... feeling superfluous. just like the era 15 yrs back when every rich indian who went hifi purchased those micro-mini component systems and felt same in front of 2in1 users.
when someone gets seasoned(and that isnt a rule, just few lucky ones reach this level) the first thing he d try is to invariably ask if the cable upgrade is worth it. a big factor is that mostly, ppl dont spend the recommended 10-15% of system cost on cables during first purchase and hence thats the first hole they think of plugging.
i have no shame in admitting that i was a newbie once, i m glad i began the journey from the inception(pun intend).
so now lets be specific...
kimber 4 tc(m told of a used pair for nearly half the price) or chord choral silverscreen??? on denon and tt/cassette player system what parameters should be expected to improve?? also i might lay my hands on project xpression tt and vinyls are my staple so plz comment on this too.
also i use mostercable ic for analogue transfer from dvd player and dac coaxial for spdif. now i d have a cassette player.. is it advisable for me to change ic?? i might have to purchace another pair anyway.
thx in advance plz.

 

[captrajesh]

I can, as easily, say Kimbre is terrible and not worth the price. In a simple A-B I did in my house recently, both Capt. Rajesh and I came to the conclusion that a interconnect made by Viren sounded the best and most revealing when compared to ICs that were worth more than a lakh.

We were listening to Primare driving Audere IO2s. The same song sequence was repeated to check the differences which were quite palpable. Viren's ICs had better resolution and were definitely better sounding.

I was very surprised but this is a fact that I vouch for, personally speaking.

 

[malvai]

HEY BUD,

kimber 4 tc(m told of a used pair for nearly half the price) or chord choral silverscreen??? on denon and tt/cassette player system what parameters should be expected to improve?? also i might lay my hands on project xpression tt and vinyls are my staple so plz comment on this too.
also i use mostercable ic for analogue transfer from dvd player and dac coaxial for spdif. now i d have a cassette player.. is it advisable for me to change ic?? i might have to purchace another pair anyway.
thx in advance plz.

my thoughts on this:
1. Go for the Kimber, it will allow for a far more refined sound. Denon's are a bit forward in sound usually, so the Kimber will help. Plus Kimber is in a way diff league than the Chord.
2. the 2xpression TT is a very good. The Ortofon that comes with it has lush mid's and has a very good overall tonal balance. This will be showcased nicely by the Kimber.
3. The monster IC's are fine for now. No point in spending 5-10k on an IC for your current set up. If you're getting some Kinber IC's for a good price then maybe you could go for them too and be done with for a long long time, even if you were to upgrade to a 5 times pricier HIFI.
(Dinyaar could help you with Kimber.)

 

[stevieboy]

We were listening to Primare driving Audere IO2s. The same song sequence was repeated to check the differences which were quite palpable. Viren's ICs had better resolution and were definitely better sounding.

I was very surprised but this is a fact that I vouch for, personally speaking.

quite true. i found the same better sound when i compared viren's interconnects to a straightwire and an audioquest king cobra (the red coloured one, in case i've got the name wrong). blind testing with a female pair of ears who plays the piano seconded that. then again perhaps its synergy with his components as a whole.

regards

 

[malvai]

I gotta try Viren's IC's bro... I am sure they'd be better than the AQ King Cobra for sure.... Those are amongst the worst IC's in my book.... Though the AQ/AT Diamond's or the newer SKY is another matter!

 

[longshanks]

I however prefer the nordost blue heavens - speaker cables and ic's in my system.

Me too!! may be it is my ears or may be it fits my setup really well, Nordost cables have been the best ive ever had and i stopped changing my speaker cables after getting them.

 

[malvai]

The nordost's are very very good cables and IC's! But, they can sound cold on certain systems... I used to like the Nordost XLR with my Rotel... a LOT!

 

[dinyaar]

HEY BUD,
this comes up repeatedly coz every time some indian soul decides to go hifi, 99% newbies r driven to avrs by mktg gimmicks n they r provided generic cables. and still the users enjoy the system... feeling superfluous. just like the era 15 yrs back when every rich indian who went hifi purchased those micro-mini component systems and felt same in front of 2in1 users.
when someone gets seasoned(and that isnt a rule, just few lucky ones reach this level) the first thing he d try is to invariably ask if the cable upgrade is worth it. a big factor is that mostly, ppl dont spend the recommended 10-15% of system cost on cables during first purchase and hence thats the first hole they think of plugging.
i have no shame in admitting that i was a newbie once, i m glad i began the journey from the inception(pun intend).
so now lets be specific...
kimber 4 tc(m told of a used pair for nearly half the price) or chord choral silverscreen??? on denon and tt/cassette player system what parameters should be expected to improve?? also i might lay my hands on project xpression tt and vinyls are my staple so plz comment on this too.
also i use mostercable ic for analogue transfer from dvd player and dac coaxial for spdif. now i d have a cassette player.. is it advisable for me to change ic?? i might have to purchace another pair anyway.
thx in advance plz.

Hi Dr,
My comment was not aimed at u or any newbee at all.

There are some cable manufacturers that are good, they push the envelope and try new things, they use quality copper and the entire process is done in house.
There are also some that buy from bulk mfgrs and add a few inconsequential things, repack beautifully and sell at much higher margins.

Lastly there are Cos like Belden that are the bulk mfgrs and sell to various boutique brands & TO THE RETAIL BUYER.

U should go as far as ur wallet allows u and also u have to keep in mind the quality of the gear u have. Its no point spending big money on cables when one is using basic electronics as those basic electronics are not good enough to reveal what each cable brings.
U may look at it in another wat too := Buy good cables now so as to be able to use them as u go higher. At least that way the money spent at the moment on mediocre cable is not fully wasted.
I dont go or advise u to follow any thumb rule on an allocated percentage regarding cable outlay. BUY WHAT SOUNDS GOOD TO U. U must hear a few cables in the set up before deciding as different cables will act like tone controls in a small way.
Buy that 4 Tc if its at a fair price. See a 4TC is sold per foot so about Rs 350 per foot is fair price as against new price in bbay of Rs 750 plus taxes. If u like try a Kimber timber as thats a basic IC but more than enough for your needs.
Also look at VDH as that may suit an AVR more as its a bit smooth where as the Kimber is more direct, neutral. VDH is only strong in the ICS and look for used D102 MK 3. That is one of the best ICS under 5K (used). Current price of new is a ridiculous 15K!!!!!!!!!!!!
There are other brands that I would like to suggest like Cardas, transparent etc etc but frankly they are too expensive and u dont really need them at the moment.
As regards KIMBER V/S CHORD as far as speaker cables. Well thats a tough call. Both have some decent cables but the mid level TC line will easily beat the Chord silver screen. The higher end chords are fair but the dearer Kimber select are at a different level of performance.

Dr we all start off as newbies. The smart ones pick up fast
Haha good luck in your upgrades
Rgds
Dinyaar

 

[entsurgeon]

okay, where n for how much wud virens ic be claimed for??
@malvai- project tt has its own ic termination so it d go directly into the phono sockets in my system. i may use the ic for onkyo tape that ajay has sold me.
whats the correct way to ground the denons phono input grnd terminal plz?? i currently connect the wire to a nearby metal rack in which i keep lps.
as such my house has proper grounding that cost me 5-6k upwards and as such never faced any issue in past 5 yrs i ve been here.

 

[malvai]

bro the ground wire that comes out of the TT needs to be put into the grnd terminal on the Denon! That's all!

 

[entsurgeon]

dinyaar, mere yaar..(cudn t resist blah blah blah, but how many times has this come up on forum???? )
anyway, i didn t at all feel bad for that line, how cud i be when at this forum, nation s most experienced souls come up in droves for my queries within 24 hrs. all of u ppl get 1 thanks each from my side in this thread....
its just that it was 6 am after a long stint with my system and i was feeling a bit preachy
i guess it has to be kimber for me right now. if there are any offers for other things used plz let me b enlightened. also dinyaar, help me on vdh d 102mk3. u ppl are my only contact in this hf world. i live in hinterland with no one dealing in these stuffs.
by the way, i intend to tweak my system for a medium budget in coming years and once i m good with the system, i ll pay attention to the content only. this continuous analysis and changes are taking toll on actual pleasure of music listening.