Is it worth to spend on mid range priced speakers in Living room without acoustic controlled?

[swamytk]

I have started understanding my requirement for future HT build. I am residing in a rented apartment without any scope/budget for acoustic control in Living room where I am planning to have a 5.x/7.x Home theater setup. All auditions happen in acoustic controlled environment in showroom. So auditions won't be much helpful in this case. With this background I would like to understand whether I can really reap benefit out of audiophile quality good speakers. Here "audiophile quality" is an ambiguous term, you may consider as good/decent quality also depends on your budget/expert level.

Let's consider speakers below in non-acoustic controlled Living room:
Well rated Economic speakers in price range of 25-30K: Pioneer SP-FS52 and Polk T50 Speakers
vs
Well rated speakers in price range of 50K: Elac Debut 2.0 F5.2, Q Acoustics 3050i and Fyne Audio F302/F303

With choices like above one, is it worth spending 50-60K for a room which is not acoustic controlled? 25K worth of these speakers are more VFM in this scenario?

 

[Ashenden]

Hi, Please don’t worry too much about reviews you read online. Even the speakers from lower price range might be good enough for our needs. Just keep a budget in mind before going for auditioning. Since you’re not in a position to modify your room for HT, the current setup also should yield a very good performance, with a few tweaks implemented. Best wishes on the hunt

 

[sound_cycle]

I have started understanding my requirement for future HT build. I am residing in a rented apartment without any scope/budget for acoustic control in Living room where I am planning to have a 5.x/7.x Home theater setup. All auditions happen in acoustic controlled environment in showroom. So auditions won't be much helpful in this case. With this background I would like to understand whether I can really reap benefit out of audiophile quality good speakers. Here "audiophile quality" is an ambiguous term, you may consider as good/decent quality also depends on your budget/expert level.

Let's consider speakers below in non-acoustic controlled Living room:
Well rated Economic speakers in price range of 25-30K: Pioneer SP-FS52 and Polk T50 Speakers
vs
Well rated speakers in price range of 50K: Elac Debut 2.0 F5.2, Q Acoustics 3050i and Fyne Audio F302/F303

With choices like above one, is it worth spending 50-60K for a room which is not acoustic controlled? 25K worth of these speakers are more VFM in this scenario?

Seriously ? Headphones. Anything else includes the room.


Someone should have told me before I got on a dabba buying wallet death spiral.

Ciao
GR

 

[prateekatasniya]

I have started understanding my requirement for future HT build. I am residing in a rented apartment without any scope/budget for acoustic control in Living room where I am planning to have a 5.x/7.x Home theater setup. All auditions happen in acoustic controlled environment in showroom. So auditions won't be much helpful in this case. With this background I would like to understand whether I can really reap benefit out of audiophile quality good speakers. Here "audiophile quality" is an ambiguous term, you may consider as good/decent quality also depends on your budget/expert level.

Let's consider speakers below in non-acoustic controlled Living room:
Well rated Economic speakers in price range of 25-30K: Pioneer SP-FS52 and Polk T50 Speakers
vs
Well rated speakers in price range of 50K: Elac Debut 2.0 F5.2, Q Acoustics 3050i and Fyne Audio F302/F303

With choices like above one, is it worth spending 50-60K for a room which is not acoustic controlled? 25K worth of these speakers are more VFM in this scenario?

Your furniture, carpet, curtains etc act like
absorbers. Clean sound is clean in any place.. but yeah acoustics enhances it.
Make other factors like seating position, speaker placement, file quality matters.
Amplification matters.

 

[swamytk]

Your furniture, carpet, curtains etc act like
absorbers. Clean sound is clean in any place.. but yeah acoustics enhances it.
Make other factors like seating position, speaker placement, file quality matters.
Amplification matters.

Thanks. Keeping the above factors as constant in non controlled environment, will the different speakers make audible difference? Sorry, if I am adamant in this question?

 

[swamytk]

Seriously ? Headphones. Anything else includes the room.


Someone should have told me before I got on a dabba buying wallet death spiral.

Ciao
GR

Sorry, again for unable to understand - my bad english. Do you mean speaker placement, listening position, calibration does make a lot of difference than costlier speaker?

 

[liverpool_for_life]

Do you mean speaker placement, listening position, calibration does make a lot of difference than costlier speaker?

I think he meant that the room is a major influence, regardless of the quality of speakers. The only known way to remove the room from the equation is to use headphones.

 

[elangoas]

I have started understanding my requirement for future HT build. I am residing in a rented apartment without any scope/budget for acoustic control in Living room where I am planning to have a 5.x/7.x Home theater setup.

There is only so much you can do when you don't have space at your liberty.. That doesn't mean everything is lost.. Infact, most of the members (including me) here have their HT set-up in less than ideal locations like living room and enjoy it..

AVR's inbuilt automatic EQ can help overcome some of the acoustical issues in the room..

Go ahead, build your HT set-up, use the aval resources (EQ in AVR) and enjoy it.. Importantly, get the speakers what you can afford in your budget..

 

[Music Freak]

Let's consider speakers below in non-acoustic controlled Living room:
Well rated Economic speakers in price range of 25-30K: Pioneer SP-FS52 and Polk T50 Speakers
vs
Well rated speakers in price range of 50K: Elac Debut 2.0 F5.2, Q Acoustics 3050i and Fyne Audio F302/F303

In case you decide that you'd want the budget friendly yet nice sounding & VFM speakers, my pick would be the Pioneer FSs.

I don't have any sort of manual acoustic treatment in my bedroom; just that I've provided a decent space between the wall and the speakers. These FSs sound sweet.

 

[arunkvivek]

I believe that the catch here is how good the AVR is & synergy between speakers and AVR. Pioneer AJ series and Elac entry level series are power hungry speakers. They sound meek with entry level Marantz NR series or Denon X540/550 - X1500 series. They sound like different set of speakers when paired with power amps (Pioneer AJ are quite famous for that). If your speaker sensitivity are 87 db and less, you need beefier AVR. The advantage about powerful AVRs is that because they are higher in the product line, they usually come with better room correction software!!!

I have Marantz SR6013 with ensemble speakers of different sensitivity and grade for 5.0 setup. My room is not treated (only a shaggy carpet) and is odd shaped. The Audessey did correct the room issues to a great extent. Are my speakers sounding better? Yes, they do. For sake of fun, i keep toggling between music-stereo mode (with Audessey correction) and pure direct mode. Audessey modes sound very clean. Pure direct mode seems to be more real. Even my TV speakers sound better when powered by AVR. I occasionally play multi-channel stereo for fun. The cheapest speakers that I have connected - Philips DH215 for surrounds do sound good for Vocals (it has no bass). The crunch of a punch and swoosh of car chase are emotively expressed (if these would define audiophile experience). I think AVRs do make speakers sound good.

What differences do i feel between a treated audition room and mine -
1. lack of timbre match - As I use what I have accumulated and not gone for a package yet. My wife and parents don't feel any issues. So I am fine here as. I don't feel it is worth to chase this trait given my financial situation. But, if I had the dimes, I would definitely coax my wife to loosen the purse strings and get a package of same brand.

2. The rooms ability to take killer bass from SW. My room struggled with the bass from FR horns until Audessey tamed it but still it is not going to be as good as a showroom.

Answer to the other question: Are any of these experiences audiophile? No, they aren't. Audiophiles don't use AVR They stick to stereo setups which can never be matched by a 5.1 setup.

If I have some money and would have to decide whether to put it in speakers or AVR (as you are considering only HT), I would go beefier AVR with entry level package of TAGA, Pioneer AJ etc. No point in getting good speakers if you don't have a capable AVR. IMHO, the speakers tend to yield more quality to better amplification than cheaper AVR's ability to extract better performance out of expensive speakers.

 

[swamytk]

I believe that the catch here is how good the AVR is & synergy between speakers and AVR. Pioneer AJ series and Elac entry level series are power hungry speakers. They sound meek with entry level Marantz NR series or Denon X540/550 - X1500 series. They sound like different set of speakers when paired with power amps (Pioneer AJ are quite famous for that). If your speaker sensitivity are 87 db and less, you need beefier AVR. The advantage about powerful AVRs is that because they are higher in the product line, they usually come with better room correction software!!!

I have Marantz SR6013 with ensemble speakers of different sensitivity and grade for 5.0 setup. My room is not treated (only a shaggy carpet) and is odd shaped. The Audessey did correct the room issues to a great extent. Are my speakers sounding better? Yes, they do. For sake of fun, i keep toggling between music-stereo mode (with Audessey correction) and pure direct mode. Audessey modes sound very clean. Pure direct mode seems to be more real. Even my TV speakers sound better when powered by AVR. I occasionally play multi-channel stereo for fun. The cheapest speakers that I have connected - Philips DH215 for surrounds do sound good for Vocals (it has no bass). The crunch of a punch and swoosh of car chase are emotively expressed (if these would define audiophile experience). I think AVRs do make speakers sound good.

What differences do i feel between a treated audition room and mine -
1. lack of timbre match - As I use what I have accumulated and not gone for a package yet. My wife and parents don't feel any issues. So I am fine here as. I don't feel it is worth to chase this trait given my financial situation. But, if I had the dimes, I would definitely coax my wife to loosen the purse strings and get a package of same brand.

2. The rooms ability to take killer bass from SW. My room struggled with the bass from FR horns until Audessey tamed it but still it is not going to be as good as a showroom.

Answer to the other question: Are any of these experiences audiophile? No, they aren't. Audiophiles don't use AVR They stick to stereo setups which can never be matched by a 5.1 setup.

If I have some money and would have to decide whether to put it in speakers or AVR (as you are considering only HT), I would go beefier AVR with entry level package of TAGA, Pioneer AJ etc. No point in getting good speakers if you don't have a capable AVR. IMHO, the speakers tend to yield more quality to better amplification than cheaper AVR's ability to extract better performance out of expensive speakers.

Insightful, thanks for detailed analysis and experience.

 

[tuff]

@swamytk I feel sometimes people forget WHY they bought the gear. to listen to music. And that should be the end goal. Imaging,Sound stage,Timbre are more of a KIDA (worm) than anything to do with music. A better sounding system will give you more pleasure to listen to your favorite music than a average sounding one. An Audiophile is someone who is searching what only exists in their mind, Not something that can be engineered. If you find yourself fiddling to much with your gear, or buying changing gear, you are not in it for the music, but are lusting after that illusive perfect sound that only exists in your mind.
Coming to your question, if you don't have enough space to accommodate 5 speakers, don't get it. I had setup a home theater, and eventually got rid of it. You dont want speakers too close to you even if you are using calibrations. It is annoying. Stereo Bookshelves with a sub sounds very good when you have a small room. In the end, more speakers simply means more work you have to do to get the room right. Getting two is hard for most, imagine 5

 

[swamytk]

@swamytk I feel sometimes people forget WHY they bought the gear. to listen to music. And that should be the end goal. Imaging,Sound stage,Timbre are more of a KIDA (worm) than anything to do with music. A better sounding system will give you more pleasure to listen to your favorite music than a average sounding one. An Audiophile is someone who is searching what only exists in their mind, Not something that can be engineered. If you find yourself fiddling to much with your gear, or buying changing gear, you are not in it for the music, but are lusting after that illusive perfect sound that only exists in your mind.
Coming to your question, if you don't have enough space to accommodate 5 speakers, don't get it. I had setup a home theater, and eventually got rid of it. You dont want speakers too close to you even if you are using calibrations. It is annoying. Stereo Bookshelves with a sub sounds very good when you have a small room. In the end, more speakers simply means more work you have to do to get the room right. Getting two is hard for most, imagine 5

Thanks. Different perspective! Great! It is not about no. of speakers, but about costlier speaker vs vfm speakers and its impact on acoustics uncontrolled room. Any idea on that perspective?

 

[tuff]

Whats the difference? What is expensive for one is cheap for someone else. Price of speaker should never be the criteria for room treatment. a 10k pair will do the same that a 50k or a 100 k speaker will do. More expensive speakers do not negate room adjustment/ treatment.

 

[swamytk]

Whats the difference? What is expensive for one is cheap for someone else. Price of speaker should never be the criteria for room treatment. a 10k pair will do the same that a 50k or a 100 k speaker will do. More expensive speakers do not negate room adjustment/ treatment.

To the point! Thanks a lot. So an AVR with good calibration capability plays important role in this scenario.

 

[tuff]

In my experience, room calibration helps up to a point, but after that you have to do changes to your room. That need not be acoustic panels/absorbers or what not. Sometimes, getting a rug on the floor helps immensely. Wall hangings, paintings, bookshelves, something that breaks the flatness of the room walls. Sofas are great to absorb unruly bass. Glass panels are bad. Be it doors/windows, they can be covered. Curtains work great.Little things like isolating speakers work like a charm especially for bookshelf speakers. In the end, if you still are not happy with the sound, get panels.

 

[sound_cycle]

In my experience, room calibration helps up to a point,

@OP
digital room correction can compensate for all of the acoustical problems in a room, naah. It is step 3, after positioning and treatment. Some calibrations are not much more than a level match. Others are more sophisticated. None can do anything about a badly setup rig in a bare room.
I'll hum a bit of Shania Twain standing in the desert and rejecting a fake Brad Pitt to AVR based "corrections". Minidsp or an emotiva or a lyngdorf if you want to avoid having a PC in your chain.
The worm @tuff spoke about in #12 is a ginormous vindictive wallet devouring anaconda !

Ciao
GR

 

[liverpool_for_life]

[...]but about costlier speaker vs vfm speakers and its impact on acoustics uncontrolled room. Any idea on that perspective?

IMO, there's very little point to high-fidelity speakers in a room that's going to color what you hear significantly. Digital EQ does help, but my experience trying to tame room issues suggests that maximum value lies in getting bass to be as flat as you can in-room. Peaks are far worse than nulls in terms of audibly masking things in the mids and highs that you ought to be hearing.

 

[raghupb]

Get something your ears like and you can work with in your room/space.
Control costs and don't exceed budget.
If possible, choose popular brands, they have decent resale value.
If it's purely HT, balance out between small speakers and a good sub vs large speakers and average sub.
Assume you can't do any treatment and room sucks. Choose speakers that will be conducive to such a room.
1. Size
2. Placement
3. AVR power, room correction, expansion
4. Resale

If budget is tight, start with 3.1 leading to 5.2 or 7.2 or whatever.

Cheers,
Raghu

 

[swamytk]

Get something your ears like and you can work with in your room/space.
Control costs and don't exceed budget.
If possible, choose popular brands, they have decent resale value.
If it's purely HT, balance out between small speakers and a good sub vs large speakers and average sub.
Assume you can't do any treatment and room sucks. Choose speakers that will be conducive to such a room.
1. Size
2. Placement
3. AVR power, room correction, expansion
4. Resale

If budget is tight, start with 3.1 leading to 5.2 or 7.2 or whatever.

Cheers,
Raghu

You have summarised well! I am clear now. Thanks.