Curiosity killed no one!

[aeroash]

What might be the reason we are not moving away from the "regular" brands? When recommendations for HiFi gear are solicited all I see are the usual suspects. Marantz, KEF, Dali, Wharfedale, NAD, Klipsch, Audiolab, QA etc. No doubt these brands are more than decent in their own right. Aren't there any "gems" from the "not-so-popular" brands to be found?

We buy the mainstream names because of:

1. Easy Availability
2. Herd mentality
3. Reliable brand support (repairs, warranties etc)
4. Not enough exposure for other brands.
5. Brand conscious, peer pressure.
6. "Safe" buy (tried and trusted)
7. Combination of the above

Any other reasons?

I'm also eager and curious to listen to your tales about any "obscure" brands or great pieces of equipment you may have found.

 

[argho]

I guess because for most of us, our HiFi equipment is a significant investment, we tend to play safe by buying items which have been comprehesively reviewed, and have service support - aka the well known brands.

Its been years since I have been able to go for a demo, hence dependency on reviews to choose what to buy.

Also, I guess past experience. For example I have had really good ownership experience with Denon AVRs, hence have stuck to it with every upgrade.

 

[reignofchaos]

Price and availability - primarily price

If non mainstream brands had reliable distribution at reasonable prices, people would buy them in the droves.

 

[Bloom@83]

I moved away from my trusted Marantz 8xxx integrated amplifier to a handbuilt Dynaco Pas3X tube preamp and Discrete Dynamics power amp, without any audition. Of course I had the assurance of 2-3 of the most trusted and knowledgeable folks on the subject , plus one or two reviews here on the forum , but it was still a big leap of faith, as it was my first off brand venture. Needless to say , the gamble more than enough paid off.

 

[Sugar]

I moved away from my trusted Marantz 8xxx integrated amplifier to a handbuilt Dynaco Pas3X tube preamp and Discrete Dynamics power amp, without any audition. Of course I had the assurance of 2-3 of the most trusted and knowledgeable folks on the subject , plus one or two reviews here on the forum , but it was still a big leap of faith, as it was my first off brand venture. Needless to say , the gamble more than enough paid off.

I too am slowly moving away from the standard brands. I am beginning to audition some home grown Indian brands as I shop for an amp for my second system.
My earlier gamble with buying a Mytek product when it was not mainstream also paid off. I am very pleased with it.
But I guess there is always a price - comfort - standard performance ratio (perceived or real) that plays in our minds which leads us to the standard brands. The fun is in breaking out and experimenting - like trying new world wines!

 

[reubensm]

For me, i have tried several brands for components and speakers, although I have always fallen back on Garrard, Shure and SME for nostalgic reasons, when it comes to turntables, I have found Technics DDs to be the best in terms of sound, value for money and reliabilty so I have stuck with only this brand for mainstream use. For tape, again tried many mainstreams ones but found Nakamichi to be the best by quite some distance. For amplification, tried many but found NAD to be to my liking. I also found the history and design logic associated with them, fascinating. Since the early 2000s, I have stopped using other brands. However now that the personal treasury is not much of a problem, I am looking ahead too, possibly for a good retirement investment, maybe something like this

 

[arj]

What might be the reason we are not moving away from the "regular" brands? When recommendations for HiFi gear are solicited all I see are the usual suspects. Marantz, KEF, Dali, Wharfedale, NAD, Klipsch, Audiolab, QA etc. No doubt these brands are more than decent in their own right. Aren't there any "gems" from the "not-so-popular" brands to be found?

We buy the mainstream names because of:

1. Easy Availability
2. Herd mentality
3. Reliable brand support (repairs, warranties etc)
4. Not enough exposure for other brands.
5. Brand conscious, peer pressure.
6. "Safe" buy (tried and trusted)
7. Combination of the above

Any other reasons?

I'm also eager and curious to listen to your tales about any "obscure" brands or great pieces of equipment you may have found.

Its a nice question and I was thinking of this into some kind of phases we all go through in terms of our journey as an audiophile . we are all in different stages and also spend different time durations in each. we may also have overlaps between. DIY folks may have a different approach depending on where they branch off though.

I will assume price to be an important factor no matter what stage you are in. Again these are stages and one can remain and be very very happy in each stage including the 1st and choose not to move further

1. We all start off as someone who loves music and hence want to listen to it better. here Price is crucial and some combination of brand/safe buy ie who all have bought it before helps but usually still in internet searches and trying to learn ( or not) as to how to listen. this is when we might move to a separate component based system. even perhaps as Movies+Music but music being the focus.

2. now we have spent some time listening and started appreciating difference in components, primarily Speaker/Amp/Source and start reading up and analysing , we may waste little to lots of money on upgrades both lateral and higher. start realising price vs quality ie how they might or might not correlate etc. At this time resolution , presentation , soundstage, dynamics etc start becoming important things. some of us might take measurements as our route and others trusting ones own or others ear eg friends/reviews etc. Here again brand/peer pressure/price play a role

3. While equipment is still important we now start understanding nuances in tonality and now start getting on to other elements like Cables/Power/vibration etc as also being important and we start experimenting. here we are clearer of the sound we want and what we really like but are still unsure of what is doing what and discussions are around whats really neutral eg am squeezing the best out of the source ?. here we go more by trust in ones own ear /measurements as well as in others we trust and know . you do serious experiments with tweaks of all types.

4. one step higher where we now realize the importance of each element and start looking at acoustics, how the system couples together, nuances. trust in owns own ears /others ears or measurements is a lot more. We know the tweaks to tune your sound and Brands are looked at mostly in terms of engineering /servicing etc. . At this stage one very circumspect about what to buy and may even go for nondescript brands as long as we are satisfied with what it can do and its quality. We are also able to see through jargon and also evaluate equipment to its true potential than whats available in the public domain.

5. is closer to nirvana where sound quality is all that matters and brands may not mean much to oneself and go around with the best well engineered product branded or DIY and can shape our system to a clear defined taste.

I started this as a 3-4 liner but got me thinking and realised I have really rambled a lot ..do not have the heart ot delete it as well.

 

[Analogous]

Its a nice question and I was thinking of this into some kind of phases we all go through in terms of our journey as an audiophile . we are all in different stages and also spend different time durations in each. we may also have overlaps between. DIY folks may have a different approach depending on where they branch off though.

I will assume price to be an important factor no matter what stage you are in. Again these are stages and one can remain and be very very happy in each stage including the 1st and choose not to move further

1. We all start off as someone who loves music and hence want to listen to it better. here Price is crucial and some combination of brand/safe buy ie who all have bought it before helps but usually still in internet searches and trying to learn ( or not) as to how to listen. this is when we might move to a separate component based system. even perhaps as Movies+Music but music being the focus.

2. now we have spent some time listening and started appreciating difference in components, primarily Speaker/Amp/Source and start reading up and analysing , we may waste little to lots of money on upgrades both lateral and higher. start realising price vs quality ie how they might or might not correlate etc. At this time resolution , presentation , soundstage, dynamics etc start becoming important things. some of us might take measurements as our route and others trusting ones own or others ear eg friends/reviews etc. Here again brand/peer pressure/price play a role

3. While equipment is still important we now start understanding nuances in tonality and now start getting on to other elements like Cables/Power/vibration etc as also being important and we start experimenting. here we are clearer of the sound we want and what we really like but are still unsure of what is doing what and discussions are around whats really neutral eg am squeezing the best out of the source ?. here we go more by trust in ones own ear /measurements as well as in others we trust and know . you do serious experiments with tweaks of all types.

4. one step higher where we now realize the importance of each element and start looking at acoustics, how the system couples together, nuances. trust in owns own ears /others ears or measurements is a lot more. We know the tweaks to tune your sound and Brands are looked at mostly in terms of engineering /servicing etc. . At this stage one very circumspect about what to buy and may even go for nondescript brands as long as we are satisfied with what it can do and its quality. We are also able to see through jargon and also evaluate equipment to its true potential than whats available in the public domain.

5. is closer to nirvana where sound quality is all that matters and brands may not mean much to oneself and go around with the best well engineered product branded or DIY and can shape our system to a clear defined taste.

I started this as a 3-4 liner but got me thinking and realised I have really rambled a lot ..do not have the heart ot delete it as well.

Very nicely explained @arj. It resonates quite a bit with my journey too.

 

[rwnano]

What might be the reason we are not moving away from the "regular" brands? When recommendations for HiFi gear are solicited all I see are the usual suspects. Marantz, KEF, Dali, Wharfedale, NAD, Klipsch, Audiolab, QA etc. No doubt these brands are more than decent in their own right. Aren't there any "gems" from the "not-so-popular" brands to be found?

We buy the mainstream names because of:

1. Easy Availability
2. Herd mentality
3. Reliable brand support (repairs, warranties etc)
4. Not enough exposure for other brands.
5. Brand conscious, peer pressure.
6. "Safe" buy (tried and trusted)
7. Combination of the above

Any other reasons?

I'm also eager and curious to listen to your tales about any "obscure" brands or great pieces of equipment you may have found.

SB Acoustics, and other DIY kits... [Yes yet again I mention them]

 

[Sugar]

For me, i have tried several brands for components and speakers, although I have always fallen back on Garrard, Shure and SME for nostalgic reasons, when it comes to turntables, I have found Technics DDs to be the best in terms of sound, value for money and reliabilty so I have stuck with only this brand for mainstream use. For tape, again tried many mainstreams ones but found Nakamichi to be the best by quite some distance. For amplification, tried many but found NAD to be to my liking. I also found the history and design logic associated with them, fascinating. Since the early 2000s, I have stopped using other brands. However now that the personal treasury is not much of a problem, I am looking ahead too, possibly for a good retirement investment, maybe something like this

Have heard nice things about this set up - would love to hear your thoughts once you get your hands on it.

 

[vkalia]

Well, if you start with the assumption that we are all looking for the best performance for a given budget, the question becomes - who is more likely to offer that: a mainstream brand or a niche brand?

For something like, say, amplifiers, where the technology/topologies are fairly stable and its all a matter of which attributes a designer chooses to focus on (THD+N, current capabilities, damping factor, low GFB, etc), i would argue that a mainstream brand is likely to have better value for the $, given their economies of scale.

A bigger company also is more likely to have the R&D muscle for improved product design in evolving technologies (eg, transducers) - although here, a niche company may be able to compete better if it has made a unique breakthrough or come up with some manufacturing/design technique that the big guys cannot compete with for whatever reason.

 

[aeroash]

I guess because for most of us, our HiFi equipment is a significant investment,

Doesn’t have to be, though. Good audio can be had for cheap, that’s my point. It’s our awareness or apprehension towards lesser-known or cheaper products that keep us away.

we tend to play safe by buying items which have been comprehesively reviewed,

True. Reviews could be tricky though, or bought, perhaps. My personal learning has been that what works for one doesn’t work for another. Room, placement, and synergy between components are bigger factors.
Remember the Denafrips thread a while ago?

Also, I guess past experience. For example I have had really good ownership experience with Denon AVRs, hence have stuck to it with every upgrade.

Yes, this helps from a comfort-level aspect.

 

[arj]

---

A bigger company also is more likely to have the R&D muscle for improved product design in evolving technologies (eg, transducers) - although here, a niche company may be able to compete better if it has made a unique breakthrough or come up with some manufacturing/design technique that the big guys cannot compete with for whatever reason.

This is perhaps the Key statement. the cost of a product is not just the some of parts and the branding is not a simple markup as it also contains some of the R&D that has been investing over the years to get it. it could be as simple as the material used for isolation or how the power supply has been placed in the Chassis.

 

[Analogous]

Another aspect comes to mind:
Many/most big brand name Audio companies have a range of products from budget to very expensive products with lots of attention to quality and design. They also are capable of releasing new models with new features more frequently than boutique brands.
Many Boutique brands on the other hand pride themselves on hand crafted equipment with carefully selected components. Their upgrades are infrequent and often not apparent visually. They rarely bother with advertising and marketing, relying more on word of mouth information spread among those who like them. They can probably be described as excellent DIYers who have been able to scale up production to a modest degree.
I think there is plenty of space for both to coexist. As @arj has described it took some time and experimenting with big brand names for me personally to arrive at the hidden world of boutique audio.
So much to discover!!!

 

[Decadent_Spectre]

I think most people don't go for obscure brands simply because they haven't heard of it. If they read it on forums they may not pay attention to them. If they look it up they may feel it is too expensive as niche brands often are, for the majority of those in this hobby anyway. If they feel they can afford it they may feel that it is not a good product. If they feel it is a good product they may see that it is not available locally. So there are many reasons for this, the primary being they don't even know about it. Personally I like finding obscure brands with interesting designs but only on the pro audio side of things, not because I want to buy but out of simple curiosity. I think most people in this hobby are not as invested in it as some are. They are laymen who want some speakers, they read something somewhere and decide to google. They don't have the time or inclination to pursue it for more than a few days, they size up availability vs price, make a purchase and are gone from the "scene". In short only those with knowledge,time,patience,money and passion woud truly explore niche brands.

 

[Yogesh]

I went for Indiq BS & Discrete Dynamics for my Stereo Setup. Can't say I have anything to complaint. Also planning to get the handbuilt Dynaco Pas3X tube preamp.

 

[aeroash]

This is perhaps the Key statement. the cost of a product is not just the some of parts and the branding is not a simple markup as it also contains some of the R&D that has been investing over the years to get it. it could be as simple as the material used for isolation or how the power supply has been placed in the Chassis.

@arj I have limited knowledge of the technicalities of an amplifier. My belief was that "transparent" amplifier designs were simple enough for any enthusiast or manufacturer to pursue and build a solid device with good quality components at a reasonable price.

FMCG manufacturers have to keep inventing and reinventing every year, mostly with absurd terminologies just to keep their relevance with the pursuit of bringing something "new and improved".

Here's my question. Aren't tried and tested traditional designs "good enough"? let's talk about Class A and AB power amplifiers. Class D "appears" to be still evolving. Also, let's leave the manufacturer's business model out of this. This question is purely from a "quality audio" perspective.

 

[arj]

@arj I have limited knowledge of the technicalities of an amplifier. My belief was that "transparent" amplifier designs were simple enough for any enthusiast or manufacturer to pursue and build a solid device with good quality components at a reasonable price.

FMCG manufacturers have to keep inventing and reinventing every year, mostly with absurd terminologies just to keep their relevance with the pursuit of bringing something "new and improved".

Here's my question. Aren't tried and tested traditional designs "good enough"? let's talk about Class A and AB power amplifiers. Class D "appears" to be still evolving. Also, let's leave the manufacturer's business model out of this. This question is purely from a "quality audio" perspective.

Among the "popular" brands, the big ones do try to differentiate ( as in any FMCG category) in the end its economics for big and small players. amplifier designs have not really changed much. but unlike other FMCGs the market is very small and even within that fragmented .

In Class A and A/B As in speakers there are several topologies available in amps , chose the best and build. if you can build it yourselves you may get the biggest bang for the buck. but each do sound different and behave differently with each speaker.

BTW I have been hearing of Class Ds since early 2000s and even owned one of the earlier Tripath T amps. today very few people have it as their serious amp but any AV device with a speaker uses that and thats where the volume and market is. maybe thats why even after 20 years its still evolving,

Even today the simplest designs done well are very good.I belive the the cost vs price of Any electronic device is 5x the additional cost going into logistics/marketing/payroll etc as well as the R&D. so the larger you are the more the economies of scale in manufacturing but the other costs also go up. which a smaller player might not have at the expense of a smaller market size usually more local.

Some more differences between a DIY /small scale and large manufacturers could be

1. Consistency at scale: are you sure that any piece you pick up will sound the same and to the same specs. hence if you are building for yourselves or a couple of friends it is great..but not easy scaling it up to a brand with a distribution network and repair facilities.
2. Viability of the manufacturer. Will that company and brand survive say 5-10 years and also have the spare parts available eg Mother boards/chips do get obsolete. Thats the reason Tube amps with point to point wirings last the ravages of time.. I guess the same is true for many SS designs ie they can be repaired anytime. also if you have spent a lot, will you be able to sell it alter if/when you upgrade?
3.May not be so relevant in india but the servicing etc etc. those who do find that their pricing does relatively go up and hence the market size reduces.
4. Finally Brand. it stands for something and most folks are very careful about and many folks find it difficult to remove from their mind as to what a brand stands for when comparing.