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DIY - Sealed Subwoofer's (External powered)..

elangoas

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Hi All,

This DIY is for my brother..

Idea is to build dual sealed subwoofers, powered by a stereo power amplifier and paired with AVR (sub-out)..

What we have : A Sonodyne 2 channel power amplifier unused.. (100 Watts in 8 ohms two channels driven and abt 150 watts in 4 ohms capable)..

What we plan to do : Have seen plenty of passive car subwoofer drivers on amazon.in abt 3,000 Rs (or) lil more for a 12inch driver.. Would they make a good choice for home use, am not so sure.. Buying two of these drivers, shouldn't cost more than 6 (or) 7K.. and a capable 18mm plywood as enclosure for both (MDF isn't easily aval), shouldn't cost more than 7K.. So two passive subwoofers, powered by a stereo power amplifier..

Some 12 inch driver on amazon.in - https://www.amazon.in/Pioneer-TS-W306R-12-inch-Subwoofer-Black/dp/B01JP7B4A8/ref=pd_sim_23_4?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=Q8XN59GFDNMXSAN7KB38

Will use single RCA (AVR sub-out) to dual RCA inputs on Stereo power amplifier.. And connect the passive subs like how we connect speakers..

Neither me, nor my brother have DIY experience with subwoofer build.. So not aware of limitations of this build.. Would like to get some clarity on this topic..

Appreciate your inputs..
 
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Dr.Lakshay

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Even i was thinking to try my car's polk audio subwoofer for home audio purposes. Car subwoofers go lower than a comparably priced home audio subwoofer. But car subwoofers need more power I suppose. High power amplifiers for home are costly. So I was thinking of using my car amp and subwoofer with a 12v psu. That ways I just have to get a psu and can reuse my car audio components but will have to use an rca splitter.
One member from gearheads forum was using his Rockford Sub similarly in his home setup and says it performs well.
Hooked to your diy and waiting for the results.
Building a simple subwoofer box should not be very difficult. Also IMO you should benefit from two different boxes for both the subwoofers. And generally building a single subwoofer box for car can range from 1500-2500. So two boxes = 5000rs max.
 

danielnaveen2003

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Hi All,

This DIY is for my brother..

Idea is to build dual sealed subwoofers, powered by a stereo power amplifier and paired with AVR (sub-out)..

What we have : A Sonodyne 2 channel power amplifier unused.. (100 Watts in 8 ohms two channels driven and abt 150 watts in 4 ohms capable)..
This power wont be adequate. I use a DIY sealed 10 inch sub (TC sounds EPIC) and I power it with a inuke 1000 dsp which is bridged to 1000 watts and the amp still clips sometimes. If you insist on using a lower power amp you will have to go ported, if space is not a issue and you want a musical sub go with a transmission line.

What we plan to do : Have seen plenty of passive car subwoofer drivers on amazon.in abt 3,000 Rs (or) lil more for a 12inch driver.. Would they make a good choice for home use, am not so sure.. Buying two of these drivers, shouldn't cost more than 6 (or) 7K.. and a capable 18mm plywood as enclosure for both (MDF isn't easily aval), shouldn't cost more than 7K.. So two passive subwoofers, powered by a stereo power amplifier..

Some 12 inch driver on amazon.in - https://www.amazon.in/Pioneer-TS-W306R-12-inch-Subwoofer-Black/dp/B01JP7B4A8/ref=pd_sim_23_4?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=Q8XN59GFDNMXSAN7KB38
Try to get the T/S parameter of the sub that you want to use. Enclosure recommendations for the sub by the manufacturer are useless when using it at home as car cabin gains are way higher. Model the sub in WIN ISD or something similar and check the SPL and how much power it can handle without exceeding its xmax. You will probably have to build a tiny box with a higher Q and then use a DSP to correct the low the end. I am guessing something similar can be achieved with auto setup found on AVRs but i have never tried it, I correct it using the inuke's built in DSP.
 

elangoas

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This power wont be adequate. I use a DIY sealed 10 inch sub (TC sounds EPIC) and I power it with a inuke 1000 dsp which is bridged to 1000 watts and the amp still clips sometimes.
1000 Watts and still the amplifier clips :oops:.. How big is your room?..

Most active subs have only 150w power.. Am i missing any technical information?..

If you insist on using a lower power amp you will have to go ported, if space is not a issue and you want a musical sub go with a transmission line.
I considered a sealed sub, as it would be the easiest to build for a novice DIYer..

Try to get the T/S parameter of the sub that you want to use. Enclosure recommendations for the sub by the manufacturer are useless when using it at home as car cabin gains are way higher. Model the sub in WIN ISD or something similar and check the SPL and how much power it can handle without exceeding its xmax. You will probably have to build a tiny box with a higher Q and then use a DSP to correct the low the end. I am guessing something similar can be achieved with auto setup found on AVRs but i have never tried it, I correct it using the inuke's built in DSP.
Lot of technical information..

When i was going thru the specs of the 12 inch driver, it was suggested as 1.25 cuft for a sealed enclosure.. My thoughts were to make cuboid dimensions plywood box for 1.25 cuft, seal the corners with an adhesive and fix the driver..
 

danielnaveen2003

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1000 Watts and still the amplifier clips :oops:.. How big is your room?..

Most active subs have only 150w power.. Am i missing any technical information?..
There are very few sealed active subs at the entry level in the market today, they are either ported or they have a passive radiator. When you look at sealed subs you will see they need around 1000 watts of power and you will also notice most of them have a DSP built in and they will have a huge xmax (thats a lotta and's). When you say 150 watts of power is what the sub has, then you are most probably looking at a ported sub, where the port is enhancing its low end response. I personally do not like ported subs but they are the most economical way of creating huge quantities of bass.


I considered a sealed sub, as it would be the easiest to build for a novice DIYer..
Building a ported sub need not be any more complex than a sealed on, if you are unsure of your DIY capability let a car audio installer build it for you. Use a slotted port for simplicity. In today's worlds sealed subs are only used for high end musical subs as they just waste too much power, using low power amps and low xmax sub's to build a sealed sub is most certainly going to disappoint you as they simply won't have enough SPL in the low frequencies.


Lot of technical information..

When i was going thru the specs of the 12 inch driver, it was suggested as 1.25 cuft for a sealed enclosure.. My thoughts were to make cuboid dimensions plywood box for 1.25 cuft, seal the corners with an adhesive and fix the driver..
Like I mentioned earlier this is a recommendation for a car, car cabin gain kicks in early and can give massive boosts to the SPL. Also please consider that the car is a fully sealed environment. To adapt a car subwoofer to a home environment you will need to model it first and check the relationship between input watts, SPL and xmax to see how loud the sub can go without destroying itself and how much power you will need. You will also need to look at the resonance frequency of the Sub you choose to use, as low end car subs tend to have a high Fs.

Which ever route you choose, If the sonodyne amp is brigdeable I would recommend bridging it and using one sub. As trying to calibrate 2 subs on a AVR with just one sub out and no DSP is a world of pain.
 

Dr.Lakshay

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Could you share a link for 12V PSU for car amplifiers..How much do these cost?..
They could range anything from 1500 bucks to 10k.
But to power a car amplifier you need a psu capable of Atleast 650 Watts. Something like this.
https://www.google.co.in/aclk?sa=L&ai=DChcSEwiFoYHrzL3YAhXOCisKHdYIDwUYABAHGgJzZg&ae=1&sig=AOD64_3x07-A-hG8icpmZ52YB7ON9a7YNw&ctype=5&q=&ved=0ahUKEwjrlfjqzL3YAhXKKY8KHStfARIQwg8IIQ&adurl=https://www.amazon.in/Corsair-CP-9020098-WW-VS650-Power-Supply/dp/B00DQ5KF0Q?tag=googinhydr18418-21
There are cheaper ones too by brands like intex etc.

You could buy a sealed one like this sub below for about 5k and save a lot of money instead of making your own sealed box.
https://paytmmall.com/jbl-cs1204b-car-audio-sealed-subwoofr-box-CMPLXAUTJBL-CS1204B-CAR-3465497838F5D-pdp?product_id=55768380&src=search-grid&tracker=||||||87||||&discoverability=online&src=store&utm_source=paytm&utm_medium=affiliate&utm_campaign=redirection&utm_content=/&utm_term=16CL498bfcfaf3695a76bc610f3c3253a70b

Though as the fm daniel said a fine tuned ported would be better than sealed and a transmission line would be the best to get the performance out of the sub. But transmission line won't be easy to build for sure.
 

Dr.Lakshay

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I personally do not like ported subs but they are the most economical way of creating huge quantities of bass.
I agree to that from personal experience. But some of the good (or best) car audio installers say that a well designed and tuned ported can give better sq than sealed.
Also I run my 350watts rms polk sub from an amp capable of 200watts rms in a sealed enclosure in my car and it gets loud enough without clipping. But if I push it (though not needed) the amp does trip. Similarly you could use a low powered amp to power a sub but you won't realise the true potential of the sub which would be needed for home audio, as the space would be way bigger than a car.
 

danielnaveen2003

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I agree to that from personal experience. But some of the good (or best) car audio installers say that a well designed and tuned ported can give better sq than sealed.
Also I run my 350watts rms polk sub from an amp capable of 200watts rms in a sealed enclosure in my car and it gets loud enough without clipping. But if I push it (though not needed) the amp does trip. Similarly you could use a low powered amp to power a sub but you won't realise the true potential of the sub which would be needed for home audio, as the space would be way bigger than a car.
The challenge between ported or sealed in a car is a completely different ball game. There you are trying to ensure the port tuning is kept high enough so that the car's cabin gain doesn't make the bass boomy.

I don't recommend sealed subs for home theaters. They are more for music as making them perform well at low frequencies needs a boat load of power and a way to EQ them. Music on the other hand (ignoring drum and bass , dub step and etc etc) doesn't need bass below 40 hz and that's were simple sealed subs work best.
 

Dr.Lakshay

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This power wont be adequate. I use a DIY sealed 10 inch sub (TC sounds EPIC) and I power it with a inuke 1000 dsp which is bridged to 1000 watts and the amp still clips sometimes.
That 1000watts is max and rms should be quite a lot lower than that. Max values mean nothing.

The challenge between ported or sealed in a car is a completely different ball game. There you are trying to ensure the port tuning is kept high enough so that the car's cabin gain doesn't make the bass boomy.
True.
I don't recommend sealed subs for home theaters. They are more for music as making them perform well at low frequencies needs a boat load of power and a way to EQ them. Music on the other hand (ignoring drum and bass , dub step and etc etc) doesn't need bass below 40 hz and that's were simple sealed subs work best.
Well that means cutting out on most of my music
My polk sub gets pretty low to about 28-30hz as tested using test tones and even below but the response starts getting weaker.
If I could get a psu I would definitely try my sealed sub at home. I am not able to justify buying a 5k psu just for an experiment.
 
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danielnaveen2003

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That 1000watts is max and rms should be quite a lot lower than that. Max values mean nothing.


True.

Well that means cutting out on most of my music
My polk sub gets pretty low to about 28-30hz as tested using test tones and even below but the response starts getting weaker.
If I could get a psu I would definitely try my sealed sub at home. I am not able to justify buying a 5k psu just for an experiment.
The inuke 1000dsp is 750 watts rms @4 ohms bridged, with a peak of 1050 watts which is why you will see a lotta people running it as a sub amp. I'm assuming you played test tones in the car which is why your getting a usable SPL at 30. Without the cabin gain you wont get that. You can try corner loading it in a room but absolute SPL will be a bit low. Having said all this I use a sealed sub for movies and music. You can't go the sealed way to save money, you will have to get a powerful amp and a sub with a high xmax for it to work. In OPs case using a ported sub can make it work with his existing amp.
 

elangoas

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There are very few sealed active subs at the entry level in the market today, they are either ported or they have a passive radiator. When you look at sealed subs you will see they need around 1000 watts of power and you will also notice most of them have a DSP built in and they will have a huge xmax (thats a lotta and's). When you say 150 watts of power is what the sub has, then you are most probably looking at a ported sub, where the port is enhancing its low end response. I personally do not like ported subs but they are the most economical way of creating huge quantities of bass.
Yes right.. Sealed subs have more power.. But i believe, that extra power (3 dB of SPL or more ) is to match the SPL reqd for movies, assuming the users takes one sub..

As with any two subs, there is a 3 dB addition of SPL.. Which also translates to lesser power demands from a single sub.. All this thoeritically, from what i have read..

So in my case, since going for dual subs, i would get 3dB SPL.. (other factors not considered)..

Building a ported sub need not be any more complex than a sealed on, if you are unsure of your DIY capability let a car audio installer build it for you. Use a slotted port for simplicity.

In today's worlds sealed subs are only used for high end musical subs as they just waste too much power, using low power amps and low xmax sub's to build a sealed sub is most certainly going to disappoint you as they simply won't have enough SPL in the low frequencies.
One more reason for dropping the ported subs is, we are not sure of how much diameter, width of the port should be.. Didn't want to screw first build..

Have never auditioned sealed subs, moreover they are also very expensive..Hence evaluating options..

Like I mentioned earlier this is a recommendation for a car, car cabin gain kicks in early and can give massive boosts to the SPL. Also please consider that the car is a fully sealed environment.
Right.. Understand.. In a car, the subwoofer driver is more closer to the listener say 3 feet which also demands less power..

To adapt a car subwoofer to a home environment you will need to model it first and check the relationship between input watts, SPL and xmax to see how loud the sub can go without destroying itself and how much power you will need. You will also need to look at the resonance frequency of the Sub you choose to use, as low end car subs tend to have a high Fs.
I don't have enough understanding of some terms.. trying to grab them..

Which ever route you choose, If the sonodyne amp is brigdeable I would recommend bridging it and using one sub.
Yes the Sonodyne amp is bridgeable..

As trying to calibrate 2 subs on a AVR with just one sub out and no DSP is a world of pain.
It is a Denon x 2200 with Audyssey Multi EQ XT, capable of EQing one sub only.. But have read/ been suggested that you can connect two subs using a Y cable, so that the AVR treats dual subs as one & applies EQ to both..
 
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elangoas

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The inuke 1000dsp is 750 watts rms @4 ohms bridged, with a peak of 1050 watts which is why you will see a lotta people running it as a sub amp.
Just wondering, why does it clip for you..

You can't go the sealed way to save money, you will have to get a powerful amp and a sub with a high xmax for it to work. In OPs case using a ported sub can make it work with his existing amp.
True what you are saying.. call me greedy :p.. Anyways, just evaluating options..

They could range anything from 1500 bucks to 10k.
But to power a car amplifier you need a psu capable of Atleast 650 Watts. Something like this.
There are cheaper ones too by brands like intex etc.
You can trust the corsair power supplies.. But not the intex/iball ones.. They hardly can help power even a PC with more storage + powerless GPU..
 

danielnaveen2003

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Just wondering, why does it clip for you..
The TC sounds epic 10 is a power hungry speaker. And I have it in a undersized sealed box with a 6 db boost on the dsp at 25hz. The speaker can handle it as it has a 18mm xmax. But the amp just runs out of headroom in certain scenes when listen to at reference level for example the black hole entry in intersteller. I usually don't watch movies at reference levels as it's a sure fire way to get kicked out of my apartment complex but it does clip. A ported sub can easily reach those level which a fraction of the power.

Once you finalize your driver share the t/s specs with me and I'll try to quickly plot them in win ISD for sealed and ported.
 

Dr.Lakshay

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Once you finalize your driver share the t/s specs with me and I'll try to quickly plot them in win ISD for sealed and ported.
Could you please do that for my sub? I don't have any knowledge to try it out myself. If yes I'll drop you pm instead of cluttering the op's thread.
 

elangoas

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Once you finalize your driver share the t/s specs with me and I'll try to quickly plot them in win ISD for sealed and ported.
Thank You..I had shared the above Pioneer subwoofer as example.. But, don't have any clue if it is a good fit or not..

Pioneer TS-W306R 12-inch Car Subwoofer - https://www.amazon.in/Pioneer-TS-W306R-12-inch-Subwoofer-Black/dp/B01JP7B4A8/ref=pd_sim_23_4?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=Q8XN59GFDNMXSAN7KB38

Here are detailed specs of the driver - https://www.pioneer-car.eu/eur/products/ts-w306r/specifications

Main Features

Sensitivity 96 dB
Impedance 4 Ω
Woofer material IMPP
Voice Coil bobbin type Aluminium
Mounting Depth 135 mm
Cut-out Hole 281 mm
Recom. Enclosure [l] 35,4
Recom. Enclosure [ft3] 1,25
Size 30 cm
Maximum power input 1300
Nominal input power 350 W
Frequency response 20 - 125 Hz

Thiele/Small Parameters

Sd [m2] 5,156E-02
Hvc [In] 1,23
Sd [ft2] 0,55
VC.Diameter [mm] 40
Revc [O] 3,6 Ω
Eff [%] 0,17
Levc [mH] (2000Hz) 1,81 mH
S.P.L. [dB] 96 dB
Xmax [mm] 11,7
R.M.S.Power [W] 350 W
Xmax [in] 0,46
M.M.P. [W] 1300 W
Zmax [O] 46,8 Ω
Sp. Displacement [l] 1,09
Nom. Dia.(In) 30 см
BI [Tm] 10,3 Tm
Sp. Displacement [ft3] 0,038
Qts 0,81
Rms[Ns/m] 1,53 Ns/m
Qms 15,6
Mms [g] 153,9 g
Qes 0,86
Cms [m/N] 0,27 mm/N
F0 (in Cabinet) 48,5 Hz
Fs [Hz] 24,6 Hz
Mg.Wt.[g] 840 g
Q0 (in Cabinet) 1,60
Vas [l] 102,1
Flux Density [Gauss] 619 mT
Vas [ft3] 3,61
Hag [mm] 8
Vd [l] 0,60
Hag [In] 0,31
Vd [ft3] 2,12E-0
Hvc [mm] 31,3

If you feel this driver is not good, please suggest an alternate one aval on amazon.in (or) flipkart.. If there are any popular, bigger and better drivers, i will also try to source locally from car audio dealers as they are more accessible..

If yes I'll drop you pm instead of cluttering the op's thread.
Np.. You can continue here, as anyways you are also using the car subwoofer for home..
 

danielnaveen2003

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Thank You..I had shared the above Pioneer subwoofer as example.. But, don't have any clue if it is a good fit or not..

Pioneer TS-W306R 12-inch Car Subwoofer - https://www.amazon.in/Pioneer-TS-W306R-12-inch-Subwoofer-Black/dp/B01JP7B4A8/ref=pd_sim_23_4?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=Q8XN59GFDNMXSAN7KB38

Here are detailed specs of the driver - https://www.pioneer-car.eu/eur/products/ts-w306r/specifications

Main Features

Sensitivity 96 dB
Impedance 4 Ω
Woofer material IMPP
Voice Coil bobbin type Aluminium
Mounting Depth 135 mm
Cut-out Hole 281 mm
Recom. Enclosure [l] 35,4
Recom. Enclosure [ft3] 1,25
Size 30 cm
Maximum power input 1300
Nominal input power 350 W
Frequency response 20 - 125 Hz

Thiele/Small Parameters

Sd [m2] 5,156E-02
Hvc [In] 1,23
Sd [ft2] 0,55
VC.Diameter [mm] 40
Revc [O] 3,6 Ω
Eff [%] 0,17
Levc [mH] (2000Hz) 1,81 mH
S.P.L. [dB] 96 dB
Xmax [mm] 11,7
R.M.S.Power [W] 350 W
Xmax [in] 0,46
M.M.P. [W] 1300 W
Zmax [O] 46,8 Ω
Sp. Displacement [l] 1,09
Nom. Dia.(In) 30 см
BI [Tm] 10,3 Tm
Sp. Displacement [ft3] 0,038
Qts 0,81
Rms[Ns/m] 1,53 Ns/m
Qms 15,6
Mms [g] 153,9 g
Qes 0,86
Cms [m/N] 0,27 mm/N
F0 (in Cabinet) 48,5 Hz
Fs [Hz] 24,6 Hz
Mg.Wt.[g] 840 g
Q0 (in Cabinet) 1,60
Vas [l] 102,1
Flux Density [Gauss] 619 mT
Vas [ft3] 3,61
Hag [mm] 8
Vd [l] 0,60
Hag [In] 0,31
Vd [ft3] 2,12E-0
Hvc [mm] 31,3

If you feel this driver is not good, please suggest an alternate one aval on amazon.in (or) flipkart.. If there are any popular, bigger and better drivers, i will also try to source locally from car audio dealers as they are more accessible..



Np.. You can continue here, as anyways you are also using the car subwoofer for home..
Sure let me get home and I'll work on it tonight. I got your pm too lakshay. And as mentioned in the pm your sub is a low qts sub it will not model well in a sealed enclosure. But I will put up the model here.
 

danielnaveen2003

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Okay here are some standard box calculations for the polk all settings have been left at default and no optimisation has been done to the box sizes


Shown here are the recommended box sizes and response curves for both sealed (yellow) and vented


This is the cone excursion assuming 150 watts of input, it starts exceeding its xmax at 30 hz


expected SPL at 150 watts assuming no room gain and at 30 hz its 100db, the THX ref level for a subwoofer is 115db so unless you are expecting room gain to be 15db this is gonna be short, you cant EQ it with a DSP as your sub is already at the limit of its xmax. Alternatively, the ported enclosure is at 108db at 30hz with 150 watts

Ofcourse we can optimize this further if your room gain is a known number. All you need is a near field response measurement of your current sub (preferably outdoor where there shouldn't be any additional gains other than the proximity to the floor) and then a measurement of the response in the actual room.
 

Dr.Lakshay

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Okay here are some standard box calculations for the polk all settings have been left at default and no optimisation has been done to the box sizes


Shown here are the recommended box sizes and response curves for both sealed (yellow) and vented


This is the cone excursion assuming 150 watts of input, it starts exceeding its xmax at 30 hz


expected SPL at 150 watts assuming no room gain and at 30 hz its 100db, the THX ref level for a subwoofer is 115db so unless you are expecting room gain to be 15db this is gonna be short, you cant EQ it with a DSP as your sub is already at the limit of its xmax. Alternatively, the ported enclosure is at 108db at 30hz with 150 watts

Ofcourse we can optimize this further if your room gain is a known number. All you need is a near field response measurement of your current sub (preferably outdoor where there shouldn't be any additional gains other than the proximity to the floor) and then a measurement of the response in the actual room.
That was sooner than expected. Thanks alot.
Sorry to say but the details aren't easily readable in the uploaded pics. If you could share via Google drive maybe then it would be great.
Now from what I could almost read, it says the box volume for sealed to be 37L, where as my current box is only 25L.
Also the graph shows the xmax at 8mm whereas it is 16mm according to the specs, considering that the sub won't reach its xmax in a sealed enclosure at all. So I guess when you correct the xmax and the input watt increased to some 300watts we would get better results. This is a 360watts rms capable sub. And I have been feeding it 200watts rms, according to this the sub should have been blown i guess already. Please do the changes. Thanks.
Also is this software easy to use? I'll like to get my hands on it.
 
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