How to achieve a warm sound from an otherwise transparent setup?

[AmaravatiListener]

Hey,

So basically I want to understand from FMs how you can achieve a warm sound from a setup that is otherwise transparent:

In a hypothetical scenario where we have Accurate/Transparent Speakers and Source - to achieve a warm and/or tube sound should we introduce

1. Tube Preamp + Transparent Solid State Power Amp; or

2. Integrated Tube Amp; or

3. Tube Preamp + Tube Power Amp; or

4. Solid State/ Digital Preamp + Tube Power Amp

Does the preamp contribute more to the "tube sound" or does the power amp.

Or do only a tube pre and power amp together manage to do this?

I have looked all over the internet for an answer to these questions - but I couldn't find anything conclusive.

I would be very grateful for any advice or comments on this! especially from the tube guru @viren bakhshi

 

[viren bakhshi]

Hey,

Your basic hypothesis is off.

What do the words "warm" and "accurate" mean to you? Are they in regards to music? If they are, and live music sounds warm in a concert hall, is it not more accurately reproduced if it sounds warm at home too. There is no conflict or dichotomy here.

The equipment is just the means to that end. Whatever suits your ears.

Regards,
Viren

 

[Vinod.R]

Warm sound can also be called a sound different to what the musician intended.
I would rather phrase the question as "How can one achieve sound which is as close as to music as the musician intended?".
The most difficult to achieve as most would concur.

 

[prem]

Don’t think of sound as warm, neutral, big soundstage, tight bass, silky treble, great imaging, etc. Think of it as tone, timbre, dynamics, presence

 

[Beast_of_burden]

This one is a can of worms. Using audio jargon is a minefield. But it appears you are

Does the preamp contribute more to the "tube sound" or does the power amp.

Or do only a tube pre and power amp together manage to do this?

I have looked all over the internet for an answer to these questions - but I couldn't find anything conclusive.

I would be very grateful for any advice or comments on this! especially from the tube guru @viren bakhshi

I will limit myself to the questions above, it appears you are trying to add some "tube warmth" to your system. Tubes can run the gamut from sounding lean to sharp to dull to mushy and totally distorted. Worse there is not much consistency between the various makes for the same type of tube. The tube rectifier can also make a difference. But tubes can surprise and amaze and can sound like magic. A good push pull can trounce a poorly implemented SET and so on. A good SET will trounce a PP, but I did have a SEP which shrieked so much my ears were ringing. But if you are looking for big power, scale and macro dynamics don't bother with tubes - nothing wrong with solid state. I really like my brother's dreadnaught Macintosh. That's what I would call a warm sound but never dull. I would say quality solid state from Luxman, Accuphase and even the underrated Denon PMA 1600 and PMA 2500 sound warm in my book.

If I were setting out to experiment with tubes, I would start with a power amp. A tube integrated makes sense in my book. Adding a quality tube pre- amp to a poor SS amp is a band aid, you will never be happy with the results in my opinion.

Look at the speakers too, some speakers have a tipped up treble and a wonky impedance curve. Everyone mentions the room as a kind of disclaimer but it can be a factor if there is a lot of glass around the speakers.

Conclusion: Tubes are no magic bullet.

 

[AmaravatiListener]

Hey,

Your basic hypothesis is off.

What do the words "warm" and "accurate" mean to you? Are they in regards to music? If they are, and live music sounds warm in a concert hall, is it not more accurately reproduced if it sounds warm at home too. There is no conflict or dichotomy here.

The equipment is just the means to that end. Whatever suits your ears.

Regards,
Viren

Apologies! My bad, I should have explained myself better and framed the question differently.

When I spoke about warmth/"tube sound" (I know that i am stereotyping the sound of all tubes, but please bear with me) - I meant - sound where the treble is smooth (rolled off?) - less fatiguing.

It is my understanding that tube amplifiers and especially SETs add something (harmonic distortion?) to the recording to make it as such.

So going back to my hypothetical - provided we have a Speaker and Source which are transparent and reveal the recording as is - how do we introduce the "tube sound" to the system output? Can we achieve this the most by introducing a pre or power amplifier? or both?

I guess I don't want to stay true to the original recording.

Sorry again for not being more clear!

Thanks!

Don’t think of sound as warm, neutral, big soundstage, tight bass, silky treble, great imaging, etc. Think of it as tone, timbre, dynamics, presence

Ahh, fair

This one is a can of worms. Using audio jargon is a minefield. But it appears you are


I will limit myself to the questions above, it appears you are trying to add some "tube warmth" to your system. Tubes can run the gamut from sounding lean to sharp to dull to mushy and totally distorted. Worse there is not much consistency between the various makes for the same type of tube. The tube rectifier can also make a difference. But tubes can surprise and amaze and can sound like magic. A good push pull can trounce a poorly implemented SET and so on. A good SET will trounce a PP, but I did have a SEP which shrieked so much my ears were ringing. But if you are looking for big power, scale and macro dynamics don't bother with tubes - nothing wrong with solid state. I really like my brother's dreadnaught Macintosh. That's what I would call a warm sound but never dull. I would say quality solid state from Luxman, Accuphase and even the underrated Denon PMA 1600 and PMA 2500 sound warm in my book.

If I were setting out to experiment with tubes, I would start with a power amp. A tube integrated makes sense in my book. Adding a quality tube pre- amp to a poor SS amp is a band aid, you will never be happy with the results in my opinion.

Look at the speakers too, some speakers have a tipped up treble and a wonky impedance curve. Everyone mentions the room as a kind of disclaimer but it can be a factor if there is a lot of glass around the speakers.

Conclusion: Tubes are no magic bullet.

Thank you for your reply - this really helps.

But yes I was talking about this "tube magic/warmth" that you refer to.

I understand that a quality tube with a poor ss amp is a band aid. But what about a quality pre-amp to a quality (transparent to source) SS amp? Will it add the "tube magic" to the sound? or will a quality tube-power amp contribute more to the "tube magic" as opposed to a tube pre?

I understand that the speakers and the room will have a bearing - but I just want to understand in theory what introduces the "tube warmth" that is widely spoken about.

 

[Beast_of_burden]

Ahh, fair



Thank you for your reply - this really helps.

But yes I was talking about this "tube magic/warmth" that you refer to.

I understand that a quality tube with a poor ss amp is a band aid. But what about a quality pre-amp to a quality (transparent to source) SS amp? Will it add the "tube magic" to the sound? or will a quality tube-power amp contribute more to the "tube magic" as opposed to a tube pre?

Let's just say Class A SS amps have their own magic. The big advantage is that there is a wide variety of speakers that can go with these amps. Take the inefficient Spendor, Harbeth or Tannoy and pair with a Luxman, Accuphase, First watt, Sugden and you will have that warm sound that we all crave.

With a SET, it is different. Finding appropriate speakers is not funny. 300B amps are frightfully expensive. 2a3 amps are cheaper(not cheap) but good for 3 watts. There are other more expensive options that also do double duty as expensive room heaters. Tube friendly speaker designs ideally should have a benign impedance curve, not always the case. I am personally allergic to single driver designs. You can get away with SET if you do mostly nearfield and have reasonable sized room with reasonably sensitive speakers that have a benign impedance curve. If you are willing to live with these compromises, SET is where it is at. I have a decent and affordable PP amp now, but it doesn't quite have the magic. But on a good day it too can surprise with the right music.

If you had a quality SS amp, it doesn't matter - a quality tube or SS pre amp will work equally well. If you really want the tube magic, it would have to be a tube power amplifier.

 

[Deleted member 15865]

Warmth, thickness, sweetness - are some of the adjectives used to describe tube sound. Let me add one more of mine. To me SS vs Tube is like Diamond vs Pearl - in terms of the feel of the sound. Diamond has brilliance, Pearl has lustre. The choice is person-specific.

But that doesn’t answer your question, I know. I use a tube pre with SS power and find it an affordable cocktail in my budget. If I go for tube power, I’d have to go for high sensitivity speakers that don’t come cheap. What’d I ideally like? Of course tube separates (right from DAC to power) with 12 inch drivers. If you like the tube sound over SS (auditioning is the only way to know) and can afford it, go all out.

I don’t see why anyone would combine SS pre with tube power. Besides the technical challenges around impedance matching which I don’t understand a bit, that’d be a much costlier way to achieve, well... confusion!

 

[AmaravatiListener]

Warmth, thickness, sweetness - are some of the adjectives used to describe tube sound. Let me add one more of mine. To me SS vs Tube is like Diamond vs Pearl - in terms of the feel of the sound. Diamond has brilliance, Pearl has lustre. The choice is person-specific.

But that doesn’t answer your question, I know. I use a tube pre with SS power and find it an affordable cocktail in my budget. If I go for tube power, I’d have to go for high sensitivity speakers that don’t come cheap. What’d I ideally like? Of course tube separates (right from DAC to power) with 12 inch drivers. If you like the tube sound over SS (auditioning is the only way to know) and can afford it, go all out.

I don’t see why anyone would combine SS pre with tube power. Besides the technical challenges around impedance matching which I don’t understand a bit, that’d be a much costlier way to achieve, well... confusion!

Just to add to your point about brilliance v. lustre and the choice being person specific - I believe the choice will also depend on what music one is listening to. Same person might prefer a tube sound for certain genres and a typical SS sound for others.

I am glad that you use a tube-pre with SS power - I'm going to have to pick your brain a lot on this. That is my ideal setup. Like you said it is an affordable and flexible solution. You get the tube sound with low sensitivity speakers AND you have the flexibility to lose the tube sound when you want to. The only concern I have is - would just a tube pre provide that lustre you speak of. I understand that you would prefer an all tube set up. So i suppose the answer is somewhere in the middle and it provides just a little bit of that lustre. I would love to hear more on this from you.

Its interesting that @Beast_of_burden thinks that a better way to achieve the tube sound is to go with a tube power? May I ask you to elaborate on why you think this is the case?

 

[Beast_of_burden]

Its interesting that @Beast_of_burden thinks that a better way to achieve the tube sound is to go with a tube power? May I ask you to elaborate on why you think this is the case?

I think 99% of what I hear is the interaction of the power amp with the speaker. As they say this is where the rubber hits the road. Sure, you need decent cables, interconnects, source, preamplifier, positioning, etc but it's the power amp that makes the speakers sing.

It's attractive to think you can get really good sound from middling solid state by adding a tube pre, but doesn't work that way. It's a band aid, a false choice. If you want good sound, you have to start with a good SS or tube amp. Good SS is expensive, perhaps more expensive than tubes, certainly less fiddly. By all means add a tube pre of commensurate quality to a quality SS amplifier.

Perhaps not what you want to hear, but that's what I think.

 

[drkrack]

Hey,

So basically I want to understand from FMs how you can achieve a warm sound from a setup that is otherwise transparent:

In a hypothetical scenario where we have Accurate/Transparent Speakers and Source - to achieve a warm and/or tube sound should we introduce

1. Tube Preamp + Transparent Solid State Power Amp; or

2. Integrated Tube Amp; or

3. Tube Preamp + Tube Power Amp; or

4. Solid State/ Digital Preamp + Tube Power Amp

Does the preamp contribute more to the "tube sound" or does the power amp.

Or do only a tube pre and power amp together manage to do this?

I have looked all over the internet for an answer to these questions - but I couldn't find anything conclusive.

I would be very grateful for any advice or comments on this! especially from the tube guru @viren bakhshi

Achieving transparency is one of the difficult propositions in an audiophile world. Unavoidably, Each device comes with its own coloration. Why Would you change the system which has achieved that level of transparency? If system is truly transparent, Being selective with source file or Changing the Source to a device with intended signature should be enough. If you don't want to change any of the devices, answer from my personal experiences is Experiment with different Cables (YMMV). Power Cables usually change the SQ by a huge margin.

I'm using a tube preamp and SS power amp, which gives me the SQ I'm looking for, but I don't see why Digital Preamp With EQ & Room Correction mated to High quality Tube power amplifier should be any inferior. In fact SS/digital preamp would give you more customization options, because in my experience preamp dictates the SQ signature more than power amp. Good quality high powered tube power amps are quite pricey which makes the other combination more attractive. Many a times it all depends on the device which is more colored than others.

 

[AmaravatiListener]

I think 99% of what I hear is the interaction of the power amp with the speaker. As they say this is where the rubber hits the road. Sure, you need decent cables, interconnects, source, preamplifier, positioning, etc but it's the power amp that makes the speakers sing.

It's attractive to think you can get really good sound from middling solid state by adding a tube pre, but doesn't work that way. It's a band aid, a false choice. If you want good sound, you have to start with a good SS or tube amp. Good SS is expensive, perhaps more expensive than tubes, certainly less fiddly. By all means add a tube pre of commensurate quality to a quality SS amplifier.

Perhaps not what you want to hear, but that's what I think.

Fair enough.

Yeah it is not what I wanted to hear - but maybe its what I needed to hear! Lest I go and waste a bucket load of money on something I wont be happy with.

Achieving transparency is one of the difficult propositions in an audiophile world. Unavoidably, Each device comes with its own coloration. Why Would you change the system which has achieved that level of transparency? If system is truly transparent, Being selective with source file or Changing the Source to a device with intended signature should be enough. If you don't want to change any of the devices, answer from my personal experiences is Experiment with different Cables (YMMV). Power Cables usually change the SQ by a huge margin.

I'm using a tube preamp and SS power amp, which gives me the SQ I'm looking for, but I don't see why Digital Preamp With EQ & Room Correction mated to High quality Tube power amplifier should be any inferior. In fact SS/digital preamp would give you more customization options, because in my experience preamp dictates the SQ signature more than power amp. Good quality high powered tube power amps are quite pricey which makes the other combination more attractive. Many a times it all depends on the device which is more colored than others.

To answer your question it is to make certain recordings (think badly recorded music, streaming off youtube spotify etc.) more listenable and because with some records I prefer the "tube sound" which is much more enjoyable than the transparent reproduction of the recording.

Is there a way to achieve this touted "tube magic" by using the digital EQ? If yes, how does one go about it?

I see that there is a difference in opinion between @drkrack and @Beast_of_burden .

Sorry I dont mean to face the two of you off but I'm getting more confused

 

[Deleted member 15865]

The only concern I have is - would just a tube pre provide that lustre you speak of. I understand that you would prefer an all tube set up. So i suppose the answer is somewhere in the middle and it provides just a little bit of that lustre. I would love to hear more on this from you.

You guessed right. When I compare my sound (with tube pre) with what I heard at an FM’s (tube pre and power), I see its somewhere mid of the road. But there’s a day & night difference between my own hybrid and pure SS configurations. For my money, that’s a handsome payback.

Sorry I dont mean to face the two of you off but I'm getting more confused

I’ve read/heard it multiple times that if you want to improve (in your case target a specific) SQ, work closer to the source end of the electronic chain. No wonder vinyl has so many takers despite all its inconvenience.

And yeah, I like how you are skilfully managing this discussion thread.

 

[MaSh]

The simplest thing you can try is trying out different cables. They will not alter the true signature of the overall system, however I treat them as a topping on an ice-cream sundae. See if you can reach out to local fms and have a cable rotation.

MaSh

 

[AmaravatiListener]

You guessed right. When I compare my sound (with tube pre) with what I heard at an FM’s (tube pre and power), I see its somewhere mid of the road. But there’s a day & night difference between my own hybrid and pure SS configurations. For my money, that’s a handsome payback.




I’ve read/heard it multiple times that if you want to improve (in your case target a specific) SQ, work closer to the source end of the electronic chain. No wonder vinyl has so many takers despite all its inconvenience.

And yeah, I like how you are skilfully managing this discussion thread.

Ahh that is good enough for me! May I ask what pre and power amplifiers you use in your hybrid system? and the speakers?

Haha thanks! - occupational hazard - I'm a litigation lawyer

 

[Deleted member 15865]

Ahh that is good enough for me! May I ask what pre and power amplifiers you use in your hybrid system? and the speakers?

Lyrita DHT and Audiolab 8200A with Castle Knight 2 speakers.

I'm a litigation lawyer

Isn’t that tautological?

 

[Beast_of_burden]

Ahh that is good enough for me! May I ask what pre and power amplifiers you use in your hybrid system? and the speakers?

Haha thanks! - occupational hazard - I'm a litigation lawyer

Really, there is no harm in trying out a tube pre assuming you like your current setup and are looking to add a little flavour. If you get lucky the tube pre-amp is transparent and free of coloration. Feel free. Part of this hobby is listening to different systems and figuring out what the fuss is all about. Each one of us has a different story to tell, I was expressing my perspective.

 

[AmaravatiListener]

Isn’t that tautological?

Well there are lawyers who purely work on transactions (M&A, Banking, Regulatory Compliance) - lawyers who work on disputes are a subset.

Really, there is no harm in trying out a tube pre assuming you like your current setup and are looking to add a little flavour. If you get lucky the tube amp is transparent and free of coloration. Feel free. Part of this hobby is listening to different systems and figuring out what the fuss is all about. Each one of us has a different story to tell, I was expressing my perspective.

Absolutely, I could start of with a tube pre and see where that takes me!

Thank you for sharing your experience! if it doesnt work for me, atleast I'll know where I went wrong thanks to you

 

[viren bakhshi]

I think we are all talking about how to build a system that satisfies us. It has to be stressed that we hear music through a system - all components contribute. Looking at components, one at a time, will lead you in circles.

To achieve that system, you have to have a target in mind. What is the sound you want?

This is where opinions diverge. If you think in general terms - oh, a nice, warm, transparent, enjoyable sound - you will get as many opinions as there are people giving it. That's because music is a subjective listening experience - everyone has preferences.

If your target is defined better, you have a good chance of getting there. What could be better than the sound of real musicians playing for you. Attend a few concerts - listen to the human voice, listen to the texture of instruments. Feel the energy of live music making. That's what you need to emulate at home.

In system building, all components are equally important. But, there is an hierarchy - from the source down. If the music is not recovered well, nothing down the line can improve it.

It's only your ears that have to be satisfied - you have to live with that system.

Viren

 

[shaan]

The signature of a system consisting of a tube preamp driving a solid state amp is markedly and immediately noticeably different from one with a tube amp in nearly all musical respects, except the SS may clip hard and the tube preamp would emulate a soft clip on it, depending on the design. But we are not talking about overdriven music - that doesn't count as hi-fi, let alone high-end.

What then, do people talk about, when they talk about tube sound? While it has been established by top experts on the subject, that in order to get tube sound one must use a tube amp, it seems the tube preamp plus random solid state amp combination is now being hard pushed in the audiophile field, accompanied by claims of the combo having that expensive tube sound for a fraction's fraction of the price.

I am sorry, but it just doesn't have that.
I mean the output transformer.