Indian Classical music - is there anything called audiophile quality?

Essarr

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In a land rich in the tradition of classical music (both, Hindustani and Carnatic) why is it so difficult to find, forget audiophile, some decent quality of either live concert or studio recordings? On an average, an estimated 200-odd concerts conducted and recorded every week throughout the country. And, that figure goes up by leaps and bound during festival seasons held in various cities. Help me out, anyone.

I am aware about a few Foreign-Made-Indian-Music labels like Water Lily Acoustics, ECM, Ryko, who are mostly spot on with imaging, timber and room acoustics. And some like Chanda Dhara, Nimbus, JVC World, Navrang, Oriental Records, Moment Records, etc., that have a varying levels of recording quality and sometimes with errors on the titling of the tracks on the records/CD.

To highlight the point, let me relate a story:

In 1976, recording engineer Gert Palmcrantz set up just three microphones (Neumann U47, KM56, and M49), hooked them to a portable stereo reel-to-reel tape recorder (Nagra IV) via a pair of noise reduction units (Dolby A316) at Stockholm's crowded Stampen Jazz Club (a location that used to be a pawnshop once) and was able to produce a 2-set vinyl record (or 2-CD released in 1977) that is today considered ideal reference quality recordings by most audio and jazz enthusiasts around the globe - a must have for any audio system set up. I am talking about "Jazz at the Pawnshop" Vol.1 & 2 on Proprious Music label (PROP 7778/79 or CDP 7778/79). In his own words, Palmcrantz states that during the two evenings of recording sessions, the place was so crowded and noisy that he had to move into the cramped kitchen with his Nagra recorder on his lap and monitor the recording via headphones. Minimal equipment, maximum effort, and what do we end up with - some music that is used today to evaluate high end audio systems. Then, several years later (2007/8, I think) Winston Ma of First Impression Music acquires the right to remaster the original tapes and produces an even more dynamically stunning set of CDs. I have both Proprius' LPs and FIM CDs and I listen to them quite often.

After that kind of listening experience, if I put on an Indian made/recorded CD (of classical music), I hear the treble of the dayan of a tabla on the right speaker and bass of the b?y? on the left speaker. The same with the Karanai and Thoppi of a mirdangam. And then, right in the middle of a song, the accompanying violin, harmonium, sarangi, whatever, seem to move at will from right to left or vice-versa or an accompanying instrumentalist suddenly becomes louder than the main artist. Really, who are these so called professionals sitting behind mixing and mastering desks? However, I still listen to such ill-engineered recordings simply because the quality of music contents by certain Ustads, Pandits, Vidwans and Maestros (from past and present) is not easy to pass up. However, I move away from my speakers (to another room or area of the house) for some long distance listening..!

Another phenomena I have come across here in India, is even with original recording is of foreign origins, but if the pressings or the CD manufacturing happens to be India, I find the music can sound compressed and thin in comparison to the original. My most recent experience in this matter was with the purchase of Koushiki Chakrabarty's live London concert CD album titled "Pure" from Amazon-India.Their web page for the product displays it as an "Import" from UK label, Sense Music World. But what I received was Times Music edition with a clear "Made in India" stamp - somewhat thin and compressed sounding, but I can't confirm that until I receive the Sense CD to make a direct comparison.

In a digital world of zeros and one, how can such degradation of sound happen, one (like me) may ask. If you refer to a recent topic in these forums about FiiO X3 DAP, you will find that merely upgrading firmware from V 2.4 to V 3.0 actually makes the unit sound better. So, there you have an answer to reversing the end result.

But before I get some suggestions, let me list a few recordings that I think may be worth considering, they may not be audiophile, but will be acceptable to most nevertheless:
1. Pandit Hariprasad Chowrasia & Zakir Hussain - "Possession" Vol. 1, 2 & 3 (Pan Music 1994) Live at Osho, Pune. Flute Hindistani
2. Ramnad Krishnan, Vidwan - "Songs of the Carnatic Tradition" (Electra/Nonesuch 9 72023-2) Vocal Carnatic
3. S.Balachander - "Sangeeta Madras" - Pacific World Records (LP) No known CD versions. Veena Carnatic
- The thani-avardhanam of mirdangam and ghatam on 'B' side by U.Sivaraman and V.Rambadhran is the best I have ever heard.
4. L.Shankar - "Who is to Know" (ECM) Violin Carnatic.
5. Ustad Rashid Khan - "Ragas Kedar, Shahana & Abogi" - (Navras Records UK - NR00712) Live Hindustani vocal concert London.
6. Master Shashank - "Endless Beauties from the Bamboo Flute - (Distrconics/Shruti Records 2CD) Flute Carnatic.
7. Rajeswari Padmanaban - "Music of the Veena II" - (JVC World Sounds VICG-5038) Veena Carnatic.

(You could also refer to my "Desert Island Top Ten" elsewhere on this site).

Last words: India is simply not able to document its musical heritage properly (I am not talking about 'audiophile' grade), and the urgent need here is for more of Alexander Kavivardhan (Water Lily Acoustics), Manfred Echier (ECM), Rudy Van Gelder (Blue Note), Joe Harley (AudioQuest Music) and their variety in India. Otherwise, we may just have to drop the holy grail of audio gear (and nirvana) and resign ourselves to cheap boom-boxes.
 
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I agree with you about the recording quality of Indian Classical in general. I really wish the artists would insist on better recording from the recording companies/labels.

I started enjoying Carnatic music at live performances about a year back, and as hard as I've looked, I find it difficult to find recordings on CDs that don't make my ear bleed. Not that the live performances are much better, but I find that I enjoy them very much regardless of the bad sound. I can't say the same for CDs.

I think Hindustani Classical fares somewhat better, and I have been able to find a few recordings that are fairly good.

I know it's all about the music, and we shouldn't care about the recording and all that, but when the recording is so bad that it distracts you, or makes your ears hurt, that makes it difficult to enjoy the music itself.

The only solution I've found is to go to as many live performances as I'm able to. I'm blessed with a semi-permanent venue in a park just 2 kms from my house, where there are amateur performances (good ones!) at least thrice a month, and professional performances once in a couple of months.
 
I started enjoying Carnatic music at live performances about a year back, and as hard as I've looked, I find it difficult to find recordings on CDs that don't make my ear bleed. Not that the live performances are much better, but I find that I enjoy them very much regardless of the bad sound.

they are often much worse! But still, the total experience of live concerts is so much more involving, on musical and social levels, that I listen to very little carnatic music at home, but go out to experience it over (approx average) a hundred times a year.

I know it's all about the music, and we shouldn't care about the recording and all that ...
On the contrary, if we care about the music, then we should care care about the recording and the sad part is that the engineers didn't.
if I put on an Indian made/recorded CD (of classical music), I hear the treble of the dayan of a tabla on the right speaker and bass of the b?y? on the left speaker. The same with the Karanai and Thoppi of a mirdangam. And then, right in the middle of a song, the accompanying violin, harmonium, sarangi, whatever, seem to move at will from right to left or vice-versa or an accompanying instrumentalist suddenly becomes louder than the main artist. Really, who are these so called professionals sitting behind mixing and mastering desks?
What do they care about? As per Essarr's examples above, what they care about is playing with their knobs.

I'd add a laughing smillie, except that I don't think it is a laughing matter. If techie masturbation is their thing, let them do it home, in private, and let proper engineers do the job of bringing us the music.
 
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Some of the best recordings of classical music
Conversations 1984 by Dr. L. Subramaniam & Stphane Grappelli ? (Milestone Records, Germany)
A Meeting by the River 1993 by Ry Cooder and Vishwa Mohan Bhatt (Water Lily Acoustics, US)
Passages 1990 By Ravi Shankar and Philip Glass (Atlantic Records, US)
and any classical recordings from the recording labels like Angel Records, Atlantic Records and Water Lily Acoustics...
 
A very valid topic! Feels sad to think about it indeed.

I don't have much Indian classical music in my collection, despite the fact that i love the genre. I have looked for a bought some CDs, but the quality is disappointing. I have seen some of the same CDs are available from foreign lables, which cost 10 times or so, but I hope the quality will be pleasing.

I have been procrastinating on my plan to finally get some Indian music on a foreign label (what an irony) and see how different things are. Till then, it's the stupid recording/mixing/production by our local brothers.
 
Making Music

Making_Music_(album).jpg
 
Call of the valley
Ragas and Saga - Jan Gabarek & Ustad Fateh Ali Khan (Nice slow flowing music)
Kaushiki Chakrabarty - Pure (One of my fav. albums)
Masters of Percussion
Selvaganesh - Soukha
A meeting by the river - V.M Bhatt and Ry Cooder
 
Many of the recommendations are echoing Essarr's complaint by virtue of being fusion or collaboration with non-Indian musicians.
 
Yes, I was about to be a disclaimer that sadly all are foreign collaborations.

It's like "gharki murgi daal barabar"! :(

As a silver lining on the dark cloud there are some artists who sound so good even with poor recordings.

For good listening try these:

chakrabarty.jpg


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I have both in CD format.
 
The Hindustani recordings on Water Lily Records are excellent. All Blumlein miced, tube cut in analog. Ali Akbar Khan albums in particular. The NCPA recordings are not terrible- at least no clearly audible distortion like so many other recordings.
 
I agree with Hydra, the best solution is to go to live concerts. But again, what I found (at some venues) is I am faced with the same recording-grease-monkeys in different clothes, they are handling the PA system...!
 
I thank everyone for their recommendations. But I think the point is missed - Hindustani or Carnatic classical, per se, is the subject. Many are pointing towards East/West collaborations, which deviates from the true sense of tradition, say, Garana or established old school. Indeed, I have many of those produced by ECM and Water Lily Acoustics, some of which are genuine stuff, not adapted for western ear. I have more than a dozen of Chennai's December concerts on CD, and they all suffer at the hands of the recording engineer and producer. -SR
 
Yes- my response was non-fusion, core classical only (even if they are on a Western record label). There are 2 major problems that I find- the tabla (or other percussion) is too closely miked, and there is no concept of soundstage. Vocals centre, tabla hard right, and tanpura hard left. It's extremely unrealistic.
That being said, some of the vinyl from the 60s and 70s that Ihave sounds quite good.
 
Let's be fair...

I have quite a few carnatic CDs, and whilst I recognise all the mentioned faults, introduced at the mixing desk (stupid excess reverb adding a big, empty hall effect is one you left out*. Listen to some BMK CDs. If you can: it makes them unbearable to me) many of not most of my CDs are perfectly listenable.




*And an electronic tambura which is louder than the musicians is another!
 
Yes- my response was non-fusion, core classical only (even if they are on a Western record label). There are 2 major problems that I find- the tabla (or other percussion) is too closely miked, and there is no concept of soundstage. Vocals centre, tabla hard right, and tanpura hard left. It's extremely unrealistic.
That being said, some of the vinyl from the 60s and 70s that Ihave sounds quite good.

Yes. I agree with yours.
 
... If techie masturbation is their thing, let them do it home, in private, and let proper engineers do the job of bringing us the music.

So true!

I agree with Hydra, the best solution is to go to live concerts. But again, what I found (at some venues) is I am faced with the same recording-grease-monkeys in different clothes, they are handling the PA system...!

Oh yes! The PA systems are similarly afflicted, all right!

I usually try to get to the venue a bit early, and find a seat that's least offensive sounding. Since the venue I go to regularly uses just 2 speakers right next to the stage, I generally get to adjust the sound somewhat by sitting a bit towards the rear of the venue. Not so good for seeing the artists perform (an important part of a live performance), but good for the sound.
 
This post did bring me positive results, limited may be, but better than nothing.

- Rohitmusic, thank you for recommending:
Call of the Valley - H.Chaurasia/B.B.Kabra/S.Sharma - EMI
Jhanak - Kaushiki/A.Charabarty - Times Music

- Abhijitnath, thank you mentioning:
NCPA (National Center Performing Arts - Mumbai) is certainly a venue worth exploring. I do have many CDs of Water Lily Acoustics. Kavi Alexander of Water Lily Acoustics was an acquaintance since his apprenticeship days with Joe Harley at AudioQuest Music (and yes, Joe Harley, Bill Law at AQ and Joseph Strovas ex AQ, now with Densen Audio Technology, are all known people to me).

- Thad E Ginathom:
I didn't get "Listen to some BMK CDs". I couldn't find a music label by that name. If you meant Dr. Balamuralikrishna, then, I have to say unfortunately he is not one among my favoured artist. But I do have his "Sampradaya Ustava Kritis". Thanks anyway.

All the other recommended recordings, I have them, either on CD or vinyl.

I am not debating a known fact that the majority of recordings of Indian classical music are pathetic. This is probably more applicable to recordings in recent times than from the past. Older vinyl from HMV Dum Dum Calcutta, sounds far better than many of today's CDs.

A few months back, I asked a friend who is in the digital audio industry if there was any way I could improve the sound quality of a badly recorded CD. The response was a point-blank NO, "You put in 'sugar', what you get is 'sugar'," was what he said (yes, quote edited for the sake of decorum..!). However, one of his suggestions struck me right between the ears:

"Say, if you have a record label that is consistently putting out rubbish, the best way to deal with it is through the artist, not with the record company. Top-brass of most record companies don't care a 'sugar' for your opinion. The ideal way to go about it is to pack the 'thrash' CD(s) and mail it to the performing artist with note stating that you will not be buying his/her music any more because the recording quality sucks."

"Given time, you will be amazed at the outcome. True, the money spent on the CD is down the drain, but would have probably ripped the music on the CD to your hard-disc anyway and still have some kind of an archive of the music. All you loose just a little aluminum and plastic. The result here (Canada), especially with independent acoustic music groups and classical solo groups, has produced some favorable results - decent sound quality."

In my opinion, this is something to think about, if we want better quality recordings (and hence, better quality audio gear).
 
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Hi all,

I think the India Today releases (on CD) and earlier Columbia Releases (BM Krishna, Chitti Babu, MLV) and MSSubbulaxmi's Annamacharya Kritis 5 Volumes) are an exception to this thread. Her UN Concert was also not mastered properly, if we should say from Audiophile point of view. I had an Veena S.Gayathri's CD (by Super Records Chennai) which was nearly Audiophile.

N.Murali
 
A beautiful, well-constructed speaker with class-leading soundstage, imaging and bass that is fast, deep, and precise.
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