Does the woofer size matter

[reubensm]

This is a debate which I have been always involved with. Being brought up by an old-school father, the understanding is that the modern floor standers, however expensive or high end they are, are just not good enough for reproducing low frequencies if they have 4 inch, 5 inch or 6 inch woofers. My father used to always tell me that the minimum woofer size should be 8 inches (7 inch+ cones), better still if the woofer is a 10 inch one and even better still if it is a 12 inch one. He used to swear by the horn loaded 15 inch altecs which he used to hear at the cinema. Personally, I've never tried to purchase floorstanders with woofer size below 8 inches, because of this. Any thoughts on this?

 

[koushik]

Thats absolutely true. 4"/6" can never produce very low bass. They basically produce lower mid or higher lows, as you want to say. Adding more such drivers will only increase SPL but not the frequency extension. Atleast a 8 incher is must to start going real low.

 

[madbullram]

I agree with your dad. The woofer size and also circuit matters to how low the woofer can go. Between a 10 and 12, its very minimal difference during a regular listening session until and unless you are focused on finding the difference. Also, acoustics play a part in the frequencies too.

 

[sarith]

Bigger the better. I have compared 6" and 8" Philips woofers with similar cone material and 8" has better low fq. 6" sounds taut compared to 8" and has faster bass and better mid bass.

 

[Nikhil]

reubensm,

There are reasons for moving towards smaller mid woofers. Integrating a large woofer with a small tweeter is problematic - Flat frequency response, Off axis response and crossover design issues are some of the reasons. Here is a classic interview from Stereophile.com by John Atkinson and Paul Barton of PSB from several years ago.

http://www.stereophile.com/interviews/231

Take time to read through the entire article ... it will give you a very thorough explanation of modern speaker design trends from arguably one of the top minds in speaker design.

 

[john_k_antony]

Would the enclosure design matter too? I have seen that people getting super deep bass with 6.5" driver in a properly designed Transmission Line enclosures.

Well if you ask me, I am still from the old school of thought and I like the sound from a bigger woofer .

-John.

 

[ghatgepatil]

From what all I have heard, its more of enclosure design than anything else. Even quality of drivers take a back seat if it is within 90% of the very best. We all know how very expensive the last few %s could be ..

 

[arj]

while the bass is related to the eclosure size/design/topology etc (horn/bass reflex/TL ...)
in the end to feel SPL you need woofers to move air and this is dependent on the area of the woofer and its rigidity.. From a size perspective you need at least 3 x 6" to replace a 10" and 2 x8" for a 12 etc etc.
higher the rigidity of the cone, the less "agile" it is hence the speaker designers try to get that combo right to voice the speaker. I believe Most of the highend speakers still seem to use some form of paper or natural fibre.

Personally once you get used to larger drivers, its very difficult to get the same palpable feeling from smaller drivers.

Of curse Planars are a difference ball game.

 

[GeorgeO]

I agree with arj.

Again, given the fact the powered subs are now available with specs that werent available a few decades ago, and are able to perform very impressively, one can compromise a bit on mid bass drivers. Again all mids are not the same. HT type bass is generally non directional, and a sub can do what it is designed to do best.

Having said all of that your dad knew what he was talking out-just love the Altecs!

 

[alphacentury100]

The deeper you want to dig, the Bigger the driver has to be.

 

[keith_correa]

After a point the laws of physics do kick in BUT I disagree that you require large drivers for low bass. A well designed TL with 5"/6" drivers are capable of producing low bass which is more than sufficient for most types of music. There are even some 3" drivers, which, put in a well designed box, are capable of bass in the 40's. So, the enclosure plays a big role too.

As for old school folks and their beliefs, let me give you this: My Dad still believes that drinking lots of water is detrimental to health. All of us laugh at him for thinking this. He is very well read and I'm sure has read that lots of water is good for the body but does he change his line of thinking? No!!! He's entitled to his opinion but does what he think make him right just because he's "old school" or has more "experience" in life? No!!!

 

[ghatgepatil]

^ and bass quality is far superior too. It isn't loose and without the punch. In other words, tight. This bass is something like an extension of the low mids without a demarcation zone involved. That makes it far more natural and sweeter sounding.

 

[arj]

After a point the laws of physics do kick in BUT I disagree that you require large drivers for low bass. A well designed TL with 5"/6" drivers are capable of producing low bass which is more than sufficient for most types of music. There are even some 3" drivers that put in a well designed box, are capable of bass in the 40's. So, the enclosure plays a big role too.

As for old school folks and their beliefs, let me give you this: My Dad still believes that drinking lot's of water is detrimental to health. All of us laugh at him for thinking this. He is very well read and I'm sure has read that lot's of water is good for the body but does he change his line of thinking? No!!! He's entitled to his opinion but does what he think make him right just because he's "old school" or has more "experience" in life? No!!!

Apparently drinking too much water is dangerous .definition of too much can be argued though

Depth can impacted by design etc.. It is SPL , which needs air to be moved that needs surface area and for that you either need large drivers or lots of small ones

 

[ghatgepatil]

Is air movement so very important? Don't ever 'feel' the air in a concert hall or even stage performances which are mostly without amplification :indifferent14: Seriously, I am interested to know this, since planning to set up 'something' at least, which has been long overdue.

I would be targeting vocals, instrumentals, maybe a bit of Bollywood fare. Don't see the utility of feeling the air movement in here ... right?

 

[Shivam]

A large woofer can easily go to low frequencies and are easier to manufacture. A smaller woofer in comparison can also travel to similarly low frequencies but requires more effort and design changes. So with everything else remaining same, a larger woofer can go deeper than a smaller woofer.
Their plus point is also their disadvantage. Bringing the woofer to a stop after the signals have stopped is tougher with a large woofer compared to a smaller one due to inertia. So smaller woofers will have tight bass compared to a large woofer if everything is kept similar.

 

[greenhorn]

+1 to your dad. There is no replacement for displacement

 

[Rajiv]

Hi,

There is bass and there is bass.

Listening #124 | Stereophile.com

Their plus point is also their disadvantage. Bringing the woofer to a stop after the signals have stopped is tougher with a large woofer compared to a smaller one due to inertia. So smaller woofers will have tight bass compared to a large woofer if everything is kept similar.

From the article linked above.

Let the record show that, of the relatively little good bass I've heard from domestic playback systems, most has come from woofers that measure no less than 12" in diameter, usually built with very tight, low-excursion surrounds. Some of those drivers have been horn-loaded, but that wouldn't seem to be a requirement. And most were manufactured before I made my First Communion.

Regards
Rajiv

 

[arj]

Is air movement so very important? Don't ever 'feel' the air in a concert hall or even stage performances which are mostly without amplification :indifferent14: Seriously, I am interested to know this, since planning to set up 'something' at least, which has been long overdue.

I would be targeting vocals, instrumentals, maybe a bit of Bollywood fare. Don't see the utility of feeling the air movement in here ... right?

IAnyway air movent is not just the in the gut hit any sub can give you, but there level articulation along wih that tactile feeling which is part of music.

Anyway these are not " must have" but the additional like to haves. I could easy love with a nice bookshelf as well and would not trade midrange magic for moving air SPL

But when you hear a full ranger that feeling is something else !b

 

[hydrovac]

The simple fact is surface area is a big deal for moving air and achieving low frequencies. The lowest notes on a pipe organ, Imperial Grand Piano and a tuba is around 16Hz a frequency considered below the threshold of human hearing. These instruments do not create single notes at this frequency but what they do generate is full of higher frequency harmonics the harmonics giving the instrument its sound signature and those higher frequencies in combination with the low fundamental give a full visceral feel to the note. When played in a live space, any one of these instruments will produce sound you both feel and hear.

The problem with too small a surface area has to do with coupling the air in the room which at very low frequencies is not linear and as the frequency goes down, the surface area of the driver has to go up rather dramatically to get what you want delivered in the room.

So, size does matter.

 

[Nikhil]

So, size does matter.

Universal truth .... :clapping: (in more than just audio too).

I agree that the 12" driver will go down in the LF but quality and integrity is essential. Good implementation is needed. Getting a good three way is the way to go but its also very expensive. A nice sub woofer will also add some weight to the sound but integration is critical.

My opinion though is that a lot of deep bass rumbles are ultimately not real (especially in movies). For example, I have been around a few car crashes in which the sound was actually nothing near anything our movies show. There are definitely no warp speed sound waves blowing up glass windows etc aka Transformers. Same goes for the bass drum in a rock concert. A driver that goes down to 60Hz is plenty. Most natural sounds are well within the capabilities of 6.5" mid woofer.

Another problem is that sometimes too much bass will eat into your mid range robbing some of the sound. This is a matter of taste.