How to buy a vintage turntable

reubensm

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All, thought it was high time we had one single shelf were all about what goes into purchasing a vintage turntable, can be stored. This could be an easy guide for all our forum members and googlers who are interested in buying used vintage turntables. Please contribute freely with your comments, experiences and lessons learnt. Given that a lot of us out there are yet to take the plunge but are on the verge of doing so, and also lot of us out there are new to this lovely medium, I am sure such a knowledge base would be quite helpful.
 
To start with, I am posting the very first point that all should remember.

A lot of times, one would find vintage turntables at different price points. A lot of the price points are referenced using online resources like eBay, Audiogon, etc. A lot also has to do with the reviews written about the model in contention, over the internet. The more a turntable is found to be used in an audiophile project, the more valuable its perceived to be and higher the price.

Well, in my opinion and from experience, the above is absolute "Rubbish"!!

A vintage turntable is not valued based on its rarity, its popularity or its reviews. A vintage turntable is valued based on its condition. Condition includes the following (not exhaustive and not in order):

1) Originality vs Modded
2) Cosmetics, plinth condition, tonearm clip, dustcover
3) Interconnects and ground terminal
4) Signs of wear and tear
5) Original parts, headshell, tonearm and related components, platter, turntable mat, motor, idler (for idler turntables), belt (for belt drive turntables), etc
6) Quality of cartridge and condition of stylus (having the best cartridge is the world given away with the TT, but with a broken stylus is worthless, a new stylus costs almost as much as the new cartridge itself)
7) Operating voltage (and pulley for idlers)
8) Functionality, absolutely everything should be working as intended
9) Ownership history
10) Service history
 
Would you buy a car that does not run? No, right?

Similarly, never buy a Turntable that does not run (unless you have the confidence to fix it). Fixing a turntable requires experienced hands and these hands are not easy to find, these days.

Never buy based on textual information and online photographs. Try your best to listen to it before buying. This is unless you have full faith in the seller's ability and persona. Turntables can also be like the bike that Amol Palekar bought in Choti Si Baat. They can be polished up to look good and they may run on inspection, but they can fail later. So when you audition, listen to at-least 4 LPs at a stretch.
 
Would you buy a car that does not run? No, right?

Similarly, never buy a Turntable that does not run (unless you have the confidence to fix it). Fixing a turntable requires experienced hands and these hands are not easy to find, these days.

Never buy based on textual information and online photographs. Try your best to listen to it before buying. This is unless you have full faith in the seller's ability and persona. Turntables can also be like the bike that Amol Palekar bought in Choti Si Baat. They can be polished up to look good and they may run on inspection, but they can fail later. So when you audition, listen to at-least 4 LPs at a stretch.

Rueben,
Since you mentioned about cars and bikes, when you buy a second hand car and take it to a work shop, the first thing they do is to change the Engine oil. Gear oil etc even if the seller informs that the car is serviced. Why do they do that? They know that it needs the oil change to ensure smooth functioning and cannot depend on seller's assurance. So, my advice to anyone who buys a second hand Turntable, however good it looks or performs, will have to be taken to a knowledgeable technician to ensure that all moving parts like main bearing, ball bearings in tone arms and other moving parts like tone arm return assembly joints are lubes with the correct lubrication oil or grease for the Turntable to perform smoothly for future.
 
Vintage Gerrads for sale, Kabariwala wanted Rs.1400/- each, was told by a senior HFM it is worth junk if it could not be repaired. Do not get fooled into buying junk.
 
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Fixing a turntable requires experienced hands and these hands are not easy to find, these days.

You nailed it Reuben!

Especially for someone starting NEW into this hobby with absolutely zero experience of using a turntable himself on his own, it is EXTREMELY important that it should be in fully working condition and simply PLUG and PLAY! Without needing any fixing/maintenance activity.

This could really look like a haunting task and look like an impossible task without help of experts.
Getting expert hands to help us first fix the TT to get it into playable condition is rather rare these days!

Some of us are extremely lucky to have experts around us who have a great heart to go out of their way and sacrifice their family time to help someone start out :) That is why I have so much respect for our music community :)

But, my advice would be if you are just starting out just get some TT that is already been used actively and would simply change "home" :)

Vinyl is such a "mesmerizing" and "romantic" hobby that once we take the first step and spin the first record there is no other experience like it.

Cheers and a nice thread and cheers to our wonderful Vinyl community! :)
Long live Vinyl!
 
To start with, I am posting the very first point that all should remember.

A lot of times, one would find vintage turntables at different price points. A lot of the price points are referenced using online resources like eBay, Audiogon, etc. A lot also has to do with the reviews written about the model in contention, over the internet. The more a turntable is found to be used in an audiophile project, the more valuable its perceived to be and higher the price.

Well, in my opinion and from experience, the above is absolute "Rubbish"!!

A vintage turntable is not valued based on its rarity, its popularity or its reviews. A vintage turntable is valued based on its condition. Condition includes the following (not exhaustive and not in order):

1) Originality vs Modded
2) Cosmetics, plinth condition, tonearm clip, dustcover
3) Interconnects and ground terminal
4) Signs of wear and tear
5) Original parts, headshell, tonearm and related components, platter, turntable mat, motor, idler (for idler turntables), belt (for belt drive turntables), etc
6) Quality of cartridge and condition of stylus (having the best cartridge is the world given away with the TT, but with a broken stylus is worthless, a new stylus costs almost as much as the new cartridge itself)
7) Operating voltage (and pulley for idlers)
8) Functionality, absolutely everything should be working as intended
9) Ownership history
10) Service history


Sellers perspective

Very ideal - how much applicable in real life?

- Seller has limited time to demo ,and even lesser for low value items.
- When I request to do your research , very few does and they expect a seller to know all tech aspects
- If buyer comes with attitude and taking a lot of time for demo ... and you feel he is doing "timepass" , politely cloose the demo and let the sel go . Can sell the items later
My feeling is for 2 totally unknown persons seling interaction is generally between 1 hour to max max 3 hours in Mumbai - how come all your points wil be covered ?
 
Great thread Reuben!

Currently, there is a huge spike in interest related to all things vintage here at this forum. Such a thread was absolutely required. If I knew enough I'd have started one long ago. Thanks for taking the initiative!
 
When I got fascinated listening on a Turntable around 12 years ago, I desperately wanted to get a TT but none were available. Then i managed to get a Sharp music center with a belt drive TT . I as so excited but when I brought it home, I found it had no belt and no stylus. This set was given free by a family friend. I found it so difficult to get a belt and cartridge and I had absolutely no idea how to set it right. When i managed to get the set working ,it had many many issues. So I understand what a newbee can experience when they take the vinyl route.
 
Can't agree more.So when a seller says its serviced, we now know the questions to ask.

Rueben,
Since you mentioned about cars and bikes, when you buy a second hand car and take it to a work shop, the first thing they do is to change the Engine oil. Gear oil etc even if the seller informs that the car is serviced. Why do they do that? They know that it needs the oil change to ensure smooth functioning and cannot depend on seller's assurance. So, my advice to anyone who buys a second hand Turntable, however good it looks or performs, will have to be taken to a knowledgeable technician to ensure that all moving parts like main bearing, ball bearings in tone arms and other moving parts like tone arm return assembly joints are lubes with the correct lubrication oil or grease for the Turntable to perform smoothly for future.
 
For the seller, the cost of acquisition is key. If a seller has bought for Rs.30000/-, he is unlikely to sell for Rs.10000/-

If you are buying from a non-dealer, then enquire about the source of the TT. If the sellers says, I have the original bill, purchased new in from the dealer in Mumbai, etc then you are not likely to get a killer deal. Even if there is a 10-20% drop in original price, its going to be expensive. Also the seller will have to recover as much as possible if he wants to upgrade. When buying from a dealer, the cost of acquisition more often than not will be very low, but the price will be an ebay one. This is where one would need to be judicious. Always keep in mind, its a buyer's world these days. If you let one go, you will always get another "better" one :)

Sellers perspective

Very ideal - how much applicable in real life?

- Seller has limited time to demo ,and even lesser for low value items.
- When I request to do your research , very few does and they expect a seller to know all tech aspects
- If buyer comes with attitude and taking a lot of time for demo ... and you feel he is doing "timepass" , politely cloose the demo and let the sel go . Can sell the items later
My feeling is for 2 totally unknown persons seling interaction is generally between 1 hour to max max 3 hours in Mumbai - how come all your points wil be covered ?
 
Vintage Gerrads for sale, Kabariwala wanted Rs.1400/- each, was told by a senior HFM it is worth junk if it could not be repaired. Do not get fooled into buying junk.

A Garrard is a Garrard any day. In my view, they are most solid built turntables. They can be restored from whatever condition they are in. However spares come from abroad and are expensive. 1400/- for each is definitely too high. At casual glance, I would believe each deck would require and investment of atleast 10k.
 
Today's tip.

When buying any idler semi automatic or automatic turntable, a simple way to test the condition of the idler (without even looking at it) is to get the auto mechanism to work. Keep an eye on the revolutions of the platter when the auto mechanism or the auto return works. If the platter slows down or stops, on your bike and escape, the idler is worn out. Idler tension springs can also be the cause but more often than not, its the idler.
 
Well, let me narrate my first experience buying my Akai Direct Drive TT. Before my first purchase I did a lot of reading on the types of TTs etc. Then I came across a few ADs on the internet and then I started to visit these sellers. I met quite a few and even dealers and I came across rubbish players priced very high. I had made a small checklist on how to check a TT every time I visited them and ensured I performed all those steps to check. 3 months and I did not find anything I liked. I then came across a seller who had 2 TTs, one a Technics Belt drive and the other an Akai Direct Drive with an AT91 cart. Spoke to the seller quite a few times over phone and he shared lot of pictures and details of the TT. I had made up my mind on the Akai DD TT. Then I met the seller who was very genuine and he demoed the Akai TT for me. I was there for 15 minutes and closed on the deal. Cash and Carry from there. He did make one statement before I left "You are buying, what you are seeing, and he will not be responsible if anything goes wrong in the future". I took a step back for a moment and asked why do you say that. The seller explained that these are vintage players and if not taken care of properly things can go wrong and even just otherwise things can go wrong. He had even showed me the internals to show every part including the RCAs are in original shape. I was satisfied with that response.

Now, first couple of months everything worked just fine and suddenly I started to face channel imbalance. And NO my first reaction was not that the seller gave me a defective TT. I knew it had to be the RCAs as they were really old. I had the changed the interconnects and it fixed the issue. I may have been new to TTs then but Hifi was always in the family.

That said, things can go wrong even after you buy vintage TTs and its not necessarily that the seller had given you a bad product.

Thereafter a series of upgrades have happened and now I can confidently identify problems logically and have them fixed appropriately :) (L1 and L2 issues).
 
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"You are buying, what you are seeing, and he will not be responsible if anything goes wrong in the future". I took a step back for a moment and asked why do you say that. The seller explained that these are vintage players and if not taken care of properly things can go wrong and even just otherwise things can go wrong. He had even showed me the internals to show every part including the RCAs are in original shape. I was satisfied with that response.

Very reasonable, and very different to hiding something wrong with a sticking-plaster repair that can't possibly last. I'm sure that many sellers of turntables encounter people who believe that old is good, and later complain. Those people probably wouldn't apply such thinking to any other mechanical device!

Actually, it reminds me of a car that I once bought. I had fallen in love with it, and was completely deaf to the fact that even the seller was advising me not to buy! It was in such a state that only a professional restorer could have done anything with it, and the drive home was the only journey I ever did in it :(
 
Today's tip:

If a seller offers you a turntable with an expensive cartridge (magnetic) but without stylus. Don't pay extra for the cartridge. Pay extra for the cartridge only if it comes together with a good or new stylus. A cartridge without a stylus or with a damaged stylus is worthless. A new replacement stylus costs almost as much as the cart itself.
 
I just want to clarify, this thread is not intended to be anti-seller. Its just to educate newbies or buyers on what to look out for while buying a turntable.
 
If a seller offers you a turntable with an expensive cartridge (magnetic) but without stylus. Don't pay extra for the cartridge. Pay extra for the cartridge only if it comes together with a good or new stylus. ...

Even though I have "grown up" with record players, I'm still puzzled by this. How do you know if the stylus is good? Should people examine it with a glass? How would novices know what to look for? In this, even I am a novice!
 
Even though I have "grown up" with record players, I'm still puzzled by this. How do you know if the stylus is good? Should people examine it with a glass? How would novices know what to look for? In this, even I am a novice!

It is very easy to examine a stylus. All that is required is a simple magnifying glass. There are many advanced interpretations but for a beginner, the tip should be as pointed as possible (not flat) and symmetrical. Look out for un-even wear on the sides. The tip should look fresh, if you see any staining or blackening of the cantilever around the stylus area, it would mean that the stylus has been used to play dusty records. Also look for bend marks on the cantilever. With the stylus mounted to the cart, look at it from the front, the cantilever should not slant towards the side. Also the stylus tip should appear to point vertically downwards. Also the stylus should have a decently tight fit with the cart. It should not float about in the cart. These very basic checks will ensure that you get a decent stylus.
 
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A totally unscientific method to test stylus - lightly (and I mean lightly) brush the tip of the stylus on the skin of the back of your palm, or your cheek. See to it that the tip still has prick.

PS: this doesn't work for cartridges with really tiny tip.
 
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