How to hunt for old lps- concise guideline

[entsurgeon]

I found myself suggesting vinyl hunters on how to dig old out of production lp titles. Gave me the idea that this deserves a thread of it own and if its any good, mods may consider making it a sticky here or in wanted section.
First up- why we need this topic to be discussed:
We all know old indian gems on vinyl are out of production since past 15+ years. Even raddiwalas stocks have dried up.
Well I wish to stop losing this treasure. Belueve me, fm radio has covered a huge part of india including adjacent towns and villages, superceding vividh bharti so much that youngster from even the villages are now grooving to newer numbers . Now a days theres a whole generation of teens who think 70s music is old is gold. On fm channels you rarely find a pre '75 song and songs from before '70 are non existent. (nearly). Makes me wonder how long until we have a newer breed which doesn t knows who latajii is.
Situation is sad. Least we can do is at least preserve what we can before most of remaining lps are trashed.
As most of us would be aware, most cities dont have dedicated used lps shops, here is a comprehensive advise on how to dig the old stocks:
1. Propogate: everywhere you go, everyone you meet, find excuses to discuss your hobby.( but dont b a bore plz.) Most of ppl around you should b aware of your passion and if they ever come across any lp stocks they ahould know who to call.
A display of your lps in your drawingroom/office/bumper sticker may help.
2. Music shops- until y2k, we had a thronging market of sound recording in whole india. Until the anti piracy brigade hunted em down, every town had a huge number of cassette recording shops who would dub your chosen songs on blank audio cassettes. For a basic collection, all newbies should try locating such shops . Heres how-
2a.- music shops at malls isn t your cup of tea. They are all post y2k ventures. Go to older alleys.
2b- many of those shops with good stock were passion driven and are still into music/mp3 even dj/public adressing sound systems. Hunt them.
2c- older and more famous shops always had a reason to be famous. Their owners were keenly into music and in touch with music buffs. Talk to them if you get a chance. They may not have old stocks. But they would know the regular clients who purchased lps regularly. They will tell you about few individuals and many recording shops.
They will at least tell you a few hot contacts.
Since most of these people were into pro-job, their stocks were mostly the popular demands only. So, to dig mehdi hassan, beghum akhtar or even ghulam ali you d need to find out the most famous , most well stocked shops. In most cases this famous ppl wud still be in sound business and well connected. Easier to find them but getting their treasure intact today - keep fingers crossed! Sigh of relief- the huge stocks weren t scrapped. Mostly you were beaten by some other buff who got hold of the stocks before you.
Fret not. Get those ppl s number. Befriend them. You might already be knowing some of them. They might donate you the titles they dont listen to or have extra copies of. Even if they dont, they would b your seniors in this hobby- good people to talk to.
However as I mentioned, you ll get popular titles there. Forget ustad bade ghulam ali khan saab or amir khan saab.
3. Kabadi/antique/flae markets:
Not a very consistent source. Even quality of lps from here would be a bit worse usually. But where it scores above the rest is the variety.
These guys get stocks from old attics and are your bet for finding rarest titles that the recording guys never got coz it didn t make business sense for them.
Bismillah khan saab/pannalal ghosh/bhimsen joshi titles- if its your lucky day.
4- ..... Contd-

 

[kuruvilajacob]

Dear entsurgeon,

Thanks for bringing up the topic of hunting for rare and common lps. I started collecting lps only 7 years back and could get approx 4000 English records some of the very good to not too good . I have sold doubles and those not to my taste (maybe 1500 nos) . I know how difficult it is to get good LPs now. It used to be easier earlier. I suggest that those who have a passion can certainly unearth hidden records lying in someone's attic if you keep mentioning your passion for LPs. I have done it successfully several times. Wherever I go, the first thing I try to do is locate local markets where LPs and players are available. I have even gone to places infested with scavengers and you'll be surprised to know that I got a rare double album of 1946 live performance of Duke Ellington ! Even locals guys in that town are surprised how I managed it! It is the passion that drives guys like me to these places. I am sure there are several alleys and lanes in our country where these gems are waiting to be picked up. All the best to all lp hunters
kuruvilajacob

 

[miroflex]

Hello ENT Surgeon and Kuruvila Jacob,

Thanks for the informative and encouraging posts. Keep up the good work!

Regards.

 

[tek]

Another good tip that has really helped in the past, is to put up notices in clubs, societies, gyms, etc., any place where there are members who read bulliten boards. Put up a wanted sign for old LPs and you will definitely get many phone calls! I have found some real gems using this method.

 

[Tanoj]

Hello friends

i often get call from Mr. Deshmukh, from Pune

He says he has huge collection of old vinyl treasure

Pune guys please check with him and let us know the condition etc.. so that i can go ahead and order few

*** I dd not had any transaction with him yet, so not very sure about the condition and quality of the disc etc ****

His number is : 9850556484

Tanoj

 

[entsurgeon]

okay so second part of the write up is here:
4- hunt down the record player repairman.
find out who is the best guy in town. in past 15 years, only the best of the best kept their shops going. find out who repairs the cinema sound system and other pro audio systems in your city. this is good for tier1 and tier 2 cities only where such guys existed. but other locals can try their luck too.
the purpose of finding out this guy is to find out who else has kept listening to lps till recently. ever since vinyl culture packed up, most dedicated audiophiles tried to keep the show running with the help of these guys only. they ll direct you towards the best of private collections. classical, indian, western, quawalis, any and everything. most serendipities await you here. work your charm upon these a'philes to get them to part with their lp collection.
many offline audiophiles believe that carts, needles etc are now unavailable. meeting you may elate them and they could really add to your collection. though if you can, try to revive their passion.

 

[kuruvilajacob]

Dr entsurgeon,
I think I am a lucky guy. I have a guy here in my town who could be one of the best turntable repairguys in India! He takes his job very seriously and he has repaired turntables others have abandoned. Especially the old changers . He is willing to repair any player if repairable. I buy several players and he never disappoints.
kuruvilajacob

 

[entsurgeon]

Thats a great info jacob. In todays era of superspecialization, its great we have a well informed tt repair guy still surviving.

 

[entsurgeon]

posted this in a wanted thread by miroflex. turned out good enough to be duplicated here.:
"

How much do you think would be a fair price per record for collections of 100 or so records?

Regards.

well if you take entire collection, 50-75 rs per lp is fair. this is for collections of those passionate peoples' attic collection that they nurtured over the years and refuse to send em to kabaadis and alloted expensive real estates at their houses for years with no plans as to what to do of them. by kabaadi rates- an lp costs nearly 4 rs apiece.(12-15 rs /kg)
but all those who weren t very peculiar about keeping their collections already sent em off to kabaadis. so if someone has spent years in careful upkeep of lps , u just cant expect to get it at kabaadi rates. had they wanted this rate they would have parted with em long ago. depending on collection size and quality i am suggesting this rate. keeping in mind some records may turn out beyond salvage, some other titles you may already be having and still others of absolutely no interest to you. when you are not buying entire collection and choosing your titles, prices may vary from 100-1000 rs.
for a good collection , twice or thrice that bulk price may also be okay. heres my guesslist of what should sell at higher or side of price spectrum :
1. at highest end of spectrum are fm hits. titles like parinda , arth, ijaazat and yes, jagjit singhs albums. (mirza ghalib 2 lp set is being spoken for 3-5k reportedly.) this may change few years down the line with change in popular tastes). usually a discrepency in demand and supply has caused em to cost 1k-5k each.
2.Collections or compilations: best of kishore kumare, cbarets of asha bhosle enchanting hour with ghulam ali. list is endless.they would retail for 300-500 per lp in general.
3. super duperhit movies with great songs . older ones are dearer in general but theres a huge overlap in cost brackets. they are not much rarer to come by but being out of production, every newbie in vinyl world would reach out for the titles as some genres are common denominators in all indian music lps fans' tastes. eg- madhumati, cid, khamoshi, UMRAO JAAN, NAVRANG, etc etc.
4. ghazals, classicals music. quawwalis etc. somehow i fail to understand that the most uncommen of the mass market genres retails at the lower end of spectrum but such is life.
5. lesser known of folk/ghazal/bhajan artists and yes- instrumentals too.
6. shellacs: believe it or not, 78 rpm titles are at bottom of the spectrum in general. going for around rs 100 a title usually. however they usually have just 1 song a side. so, at rs 50 per song they arent exactly cheap.
7. eps being smaller in size and having not that good cover art/design are usually priced at half of lps or even less. rs 200 may be max you may have to shell out for some good titles on ep.
here is the disclaimer for above:
few lps/shellac cost as much as 10-20-25 k apiece. they are collectors items for various reasons and hence. cancelled numbers, unreleased lps etc.
barn finds will invariably be cheaper. a fellow member got netaji sc bose' speeches titled voice of netaji for rs 20 iirc.
buying from vendors /internet will make you more poorer but very often, the good ones could be notified of titles you are interested in and if you buy regularly, chances are you ll be first one to be told about the rare title you were searching for. beware, this means you ll have to shell out more than other peers to keep your vendor interested. worth it for some titles though. give me a master madan bandish any day.
titles with no takers aren t counted at all here. however i found them useful as donors of jackets/sleeves for good lps with bad/no covers and sleeves. lap em up at 20-30 rs or less.
cross posting this in the thread you ve named miro."

 

[soulforged]

Great tips there doc! :clapping:

It would be nice if you could also spend some time in explaining on how to evaluate the record itself...on how to grade it, what to look out for, what to avoid etc.

Thanks!

 

[entsurgeon]

Great tips there doc! :clapping:

It would be nice if you could also spend some time in explaining on how to evaluate the record itself...on how to grade it, what to look out for, what to avoid etc.

Thanks!

though i ll do it with pics, this is something we can search for online for better articles by much more experienced guys. however watch out. i ll post it in this week.

 

[hemantwaghe]

I am hearing too much about cancelled numbers what is it exactly?


What are unreleased lps ? If unreleased - they should not exist right?

Also why Angel / odeon pressings are sought over? was there quality difference?

 

[entsurgeon]

Hi hemant. Cancelled numbers were songs that were duly recorded but could not make it to the movies. Such songs were usually released on eps. Also some movies couldn t b released after being completed . Their lps/eps were also called so.
Unreleased in market but maybe recorded and cut in limited numbers for promotions sake in inner circles of film industry. Such lps do exist. They were made but never marketed.

 

[Hiten]

I am hearing too much about cancelled numbers what is it exactly?


What are unreleased lps ? If unreleased - they should not exist right?

Also why Angel / odeon pressings are sought over? was there quality difference?

I guess those pressing are considered first pressings and metal master is fresh (not worn out) But I have never experienced any SQ difference. Also I don't find any logic in rare and cancel numbers. We buy vinyls for listening, so music is important. Pesonally I find no point in buying rare/cancel numbers. If We are not going to listen to them what use it has ?
Regards

 

[Shivam]

Great tips there doc! :clapping:

It would be nice if you could also spend some time in explaining on how to evaluate the record itself...on how to grade it, what to look out for, what to avoid etc.

Thanks!

Search for Goldmine grading for LP.

 

[miroflex]

Dear ENT Surgeon,

Thank you very much for your very interesting and informative post on prices of old records. This is a grey area for most of us. It is good of you to throw so much light on it. Also for your hard work in trying to preserve and provide old records to other users.

Regards.

 

[entsurgeon]

I guess those pressing are considered first pressings and metal master is fresh (not worn out) But I have never experienced any SQ difference. Also I don't find any logic in rare and cancel numbers. We buy vinyls for listening, so music is important. Pesonally I find no point in buying rare/cancel numbers. If We are not going to listen to them what use it has ?
Regards

Though I agree with your sentiments, you aren t correct on either fronts.
These cancelled numbers were, as an unspoken rule, never been released on other formats. Also, many titles , due to popular choices of that era, were rather released as a combination with some other title on cassettes thereby editing out some songs on cassettes. This made lps /eps exclusive source for such songs. Often these songs were good, gained popularity later and made cancelled numbers eps exclusive/sought after. Unfortunately I just woke up and no example is coming in mind.

Also, one of effects of paki piracy was on lp production. They would release lps knock offs in pak . These had low quality cover art u could tell. These found a way back to india and were quite common. These are different from paki imitations of our songs and movies. They were sort of pirated lps.
Angel/odeon were original indian pressings and are considered better.
I never did an a/b comparison. Cover art quality was definitely a notch or 2 lower. This is what I ve heard from manny mannnny senior vinylphiles. Never came across an authentic, proof laden version. But every one came up with this story.
Also, I my post about lp pricing applies to vendors. Barn finds could b cheaper.
@shivam goldmine rating is for buying online where a standardised grading of lp condition is universally accepted. Poster specifically wants to know how to evaluate an lp condition. I ll try to answer it in next post.

 

[Hiten]

Thanks Doc,
I agree with you old unheard unreleased songs are a delight to listen to at first. But so fare I have not liked (for ex. Pakeeza rang-barang) unreleased songs. May be they should be heard few more times to grow on oneself. The point I was making is if those songs are not liked there is no point in keeping that vinyl. Regarding first pressing I will take vinylphiles word any day. It is always good to have top notch things in ones collection.
Dont know how things were in those days but I presume HMV being parent company even in pakistan they may have shared single master disc. So may be vinyl pressing engineers in pakistan had little different approach so they may sound different. .
regards

 

[rdxguy]

I am hearing too much about cancelled numbers what is it exactly?


What are unreleased lps ? If unreleased - they should not exist right?

Also why Angel / odeon pressings are sought over? was there quality difference?

Hello,
Definitely Angel pressings have better quality because they were mastered by sound engineers from Decca who had golden ears. That's why even Indian pressings of Decca Lps (like Tom Jones, Rolling Stones) sound far better than the foreign pressings of Polydor, CBS LPs (like ABBA, Billy Joel etc).