Dipole \ Bipole surrounds for surround L & R, Surround Back L & R

[elangoas]

I have an Onkyo 7.1 HTIB (HTS-790). Recently upgraded the Onkyo BS to Mission M35i speakers. Planning to upgrade the Subwoofer in a months time. (Sonodyne SLF 200A). It is asuperb sub for 23K.

My friend a newbe is interetested in buying a HTIB. So i thought to dispose the entire 5.1 0r 7.1 speaker set to him, so that he can buy an receiver alone from Onkyo.

I am considering to upgrade my existing HT setup. Since i already purchased Mission M35i, thought to match the center channel speaker from Mission M3c2i. Now i need your suggestions for surround speakers...

Per my findings from the web, they say it is good to have a Dipole for Surround Left & Right & a Bipole setup for Surround back Left & Right...

I am planning Sonodyne dipole surronds (9K) for Surroud Left & Right. Should i go for Dipole (or) Bipole surrounds for Surround Back Left & right speakers.. Kindly suggest if any one has come across this kind of a setup...

 

[elangoas]

Any updates on this ????

 

[elangoas]

Can someone suggest.....

 

[spirovious]

Nission M series has good centrs(10k-14k),go with them,
SW can be wharf 150(18k)
Surr can be m30i.

 

[babloo64]

hi,Thanks Elangoas for the Information on Sonodyne Dealer.I went to the show room for Audition at VIPUL AUDIO TECH.Kilpauk.The effect was supprb,Mr.Praveen was really very helpful and Knowledgable Guy.He is very practical as per the common man's requirement.I am planning to buy Yamaha RX465 Receiver with SONODYNE FS 2605,Sonus Di-Pole Surround and Sonus v2 Centre As you had said earliar that Sub-woofer is not required with the Sonodyne 2605,Praveen also suggested that if it was for music purpose then you can ignore the sub for time being.
what do you suggest?

 

[sumeshj]

I have a pair of Wharfedale Diamond 9.DFS bipolar surrounds. I must say they give a much better surround experience than regular surrounds especially if the HT is setup in a living room which is not acoustically perfect.

The 9.DFS cost me 9.5K here in Pune.

 

[elangoas]

hi,Thanks Elangoas for the Information on Sonodyne Dealer.I went to the show room for Audition at VIPUL AUDIO TECH.Kilpauk.The effect was supprb,Mr.Praveen was really very helpful and Knowledgable Guy.He is very practical as per the common man's requirement.I am planning to buy Yamaha RX465 Receiver with SONODYNE FS 2605,Sonus Di-Pole Surround and Sonus v2 Centre As you had said earliar that Sub-woofer is not required with the Sonodyne 2605,Praveen also suggested that if it was for music purpose then you can ignore the sub for time being.
what do you suggest?

Yeah Sonodyne is really a very good product.. I would like to suggest you here is that get a thorough audition of this product before you finalise. Take some Audio CD's & DVD's to the showroom again. Play the CD/DVD on Yamaha receiver STRAIGHT mode, i mean without any BASS or TREBLE boost. The sound will be much different... Try that too and give your feedback..

 

[babloo64]

ok.i will do that tommorow.

 

[elangoas]

Nission M series has good centrs(10k-14k),go with them,
SW can be wharf 150(18k)
Surr can be m30i.

I haven't auditioned Wharf Sub... But i loved the Sonodyne SLF 200A. I think this is the only subwoofer which has an crossover adjustment from 40 - 150 Hz.. Other subs in the same category have 50 - 150 Hz... Moreover, it comes with a remote & 2 MODES (Music & Movie).. Music mode is superb when a Stereo source is played.. So 99% i have finalised on the Subwoofer though i am yet to audition the Def Tech Pro Sub 800 Model...

What is the approx price for Mission center channel speaker. 10K seems a bit high... I am interested more in Dipole surrounds for L & R.... I believe Mission does not have dipole surrounds.. They have only Bipole surrounds....

I think Dipole would sound better than Bipole...

 

[spirovious]

Its nothing like that,one type needs perfect balanced position & other can sound best even on rear walls.

 

[elangoas]

Its nothing like that,one type needs perfect balanced position & other can sound best even on rear walls.

Do you mean Dipole best suits surround L & R, & Bipole do best on the surround rear walls...

 

[spirovious]

Bipole(firing both the sides)are good as you can keep them on either side walls OR rear.
Dipole has to be on side wall exactly in the line of listening position to get correct effect.

What are Direct, Bipole and Dipole Surround Sound Speakers? - Overview of Surround Sound Speaker Types - Direct, Bipole and Dipole Speakers
Dipole speaker - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[elangoas]

Bipole(firing both the sides)are good as you can keep them on either side walls OR rear.
Dipole has to be on side wall exactly in the line of listening position to get correct effect.

What are Direct, Bipole and Dipole Surround Sound Speakers? - Overview of Surround Sound Speaker Types - Direct, Bipole and Dipole Speakers
Dipole speaker - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thanks for the update Spirovious...

There is no place where i can audition Dipole + Bipole setup together... I need to take chances on the configuration and then decide..

I will ask the Sonodyne dealer for 2 pairs of Dipole speakers for Home audition & then decide...

 

[surendar]

Thanks for the update Spirovious...

There is no place where i can audition Dipole + Bipole setup together... I need to take chances on the configuration and then decide..

I will ask the Sonodyne dealer for 2 pairs of Dipole speakers for Home audition & then decide...

Polk Audio FXiA6 or FXiA4 are good bipole/Dipole speakers. I have a FXiA4 in my HT set up and it is amazing. You can have audition at pro FX showroom in Spenzer plaza Chennai. They have them on display.

 

[elangoas]

Polk Audio FXiA6 or FXiA4 are good bipole/Dipole speakers. I have a FXiA4 in my HT set up and it is amazing. You can have audition at pro FX showroom in Spenzer plaza Chennai. They have them on display.

What is the cost of Polk Dipole. For how much did you buy it (Pair)..

 

[surendar]

What is the cost of Polk Dipole. For how much did you buy it (Pair)..

FXi A6 - 28K
FXi A4 - 21K

You can expect atleast 10% discount.

http://profx.com/contact_us.asp#chennai

 

[preatis]

I agree that the Polk FXi A6 and A4 are fantastic speakers, I still have a pair of the A6's and they are great "room fillers". The only reason they are still in use however (and not rewired) is because of the convenient switch on it for bipole or dipole selection.

I think there may be some confusion about the difference of bipole / dipole speakers because of a link given in this thread. It states that "in phase means played at the same time and out of phase means only one side plays at a time" - this is "easy" to understand but NOT at all what it does.

So to clarify i am not sure if a set of 2 mixed dipole/ bipole speakers should be used at all (in 7.1).

The dipole was initially designed for a 5.1 matrix neo pattern that would switch the phase one one side of the 45 degree split using 3.2(1).1 (hybrid 5.1) to emulate the 3.3.1 (6.1) effect (NOT 7.1). These dipole speakers came with one side of the speaker intentionally "hooked up wrong". This opened the door for "logic" proceed sound that could add a rear channel by sharing the surround channels, it was GENIUS! NEO ( and some others) sound processing would alternate the left and right "rear" polarity at times even switching the left and right channels to emulate depth and movement around the room. Playing a "bee" or plane around the room effect was incredible and at times it seemed to have added additional speakers in the far front right and left of the room. The problem was these "rear" speakers were still shared with the 2 surround speakers (hence the reason one side was 180 degrees phased) and this limitation was broken when 3.3.1 and 3.4.1 (7.1) discrete audio was developed. This eliminated ANY need for a dipole rear speaker unless it was processed using old 2005 dts neo / matrix systems.

Now they CAN serve another purpose as when installed properly the rear bipole speakers can eliminate the sound efficiency of the left "surround side" by playing the inverted wave through the rear left speaker and playing (or delaying) a different sound from the left side of the right rear speaker creating a reverb sound off the front left corner of the room, this would be useful if you have 5.1 media and are using some "logic" processing. At any time you have 7.1 media processed correctly dipoles would be worthless, in my opinion, and actually harm the sound.

We all know the basics that wave frequencies "phase out" each other when influenced by the same wave that is opposite phase. Most know that the sound produced from the back of a speaker is the inverted phase that cancels out the sound efficiency of the front. This is the main acoustical dilemma that created outrageous box ideas in the 80's and 90's. Everyone searched for that box design that would utilize the (currently wasted) sound created by the rear of the speaker and double the speaker efficiency with no delay in the response time or bleedover. This was of course impossible and the best ported box separates and/ or changes the sound of the rear sound (long) enough to assume the waves wont cancel out, providing more efficient bass with a decreased response time. (Trade off)

If you get two speakers and one has the polarity reversed (switch the positive and negative) it will sound as if both speakers were behind a wall, simply unplugging one would increase the DB's more than twice (9-12 Db). Adding the second speaker in the correct polarity would increase it another 3db - ish. If you add a mix of bipoles and dipoles you must consider what sound you want "phased out". Bipoles always have one side that generates the same frequency but phased on one side of the speaker (usually the sub side) of the bipole speaker. Just for explanation if your girl friend brings over a song on her iphone and you are playing all-channel stereo because you have 2.0 analog (or LPCM) input and these bipoles are pointed in the direction of any other speaker it will cancel out the low and mids those speakers produced. It creates a muffled flat sound and in MY EXPERIENCE makes your 7.1 worse. Its like buying all this nice gear to place acoustical foam in between you and your speakers.

I would recommend directs on the sur - left and right and Dipoles in the rear or BOTH Dipoles or MAYBE Dipoles SL_R and direct rear. NO BIPOLE AT ALL! The only use I can think of for bipoles is a 7.1 hybrid HIGH-9.1 (5.4.1) that shares the rear channels with the Front High's that uses DD PLIIz.

If my understanding and experience is neglecting anything please inform me to the current usage of why we would need to have two or four speakers phased out. I can wire half my speakers backwards but if my unit doesn't know its not gonna do anything to fix it and sound like junk!.

I even go as far as to rewire Boston Acoustic bipoles into dipoles, so they can fit in a true 7.1 9.1(2) environment...

 

[Sumanta]

AFAIK, bipole driver needs 3 feet wall behind its magnet. Can a surround speaker afford that?
Plus, what is the use of having a bipole based sound image in the rear? To me, surround speakers are for environmental, 360 degree feel for the story.

OT: Please educate me with link or writing for the use of bipole in surround. I will be appreciating it a lot.