Help needed in finalizing Atmos speakers

[Dwaipayan]

I am looking to upgrade my current 5.1 setup to a 5.1.4. I need some help in finalizing the in ceiling atmos speakers for my setup. Below are some details regarding my setup:

Room Size: 12' W x 24.5' L
AVR: Denon AVC-X3700H (to be purchased)
Front LR: Q Acoustics 3050i [Already have these]
Center: Q Acoustics 2000Ci [Already have this]
Surrounds: Q Acoustics 3010i [Already have this]
Distance from seating row (there will be only 1 row) to front & rear atmos channels considering a 55 degree angle (lesser angles are not feasible due to distance): 4.25'

I have shortlisted 3 models for the in-ceiling speakers. My budget is maximum 20k per pair, but would like to save some money if possible.
1. Wharfedale WCM-65 [~21k/pair]
2. Polk Audio RC60i [~17k/pair]
3. JBL Arena 6IC [~12k/pair]

Question 1: How much of a difference does the adjustable tweeter (so that they can be aimed towards the listener) make?
Question 2: Which of the above 3 will be a better match overall for my QAs? What is the most popular recommendation?
Question 3: How important is it to timbre match the height channels? Is it easily observable or requires critical listening to spot the difference?

 

[spirovious]

Question 1: How much of a difference does the adjustable tweeter (so that they can be aimed towards the listener) make?
Question 2: Which of the above 3 will be a better match overall for my QAs? What is the most popular recommendation?
Question 3: How important is it to timbre match the height channels? Is it easily observable or requires critical listening to spot the diference?

Ceiling speakers may not need perfect matching as real effect may not be there all time in the movie. Secondly, Audyssey will help to match them with fronts.Adjustable tweeter may be helpful is still atmos speakers are not clearly audible.

 

[Amarendra]

I am looking to upgrade my current 5.1 setup to a 5.1.4. I need some help in finalizing the in ceiling atmos speakers for my setup. Below are some details regarding my setup:

Room Size: 12' W x 24.5' L
AVR: Denon AVC-X3700H (to be purchased)
Front LR: Q Acoustics 3050i [Already have these]
Center: Q Acoustics 2000Ci [Already have this]
Surrounds: Q Acoustics 3010i [Already have this]
Distance from seating row (there will be only 1 row) to front & rear atmos channels considering a 55 degree angle (lesser angles are not feasible due to distance): 4.25'

I have shortlisted 3 models for the in-ceiling speakers. My budget is maximum 20k per pair, but would like to save some money if possible.
1. Wharfedale WCM-65 [~21k/pair]
2. Polk Audio RC60i [~17k/pair]
3. JBL Arena 6IC [~12k/pair]

Question 1: How much of a difference does the adjustable tweeter (so that they can be aimed towards the listener) make?
Question 2: Which of the above 3 will be a better match overall for my QAs? What is the most popular recommendation?
Question 3: How important is it to timbre match the height channels? Is it easily observable or requires critical listening to spot the difference?

Dont bother about matching or tweeter positioning etc for speakers which are meant for atmosphere. Get the cheapest possible ceiling speakers of a reputed brand. I use Taga speakers for Atmos whereas the rest of the set up is wharfedale.

 

[vinothmanick]

Go for polk RC60i it has aimable tweeter and also if ur trying to save some money u can go with JBL but JBL looks little bit deep than POLK kindly check the depth of the speaker and false celing board to celing height usually it ll be 6inch gap but in some cases it ll be less depends upon the false celing guy u dont want a ceiling speaker that sits out of the ceiling.

Yes it makes a slight difference with the tweeter position not a big deal if you dont have keen ears

 

[Dwaipayan]

Thanks everyone for your inputs. Really appreciate it!

Go for polk RC60i it has aimable tweeter and also if ur trying to save some money u can go with JBL but JBL looks little bit deep than POLK kindly check the depth of the speaker and false celing board to celing height usually it ll be 6inch gap but in some cases it ll be less depends upon the false celing guy u dont want a ceiling speaker that sits out of the ceiling.

Yes it makes a slight difference with the tweeter position not a big deal if you dont have keen ears

Ceiling is yet to be installed, so I believe I can adjust the height as per my choice. Our original ceiling height is 11.5' and I am planning to go for a 1.5' gap if technically feasible.

However, I believe I will go with the RC60is as ProFX Kolkata said they can get a little more discount on the MRP once I finalize the deal. Waiting on them to confirm AVR stock.

 

[k-pad]

Distance from seating row (there will be only 1 row) to front & rear atmos channels considering a 55 degree angle (lesser angles are not feasible due to distance): 4.25'

Am surprised Dolby standards are not working out for you! In your room, you should be able to do a proper 45 degree and angle the ceiling speakers straight down.

I have shortlisted 3 models for the in-ceiling speakers. My budget is maximum 20k per pair, but would like to save some money if possible.
1. Wharfedale WCM-65 [~21k/pair]
2. Polk Audio RC60i [~17k/pair]
3. JBL Arena 6IC [~12k/pair]

All three work great for your requirement. I'd say just go for the JBLs... (cheapest).

Question 1: How much of a difference does the adjustable tweeter (so that they can be aimed towards the listener) make?

It does make a (mild) difference in case you can't do the 30-55 or 125-150 sweep.
You can buy a few degrees of high frequencies with a pivoting tweeter.

Question 2: Which of the above 3 will be a better match overall for my QAs? What is the most popular recommendation?

Don't ask me why. All I'll say is because of your very neutral QA speakers, I'd say the JBLs again work best here also.

Question 3: How important is it to timbre match the height channels? Is it easily observable or requires critical listening to spot the difference?

Short answer: 1. It kind of is not. 2. Timbre matching is not possible unless the engineering dept of a same company works on it. As in, it is impossible for us to figure.

Long answer: 1. Just pick the JBLs.... 2. Ask QA. Write to them. Tell them you have an all-QA system so far, and ask what they would recommend within price, ask for pricing of their in-ceiling line...
You never know, it might fit your budget...

All said, QA ceilings first, JBLs next, if not everything fits...

 

[rainbowsong2000]

Please check the price of RC80i. I am using it for the past 2 years its fantastic. Nowadays lot of low frequency notes are getting added in top channels and listening those spaceship heaviness or some heavy thuds on top etc in movies are really nice. So my option would be Polk RC80i (I bought for 18k something in 2019)

I have shortlisted 3 models for the in-ceiling speakers. My budget is maximum 20k per pair, but would like to save some money if possible.
1. Wharfedale WCM-65 [~21k/pair]
2. Polk Audio RC60i [~17k/pair]
3. JBL Arena 6IC [~12k/pair]

Question 1: How much of a difference does the adjustable tweeter (so that they can be aimed towards the listener) make?

I am using 2 pairs but didnt find any difference, infact 2 months back i noticed that one of the tweeter was facing somewhere else than Listening position but didnt feel any thing...

Question 2: Which of the above 3 will be a better match overall for my QAs? What is the most popular recommendation?

Based on my usage POLK RC80i (Try bargain for 20k)

Question 3: How important is it to timbre match the height channels? Is it easily observable or requires critical listening to spot the difference?

Better get both the ceiling pairs from same model.

And finally I bought from here

Ceiling Speakers - The Home Cinema | Home Theatre Bangalore | Speakers

www.thehomecinema.in

Online price of RC60i is 17 K and RC80i is 22k, you can negotiate further.

 

[vinothmanick]

Thanks everyone for your inputs. Really appreciate it!


Ceiling is yet to be installed, so I believe I can adjust the height as per my choice. Our original ceiling height is 11.5' and I am planning to go for a 1.5' gap if technically feasible.

However, I believe I will go with the RC60is as ProFX Kolkata said they can get a little more discount on the MRP once I finalize the deal. Waiting on them to confirm AVR stock.

Reduce the height gap as much as u can otherwise u may feel vibration in ceiling when u introduce a powerful sub

6-8inch gap is nominal, if u are going with 1.5feet make sure to give more support during false ceiling installation..its not about load bearing its for vibration reduction

 

[ankitbhargava]

Front heights and Top Middles would ensure a good content engagement and envelopment.
Polk RC60i or RC80i for top middle would be good, for front height you may even go for bookshelves mounted on wall and angled correctly to MLP

 

[Dwaipayan]

6-8inch gap is nominal, if u are going with 1.5feet make

I have a beam ~10" deep (top down) which i am planning to cover. This would require at least 1' gap on top.

The ceiling installer will make 18" x 18" squares using GI channels on which gyproc boards will be attached. Do you suggest that these gaps be reduced further to avoid vibrations? I am also planning to screw in a 6mm ply for each of these in-ceiling speaker positions from the top of the channel for better structural support. That way, the speaker clips will engage on the ply and not the gypsum board. Will that help in anyway?

Lastly, I have some 2" Rockwool slabs (2' x 4') lying around that I can place above the ceiling if it helps reduce vibrations. However I don't have enough to fill the entire ceiling, but can focus on the areas where the in-ceiling speakers will go.

The sub I'm using is Wharfedale PowerCube 12+. It has a downfiring design and is rated at 150 watts RMS.

 

[Dwaipayan]

Better get both the ceiling pairs from same model.

I agree with you on this.

And finally I bought from here

Thanks for the link!

 

[Dwaipayan]

Am surprised Dolby standards are not working out for you! In your room, you should be able to do a proper 45 degree and angle the ceiling speakers straight down.

Isn't 55 degree also within the acceptable range?

The reason I most likely cannot do 45 degrees is because that will require me to place the speakers 6' to 6.5' from the listening position both towards the front and the rear side of the seating row (~13' from front wall). This may conflict with the position of the ceiling lights or fans that will be placed there. If that doesn't happen, I'll be happy to move the speakers exactly at 45 degrees.

The way I calculated the distance was based on the formula x = h/tan(angle), where h = the distance from my head to the ceiling.

 

[Dwaipayan]

Am surprised Dolby standards are not working out for you! In your room, you should be able to do a proper 45 degree and angle the ceiling speakers straight down.


All three work great for your requirement. I'd say just go for the JBLs... (cheapest).

It does make a (mild) difference in case you can't do the 30-55 or 125-150 sweep.
You can buy a few degrees of high frequencies with a pivoting tweeter.

Don't ask me why. All I'll say is because of your very neutral QA speakers, I'd say the JBLs again work best here also.

Short answer: 1. It kind of is not. 2. Timbre matching is not possible unless the engineering dept of a same company works on it. As in, it is impossible for us to figure.

Long answer: 1. Just pick the JBLs.... 2. Ask QA. Write to them. Tell them you have an all-QA system so far, and ask what they would recommend within price, ask for pricing of their in-ceiling line...
You never know, it might fit your budget...

All said, QA ceilings first, JBLs next, if not everything fits...

QA speakers were my first choice but considering their cost, I decided look for cheaper options

 

[Dwaipayan]

Front heights and Top Middles would ensure a good content engagement and envelopment.
Polk RC60i or RC80i for top middle would be good, for front height you may even go for bookshelves mounted on wall and angled correctly to MLP

I'm planning to go with the layout as per page 29 of the Atmos setup guide (5.1.4 overhead speakers), which I may expand to 7.1.4 (page 36) in future.

I'm not sure what you mean by front heights. Are you talking about the in-ceilings in front of the listening position or the actual front height channels mounted on the front wall above the LR channels?

If I understood correctly, top middle is applicable only if we have 6 Atmos speakers, correct? Are you saying that instead of the layout I've proposed above, that I should use front heights and one in-ceiling pair directly on top of the listening position? Will that sound better in terms of positioning?

Sorry for so many questions, but this topic seems quite confusing to me.

 

[vinothmanick]

I have a beam ~10" deep (top down) which i am planning to cover. This would require at least 1' gap on top.

The ceiling installer will make 18" x 18" squares using GI channels on which gyproc boards will be attached. Do you suggest that these gaps be reduced further to avoid vibrations? I am also planning to screw in a 6mm ply for each of these in-ceiling speaker positions from the top of the channel for better structural support. That way, the speaker clips will engage on the ply and not the gypsum board. Will that help in anyway?

Lastly, I have some 2" Rockwool slabs (2' x 4') lying around that I can place above the ceiling if it helps reduce vibrations. However I don't have enough to fill the entire ceiling, but can focus on the areas where the in-ceiling speakers will go.

The sub I'm using is Wharfedale PowerCube 12+. It has a downfiring design and is rated at 150 watts RMS.

Hi,
Well and Good
You Going Extra mile with Rockwool ..It will cover the rest.
More than enough.

 

[ankitbhargava]

I'm planning to go with the layout as per page 29 of the Atmos setup guide (5.1.4 overhead speakers), which I may expand to 7.1.4 (page 36) in future.

I'm not sure what you mean by front heights. Are you talking about the in-ceilings in front of the listening position or the actual front height channels mounted on the front wall above the LR channels?

If I understood correctly, top middle is applicable only if we have 6 Atmos speakers, correct? Are you saying that instead of the layout I've proposed above, that I should use front heights and one in-ceiling pair directly on top of the listening position? Will that sound better in terms of positioning?

Sorry for so many questions, but this topic seems quite confusing to me.

Yes exactly, I have experimented a lot between various layouts and the combination and Front heights (actually mounted on the wall above fronts) and Top Middle (not necessarily directly on top of MLP) gives the best result as far as achieving good Atmos envelopment and sensible engagement is concerned. This would be way crucial than selection of the speakers itself.

Even with your AVR upscaling other formats to Atmos, this layout would probably give best result.
Top Middle + Front Height combination should be an option while you select your speaker layout in the AVR.

 

[Dwaipayan]

That is indeed interesting. It will also be easier due to the shorter cable runs.

Couple of follow up questions:

1. What would be the recommended position for the in-ceilings with respect to the listening position in this case? Angle/distance from the listening row would be helpful.

2. Although not directly related to Atmos, when expanding to 7.1.4, what would you recommend for the rear channel heights? Bed level or same as front heights?

 

[ankitbhargava]

That is indeed interesting. It will also be easier due to the shorter cable runs.

Couple of follow up questions:

1. What would be the recommended position for the in-ceilings with respect to the listening position in this case? Angle/distance from the listening row would be helpful.

2. Although not directly related to Atmos, when expanding to 7.1.4, what would you recommend for the rear channel heights? Bed level or same as front heights?

1. I have my Top Middles about 2 feet ahead of MLP and tweeter angled towards MLP (they are about 10 feet from the from heights)
2. I use Bi-Poles for surround rear, I have them about 1 and half feet higher than MLP


This gives me a good result

 

[Dwaipayan]

Just found an interesting video on YouTube. I'm sure this has been shared somewhere else in this forum, but still feel it is relevant to this thread w.r.t speaker positions.

 

[Dwaipayan]

So I went ahead and purchased one pair of RC60i and received them today. However, when I connected them to my PM5005 for testing (they are not yet installed), I find that they sound very thin and hollow. Is that because there is no cabinet?

How much can I expect the sound to improve when installed in-ceiling? Do I need to get a cabinet made for them before installing in ceiling? Can anyone share some insight on this?