DIYers... Do You Measure?

Thad E Ginathom

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Maybe I should say that I do not mean this question in any controversial way. In fact I am more than happy to take the word of some of our experienced HFVers' ears, and this is not at all about the subjective/objective thing, but...

DIYers, do you measure? Is that even possible with anechoic rooms (for speakers) and all? And if you do, how and what do you measure?

Just curious and desiring to learn.
 
Thad,

I will limit my post to loudspeakers because

a. they interact with the room
b. convert electrical energy into mechanical/acoustical energy
c. are an area I might know a little more about that amplifiers and other electronics.

I used to use LSP Cad, LEAP/LMS, MLSSA (pronounced Melissa) etc to measure a loudspeaker but only in the design stage. As a listener I am hard pressed to find a tool more accurate than the human ear and for the matter do we even need one?

If in the end what we hear matters, and if that hearing is subjective then in the final analysis measuring a loudspeaker's response in a room serves one of 3 purposes.

a. to find out if something is wrong (usually drastic enough where room placement / treatment cannot compensate)
b. make one feel good that one's loudspeaker can produce 120db at 30Hz or is +/- 5db from 100Hz to 20khz whatever one's goals are.
c. supplement and allow the reviewer a reason to explain the performance of a loudspeaker.

Since neither b or c apply to me, let's restrict ourselves to a. It has been a while, that I have found ANY good loudspeaker that is seriously deficient and cannot be made to serve any purpose in any listening room.

Thanks to the power of computers and software like LSP, LEAP/LMS, CalSod, Clio, MLSSA a loudspeaker designer can make an "acceptable sounding" loudspeaker for not a whole lot of money and without a whole lot of effort or experience.

that there exists today a few really poor loudspeakers despite all this is testament to the ability of the human race's need to CHEAT their fellow man.
 
I don't or rather can't measure my DIY projects. I just don't have any measuring equipment.

I most of the time take trial and error method to accomplish my goal. For example, my recent DIY BS speakers for my HT front channels. I made 3 different enclosures and eventually the 3rd one is sounding best. I am too tired of breaking it again so living with it. In the same project I tried 5-6 crossovers with different orders and different XO frequencies. I somehow now settled with it.

I believe my ear in this case. The dialogues are coming clear and loud enough, there is not much cabinet vibration, woofers are not wobbling too much and the frequency range and dynamics are good. That's it :)
 
Hi Koushik,

You sound like the cook who while stirring the broth, keeps on tasting it and then add ingredients as needed. Once it is perfect, he stops stirring it and serves it hot.

I think this method would work with speakers too (I know I am stirring the devil's hornet here!!!) but I guess it would be very expensive and consume a lot of time and other resources.

Vinod
 
But it does sound like it needs a huge amount of work, and dedication. I think it was Hari who, on another thread, said that DIY is not necessarily cheaper because one has to pay for the failures.
 
Whoever equates DIY to cheap, should rethink. Measurement is but one side of it.

It costs time, money, patience, work, dedication and lots of other things to make a project a success.
Totally agree! Success? What's that ;-)
 
But it does sound like it needs a huge amount of work, and dedication. I think it was Hari who, on another thread, said that DIY is not necessarily cheaper because one has to pay for the failures.

Yes that is very true. My speakers should cost 1.2K each but ended up nearly 1.8K each and that also when I reused the MDF tactfully :cool:

It costs time, money, patience, work, dedication and lots of other things to make a project a success.

Well, when you have some of those but money, you go DIY way .. he he he :lol:
 
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That's why many people go by safe routes.Just search for proved,
tested designs with measurements and make DiY accordingly.
lf you still dont like it, then you need room correction.
 
I will be using speaker workshop for the measurements. You do not need an anechoic room for measurement if you are measuring in the near-field (MLSA)(< 1/2" from driver cone) or even near-field (1 meter from driver axis). You can take the gated response and splice it for the equivalent anechoic response. The room needs to be reasonably large over 150 sq.ft and the speaker needs to be placed in the centre of the room with minimum reflections as far as possible. The speaker workshop software allows you to do all these.

Measurements are of two type Objective and Subjective,

Objective measurements are done by the software like speaker workshop using a microphone in the near field and mid-field. The frequency domain and time domain graph will allow to review the SPL and phase. The impedance and its phase can also be plotted. With these objective measurements you can apply tweaks to the cross-over and re-measure till you are satisfied with the graph.

Subjective measurements are done with reference music with our ears probably by one or two more people to conclude our theory and practice. With the reference music you listen to your speakers and apply the final tweak for the far field (around 8 to 9 feet from the speakers). This will make the speaker sound accurate.

Analogy - Its like going to an optician for your spectales. The computer eye testing machine will measure your short sight and long sight measurement but you do not order for your spectale based on that. This is objective measurement. You also do a subjective meaurement by reading a small book or looking at the chart. The doctor then change the lens till your focus is accurate. This is subjective measurement. The doctor use the objecive reading to arrive at the lens number that will be closer to your eye and then adjust them.

We have to follow similar procedure for the speakers too.
 
I've had my speakers for longer than I care to admit at this point. I ordered them based on price and basic specifications, as I did with the rest of my first stereo, without having heard any of it. It left much to be desired, to say the least.

Building speakers aren't really an interest to me. I have no shop in which to do it and the cost of that is entirely prohibitive in itself, although there are certain things that I would very much like to try.

You could no doubt find a lot wrong with my speakers. They're very square and boxy, which as I understand is likely what gives them a wide dispersion pattern. I happen to like that since in reality pin point stereo means in order to get any type of image your head is locked in a single special position and something always seems very off. That to me is purely annoying, and I much prefer the illusion of a full and rich soundfield, with realistic imaging from everywhere in it.

For a long time however their greatest detriment was sounding like a comb filter with gabs so wide you could land planes in. What would the cause of that be? Anybody have a guess? Probably several... would measurements reveal it?

The other great problem is they were unmatched in tonal response. One speaker didn't sound like the other at all. That's what you get with demos off the showroom floor via mail order. I would expect careful measurements in a proper environment to at least reveal the tonal imbalance, but the comb filter one I'm less certain of.

I bought far more than I could afford back in the day, and it had certain characteristics that were appealing but quality wise a complete let down, as was my receiver, which died an early death as junk commercial gear tends to do. I vowed to build my own amplifier as the only means available to me to ever have any real degree of quality. In that quest I've learned quite a bit, and even designed a self oscillating class d amplifier based on UCD, before anything much was known of it, and got it working on a breadboard using my finger as a heat probe and a cheap DMM.

I also transitioned from a cheap 1bit DAC cd jukebox to a 1GB hard drive and digital audio workstation for a source. That too is more cheap penny pinched commercial gear that shot itself in the foot and in terms of quality was entirely compromised.

Now you're combining the worst of all worlds, pc audio, class d amps, cerwin vegas..

Anyway, once I realized that no pristine topology was pristine enough in practice for things like appropriate component selection not to be significant, as well as other personal reasons, my focus forked towards trying to better understand and master component selection based on things like their materials, and unique construction.. how the myriad of variables would affect them and how that knowledge can be leveraged for an improved result overall.

Of course that also involves a more in depth mastery of their application as well. This relates to things like proper decoupling and bypassing specifically for audio. There are a multitude of legitimate methods in use but they aren't all the equivalent of one another, and consistently it is found that the same few solutions rise above the rest. In terms of mass production, you will just never see them, especially not today. It's also the type of thing where typical measures would not likely demonstrate any clear advantage, and at best you'd be looking at minute differences with no ability to discern an improvement from them. It's also very easy to fall into traps of confirmation bias and effecting perhaps positive change over narrow spectrums while at the direct cost of the rest of it.

Compounding the difficulty immeasurably as well is the fact that there is no pristine reference in the perfect room that doesn't exist to compare your efforts to. Speakers are junk. Amp is hurting in multiple ways.. some your fault perhaps, some the trusted manufacturer that pinched pennies and swears "X Y and Z" are beyond question, and then there's the DAW shambles that would get me a ban if I described it with due accuracy.

In fairness, I have to include my own ears in that, as things like health changes, patience drifts, you lean more towards one style of character more than some other. Hearing acuity further adapts to an incredible mess that your mind becomes accustomed to trying to decipher to the extent that typical audio reproduction and even natural sounds become less intelligible. But you know going into it that you lack such simple references and that realistically it's going to have to get far worse before it has any chance at getting better. There is the notion of pulling it up by the bootstraps, but this is more akin to wine tasting, only taking your sample at the tail end of the sewage plant and from within that darkest of sludge looking for the needle of fine aromas in the haystack as it teases your burnt pallet.

You have to become intimate with every part of the system, study up on it and identify the likely guiltiest flaws at the bottle necks and then effect a series of almost aimless changes on them, sort of as an impulse to a plant system under test, to see what the garbage it puts out will look like. Eventually you identify the worst pinchpoint and open something up, where you have to then re-iterate and find the next.

As you apply your increasing knowledge to the flaws you find, you have to fight a constant disgust with the burden they've saddled you with and your own burden of knowledge that there are such better solutions which remain unavailable to you. For example do I really need a $3k reclocker ooorr... maybe take a few 10 cent electrolytics and try beefing up the regulation and local bypassing. That's good and bad because your success will teach you that it's in fact incredibly weak, and that $3k solution would likely be something to behold, but you'll never see it and that 10 cent cap made a world of good that got you right out of the swamp, such that now the highs become discernable as well as the ambient image solidified between image focal points.. maybe the reclocker isn't needed after all?

I met someone back in the day when I first got my ugly speakers, they'd bought the $3k reclocker and had probably a dozen mini bookshelf speakers on laughably large stands in the attempt at creating a dispersed soundfield with focus. I remember it well because they were awaiting my praise and the review I gave it saw the guy leave the room in a silent rage. I didn't even mention the fact that it imaged like a reefed drunken banshee. I did however note that it sounded "all the same".. which I would now call vanilla. It was very sharply focused and seemingly clean (low jitter in all its glory), but at the end of the day it was still commercial garbage with junk power regulation (washy imaging), which is passed off falsely as "lifelike", but in every case is really just penny pinching and a lack of skill, and in terms of natural timber was entirely monotone and sterile. Despite his world class reclocker that he could not shut up about, I know now with certainty that he could have used a 10 cent cap somewhere.

I had a world of help when some generous soul send me a box of "audiophile" capacitors of every kind, from russian teflon coke cans to oil filled to teflon and tin with gold leads that cost $300 each and I'd never get to try in a lifetime otherwise. Overtime I tested a variety of others on my own and got to understand how the most expensive compares with the best, regardless of how they all fall on the price scale, and acquired an understand of why.

Those lessons learned were universally applicable. What worked on my power supply, worked in my amp, worked in my audio dock.. When it came to hating my speakers enough, I took a leap, and a $60 order of choice audio grade film caps was all it took to radically transform them into something pretty incredible. They still have the dispersed soundfield which I like, only now they're tonally identical, full of natural timber, absolutely noise and grain free with perfect fluidity. A low cost night and day improvement applied as a band-aid without any need to test or sample.. because it had all been done in the past already and the lessons were universal. What a thrill, after having been tortured by them for so long.

For all the times I had to endure my system, each time I turn it on now is a true thrill, because it performs in the ways that most matter with no obvious flaws and I would put it up against anything for any kind of music, speech, it just doesn't matter as it's entirely realistic and does it all very well. Good luck buying that. Good luck measuring that. Good luck finding a kit for that. That's more than ten years of hardcore chewing glass and bleeding gums, and that's what it takes. A little insanity and a whole lot of time.

The nice thing is that I am absolute in my knowledge that there is no $1000 exotic rare earth material capacitor that I could put in these speakers to make them sound any better at all than the ones I've chosen at a small fraction of the cost, and I can keep on applying my lessons that same way.

The other interesting thing I'd like to add is that this was all done in a chair in the corner of a completely asymmetrical room that was a total mess for audio. I could hear the walls and trained ears compensate. The system and the illusions it creates held up very well moving locations to yet another horrible room for audio, as well it should. Those aspects could no doubt improve, I'm not saying the room doesn't matter. But room correction is a bit of a joke, and other than basic treatments, few people get to build the dream these days so I think it's best to affect change where it makes the largest difference and is most realistic in the first place.

Speaker guys blame the amp guys and amp guys blame the speaker guys... I suppose there's a reason few people do both. When all else fails blame the room. I think it's the least important since it's the least you have control over and I know for a fact that even the best regarded gear likely has a long long way to go. Assuageons of subjectivity are also entirely false. Beethoven is played the same for everyone, but you will always find that the guy who spent $3k on a "pace car" is going to be more prone to a taste for vanilla, as will the guy who sold it to him. They couldn't be justified otherwise.
 
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The subjective measurements by listening are rubbish AFAIK. How do you subjectively cover the whole frequency spectrum? What is the reference point for the whole spectrum? And this is my POV. Need not be others.
 
Whoever equates DIY to cheap, should rethink. Measurement is but one side of it.

It costs time, money, patience, work, dedication and lots of other things to make a project a success.

<<<<With apologies to the OP for taking this further OT>>>>

So true.

First off, it eats into your intangibles. The first casualty is your valuable time. In fact the time it takes to complete the preparatories/preliminaries can be inordinately huge. By this, I mean the time it takes to go to market to seek out stuff we need, the time it takes to find out specialist workshops/persons, and place orders on specialty items like equipment cabinets or transformers, the frustration of not finding desirable parts and searching for acceptable alternatives, taking the time to understand parts and circuit layouts instead of making costly mistakes that can literally blow up in the face (especially true for folks like me who never delved deep into practical electronics - until now).

It also takes a lot of "stick-to-it-ivity" to finish projects that we start. I know, because I have lots of uncompleted projects (Pass B1 which is so close to completion, Mauro Penasa MyRef Rev C amp which is also so close to completion, rebuilding the Hypnotoad MC phono pre which simply stopped working one fine day:)).

Even more than the money, the investment in time is very valuable. But that is not to say that DIY-ing gears is cheap. Far from it, in absolute terms. I am currently building the Pass F5 Turbo version 2 and it has already costed me a scary amount of money, mainly because the heatsink requirement is truly humongous. The transformer too costs a lot. I need to spend at least 4 to 5 thousand more on the cabinet. I now realise why more people don't do it - it's not cheap.

But there is the other side of all this. I can't be happier with my GR Research X-LS Encore bookshelf speakers. I haven't heard many BS speakers but the ones I have heard in the one hundred thousand-ish rupee range are not necessarily superior to the Encores. In fact I would love to headbutt them to the Morel Signatures that costs at least 6 times more :)

Also, all the phono stages I have built have performed well above my modest expectations.

And now, to return to regular programming, no, I don't make measurements:lol: Mainly because I am not a designer but just a kit builder assembling a proven design.
 
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Trying not to go OT but want to add my 2 paise on the importance of measurement.

Measurements are among the most important things in my life. I am not a mason/carpenter/plumber, but I can't imagine life without an inch tape. I find myself running for the inch tape every single time I am thinking of "any" change in the house. The first thing that comes to my mind is - measurement.

PDCA is a very well known method. It's a brief mantra for success for millions around the globe. And in every step of this process, you need to measure. Are you planning? You gotta measure. Are you doing? You gotta measure. Are you checking? You gotta measure. You just can't do without measuring.

Whether a DIYer uses measurements to finish off his project or not, to tune his project or not, is up to the DIYer. But in other walks of life, measurements are absolutely vital. If you don't measure, you never know how are you doing. You are on track or off track, you won't know until you have the data supported by measurement.

Above is my general philosophy about life. It need not be the same for everyone, specially for people working on DIY audio gear, where subjective impressions can far outweigh the objective measurements.
 
By one of those amazing coincidences that internet browsing brings our way, I just found myself watching Loudspeaker Measurements Explained, a presentation by John Atkinson..

Although I believe in objectivity, I don't get on very well with numbers (innumerate might be an understatement :eek:) and I find them, and graphs (and stuff) very difficult to cope with. This presentation explained a whole lot of stuff, and it also put a human face to the whole thing, making it all much more accessible. Apart from basic explanations, he talks about what he can see in the results, how the measurements can lie, and gives some insight into how reviews and measurements can be completely at odds with each other. Even for those who know how to read the graphs and diagrams, it might be an hour well spent.

I was, specifically, wondering to what extent our DIYers, many of whom seem to be very skilled, use measuring tools in their design and tuning. Whilst I had speakers on my mind, I left the question open to all DIYers.

The responses are very interesting :)

BTW, I have never thought that DIY is cheap, but it is true that, when making stuff for oneself, one is free of the economic imperatives of the commercial world, of which, perhaps, the biggest is that one is not paying oneself by the hour. There is, I guess, also the satisfaction of achievement, and the technical learning; paybacks one does not get from buying gear in a shop.

I'm not much good at either electronics or woodwork, so I don't know if I will ever experience this for myself, but I have a sense of it from the years when I made jewellery, purely on a self-taught, non-commercial (although I sold stuff sometimes) basis. It was good to learn. It was good to go from the two or three whole evenings it took me to make my first item, a plain silver band ring, to being able to "knock out" a wedding ring in an hour or two.

I can imagine that that the satisfaction from making hifi gear that sounds really good must be just amazing.
 
The subjective measurements by listening are rubbish AFAIK. How do you subjectively cover the whole frequency spectrum? What is the reference point for the whole spectrum? And this is my POV. Need not be others.

For you, they probably are. Your question is indicative of that. But there is a parallel with measurements as well. Putting so much faith in measurements means you're making assumptions and generalizations just as well. The sad truth is it doesn't tell you how it is going to sound. Just like when people here are saying they measure first and tweak after.... do you get the part where they tweak after? Which measurements are they using then? Do you notice they skip over the aspect of how their tweaks will affect change? How do they maneuvre according to prediction ? Swinging in the dark?

What If I asked you to show me a decoupling network that sounds good on paper or simulation. Would it be complete enough to seem realistic in practice? Would it measure as per simulation? How do you correct it??

What if your measurements are telling you that you have a flat and clean noise floor, and you tell yourself that it's low enough not to be audible with a little hand waving about the capability of CD audio encoding or the realities of a 32bit dac only likely equating to 16 in practice unless you're really good at what you do you might get up to 24 but probably not.

I'll tell you the real danger is in thinking it can only be achieved a single way, and very unlikely with a diy hobbiest have either the understanding to use measurements properly or to extract meaningful information from them.... let's be honest, most professionals don't. They don't have to because they are going to sell you junk and they know it. Then they'll tell you it's the room that's to blame.

But that mistaken belief you share all but rules out any hope for a hobbiest to get anywhere. Look what the guru's do in audio anyway. They dove off the highboard head first into a dry deep end of euphonic systems because when they tried to make an accurate one it was "dry" and "analytical". To them the only way to get "music" is with painted layers of euphony which means it only sounds good playing one song and any other type of music will always sound like that same song... horrible. Not only have measurements failed them, but their ears have as well.

If you want the ultimate in lifelike realism that transcends any type of listening material then I assure you, you will not get there with measurements alone. Either approach takes serious dedication, methodical testing, and a whole lot of understanding. That all comes with experience, and plenty of second guessing. Interestingly, I've learnt that immediate and first impressions are often dead on.

Your reference is ultimately realism. In my last major upgrade to my DAW which I already generally described here, I was reducing the sick effects of high jitter according to my ears alone. Was it worth attempting to measure? No. I didn't have the equipment and had I made it a life's goal to acquire it and learn it I still would have been stuck with the compromised junk that I had and still would have had to resort to the same types of fixes that I did.

Because of an ill design which was far less than perfectly ideal, the flavor of the component itself came through in full force. I discussed my surprise with a very highly regarded digital audio designer and was told if there's any kind of noise leakage the nature of the components will show through despite it being a purely digital stage. Generally the same principles applied there as everywhere else. You're just not going to use garbage components that suffer high leakage and self noise. Do I need to measure it to now that I'm using probably the world's best component? Nope. The audio grade capacitor manufacturer took care of those oddball measurements for me and I'm more than satisfied with their efforts. Where I'm not, I figured out a way to capitalize on their advantages and compensate their weaknesses in order to fully exploit them.

I still tried half a dozen alternatives for comparison. "Baseline" simply becomes the junk you started with, and then it becomes the version you're intent on settling on which you compare everything else against.

From that, I focused purely on its ability to create a 3D image with realistic formation and very specifically the ability to actually move that focused image. The baseline for comparison then was very specific reference recordings. If it's off in any great way, it may sound like a completely different song. It is important to resist the beginner mistake of simply boosting base or some other narrow view... this comes with training and discipline. Focusing on image formation and moveability makes that rather easy. Fact is, once it is pulled together correctly, it is unmistakable. I may even use half a dozen 30 second sections of different songs, for each test.

Of course it is still a junk circuit at the end of the day in the sense that really nothing is ideal so there's always some necessary compromise. The goal is still to get the best of it. But when you get the balance correct, such that the image has indeed pulled together towards ultimate realism, then you find it's not such a compromise after all, because it does everything equally well.

Of course it is also all verified with actual test tracks. I defy you or anyone to make a system with measurements alone and have it reproduce a believable piano scale. You may think you've done well but that will break you every time. There is seriously nothing my system could play that would embarrass me in front of anyone at this point, and again, the joke is still that it's done in a way that people said quality audio could never exist.

These cries of subjectivity remain a farce. People have more in common than they think. Some are just a little more deaf to their understanding is all. People at wine tastings don't cry about subjectivity for example, and nobody chews rusted nails preferring it to a steak. Realism is realism and that's all there is to it. Let that be your baseline.

Just as well, if someone had to reproduce the mona lisa as realistically as possible, would they do it using auto cad? Maybe for part of it, but that alone would only give them a narrow representation.

Measurements are simply a human construct that we overlay on reality in order to help analyze it using narrow interpretations. Our ears do an impressive job of that already. It's more about the method than anything and I find that there is a method in common amongst most people responding here.

Also, you don't pay for failures in diy. You pay for lessons.
 
Also, you don't pay for failures in diy. You pay for lessons.

So true, I am sure Thomas Edison is nodding his head in approval from his grave :) Besides, with DIY, you get the reward & satisfaction of creating something - money can't buy this.

IMO only commercial designers & manufacturers need to worry about measurements - they must because they have to maintain the consistency to their product lines. As a DIYer I will tinker with it until it sounds good and call it a day, after all the goal is to get the sound I like. For me measurement is too much hassle, and at the end of the day if it measures good and doesn't sound right you end up tweaking it anyways.
 
I take measurements at various stages of loudspeaker design and construction. As loudspeaker is a transducer made to convert electrical energy to mechanical and acoustical energy, measuring helps in accurately capturing various parameters associated with it. I use ARTA to measure these parameters which are then used with other tools like Hornresp, Unibox etc to simulate various what-if scenarios. These tools aid in optimizing the design to suit driver. Frequency response measurements, impedance and phase plots will give pointers to tweak and optimize crossover. Programs like Room Equalizer Wizard will help in tackling room response.

Tools like these can help to modify speakers response to personal taste. IMO this is where subjectivity and objectivity comes together as how the measured data is perceived and related with the audiophile adjectives ie: boom, punch, honk, tinny, sibilance, definition, pierce, air to name a few. Having a multitude of data helps in making informed design compromises as well.

IMO subjective listening and objective measurements has to go hand in hand, as the former sets a reference point the latter helps in relating it with physical data. Over reliance to either could restrict the designers freedom.
 
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In my opinion, listening is not measurement - because it won't tell you absolute results. At the most, it will tell you whether bass is good/adequate/thin/thick/boomy/clear. But won't tell you which frequency its resonating or creating a null. You would need scientific measurement to tell you more about it. If you have a null, you have to measure it, unless you run one frequency at a time and try to listen for it.

Subjective listening is like taste. I may have 2 tsp sugar with tea and consider it normal. But someone else may find it too sweet or not sweet at all. Also, one has to acquire the taste. I know some people prefer bright systems while some prefer bass heavy. If these people do subjective listening and tweak the system - then it works fine for them but it can hardly be called reference. There is absolutely nothing wrong in it. But we can't call it absolute and deride the scientific measurements.

Coming back to OT: I have done the measurements but for my subs. It's really not that expensive (again subjective ;) ) I used a Dayton mic, calibrated by Cross-Spectrum with Room Eq wizard. Total cost is around $80. That little piece of equipment can really show the glaring gaps in your beloved setup. You may love it, but there is no denying the room response can be totally bewildering. :)
 
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