Low bass in music - Sub or no Sub ?

[Shivam]

It has been a few months since I heard a couple of Bach's organworks and felt something missing in my system. It seems that my system (AP active with bookshelves) plays sounds upto 60 Hz fairly well but almost nothing below it. In most of the music that I listen too, I don't miss the bass. However in some of the classical works (especially which ought to have some low bass but I don't hear it) I feel that I am missing something. In some of the popular music too I miss the mid-bass kick.

I was planning to upgrade the complete system but I don't have enough funds. So now my question - should I or should I not buy a subwoofer (or a pair of subwoofers) for music only application?

If I opt for subwoofer - should I buy a single sealed subwoofer and set the cross-over to somewhere around 60-70 Hz or should I buy two subwoofers and set each at 80-90 Hz and use one for left and one for right?

I am impressed by the specifications and online reviews of Tannoy TS-10, Wharfedale SW250 and Wharfedale powercube SPC-10. Any suggestions as to which among these is the best ?

I have also been told that for low bass, timbre of a speaker actually doesn't matter. So sub can be from any company regardless of the mains especially if the cross-over is set to below 80Hz. Is this true ?

 

[ranjeetrain]

For music two subs is better than one. But no sub is better than either.

How about you upgrade your speakers to something with a better bottom?

Or try to find if there are suck outs in your listening room at certain frequencies, giving you a hollow feeling in low bass?

 

[kanwar]

Extended Bass and Extended Treble range with Linearity is what I prefer always. My music preferences mandate the use of Subwoofer in order to make them enjoyable. Hence a sub is must in my case.

If your AP system cannot even play lower than 60hz and you want to hear the missing info under 60hz, install the Sub and enjoy the extended response.

 

[Shivam]

For music two subs is better than one. But no sub is better than either.

How about you upgrade your speakers to something with a better bottom?

Or try to find if there are suck outs in your listening room at certain frequencies, giving you a hollow feeling in low bass?

An upgrade of speakers is out of question at present due to finances. This is an active system and upgrading the speakers will require change of active cross-over and preamp, upgrade of all the four amps to support the speakers and obviously the speakers. Adding active sub (or subs) is a more affordable solution to me.

Extended Bass and Extended Treble range with Linearity is what I prefer always. My music preferences mandate the use of Subwoofer in order to make them enjoyable. Hence a sub is must in my case.

If your AP system cannot even play lower than 60hz and you want to hear the missing info under 60hz, install the Sub and enjoy the extended response.

Even I have been feeling the same and that is the reason why I started this thread. Sub seems like a must to me now.

I tested the system using a Denon test tones CD and the test tones below 60 Hz are very faintly audible upto about 50 Hz and below that they are not audible without changing the gain.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Why not start with just one sub?

 

[reignofchaos]

If you must have a sub for music, get a REL or Martin Logan. Most others don't work too well.

Edit: Also before you buy a subwoofer, please check the same speaker with another power amp and also with the same AP amp in a different room. Many a times there isn't enough bass because of lack of amplifier drive or because of bass suckout in a room.

Another issue could be the source - if the source is anemic in the bass department, you'd not get enough bass in the final output.

 

[Shivam]

Why not start with just one sub?

If I opt for the sub, I will initially get a single one and then later add another of the same model. The reason for two subs is that they are easier to place than a single sub. Another reason is a lot of bass information is also directional (80 Hz set by Lucas is too high for non-directional bass in my opinion.) I will use one sub each for each channel.

If you must have a sub for music, get a REL or Martin Logan. Most others don't work too well.

Edit: Also before you buy a subwoofer, please check the same speaker with another power amp and also with the same AP amp in a different room. Many a times there isn't enough bass because of lack of amplifier drive or because of bass suckout in a room.

Another issue could be the source - if the source is anemic in the bass department, you'd not get enough bass in the final output.

Any specific REL or Martin Logan model ? I can't afford very expensive subs.
The AP amps and speakers are made to work with each other perfectly. The room too has good acoustics. Sources that I use presently are - a NAD cd player, which actually has rich bass and a couple of network players with excellent sound quality.

 

[square_wave]

Subs are the best things to DIY and get extremely good results. I would stay away from budget subs from mainstream brands. They will just add low end presence but will lack speed and texture in the bass region. You will also have trouble integrating it.

You should talk to AP to help you make some subs which will integrate well with the AP actives.

 

[Audiophile1]

Every sub woofer brand has different models, different designs, from sealed enclosures to downward or forward loadings, bass roll off, phase, equalization level controls, direct speaker inputs, to choose from inorder for you to get the best accurate, seamless blend with your speakers. The source plays vital role, wether it's vinyls, cds whatever your listening to if the recorded material has good bass you will hear the low levels to certain extent, however adding a sub that matches well for two channel stereo music will definately be a plus point where you can compensate for the poor recordings for loss of low level bass frequencies. At low volume listening also, the sub woofer will give you all the deepest, tight, bass. I have different subs designs, different brands the synergies work well with the speakers.

 

[Fantastic]

Adding a sub most often will surely give you more weight to the low end especially with modern recordings. It might be a good idea to start with one sub. Often systems are set with the sub louder than required as the listener usually likes 'plenty of bass'. Setting the bass level properly is time consuming. It will take a while to get it right. That's why you should start with one , so that you get to grips with the issues in your listening room.
Remember that as the sub gets closer to the wall it's response will change. So positioning is very important.

There are a lot of experts who insist that you should have a separate sub for each channel ( stereo sub ). In fact Earl Geddes and others recommend more that two subs to even out the bass response in a room. Google it and read up the white paper on it.

Type of enclosure. If you want well controlled bass ( tight bass !) it might be advisable to use a sealed sub rather than a reflex sub.
Budget constraints ? You could buy ( locally) a good 12 inch sub ( driver) from Eminence ( Lab12) for about Rs15,000 or less. It can be used in a reasonably small sealed box and sound very good. You could design the enclosure to suite the response you want ( basically controlling the Q of the sub+enclosure). Will be far less expensive than buying a branded sub of equivalent performance. Of course you will need an electronic crossover and a sub amp.

If your main speakers are ducted , you could seal the duct giving you a second order response ( and rolling off earlier , like maybe 90 Hz ). This makes it very easy to design a matched electronic crossover to give you an accurate Linkwitz Riley response. There are plenty of crossover designs on the Net for use with a sub. Remember to pick something good because your main line level signal will now be passing through the new crossover.

Do some more research on your options. Your decision will involve more time and money for implementation. So it's good to know what each option entails before you get into it.
Cheers.

 

[manoj.p]

My take on Subwoofers

If you want to play organ music realistically, then you definitely need subwoofer(s). Organ music goes quite low upto 8 Hz. While you may not target subwoofers hitting that low, but your system should be able to play at least in twenties comfortably to hear the organ music.

Then comes the next part - Many people don't like subwoofers for music. We know that room affects the sound most, but it has more impact in low frequency region. As you go lower, the room dictates the outcome. This is irrespective of sub woofers. If you have any speaker going that low (with authority), the same problem would be existing. Rather, many people avoid that by using speakers that don't go that low.

If the intention is to play those low frequencies, subwoofer offers better choice than the speaker itself because then you can place the subwoofer where it sounds best. Front speakers do not have that luxury. With subwoofers, placement and integration with main speakers is the biggest criteria. Many people get one subwoofer, and place it in a corner to get max output from that sub. The whole crawling test is to find out the position where the sub is most loud. But such a placement also excites the room modes and causes uneven response. If you happen to be the best listening location, it may work but more often it results in boomy sound + nulls. Another thing is to make sure that at crossover frequency, the combined db level of front speakers + subwoofer is the same level. This ensures that both speakers and subwoofers are in alignment and the transition from speakers to sub is smooth. Otherwise, the sub may seem overpowering.

If I were to implement a setup for playing organ music, I would go for at least 15" sealed subwoofer. Better option would be go DIY and multiple subs.

 

[Santy]

My take, esp. when budget is a constraint. One higher quality sealed sub is much more preferable than two poorer quality subs. For instance, if you have 80k to spend, I would rather buy one sub than two for 40k each. I strongly suggest to start with one sealed sub and then decide further. In any case, let us know your budget so that FMs can advise accordingly.

 

[Shivam]

What should I look for in a subwoofer before buying?
Amplifier watts, low frequency response, weight, driver size ?

My budget is about INR 50K maximum.

 

[jls001]

Rythmik subs coming soon to Avenue Sound may be just what you need. They are servo controlled so apparently they are very fast and keep up with the best of mains (or so goes the blurb).

 

[manoj.p]

Then in that case, I would suggest DIY option. Look for drivers that have lowest FS and are meant for sealed subs. One iNuke DSP can easily drive 2 subwoofers. In subwoofers, you would not notice tone etc so much. But you would notice deep (low fs), smooth (multiple subs) and tight bass (sealed sub) right away. See what works better for. Before doing DIY, read the diy subs threads on diyaudio.com and avsforum.com. Keep in mind though, lot of people are after subs that go loud. Its easy to get lost in that race.

If you want to buy branded one, then look for lowest frequency response. See if you can import Rhythmik Servo sub diy kit. good site to start is Data-Bass They have measured responses of lots of subs.

 

[Fantastic]

You need to look for maximum spl capability. This can be determined from the amplifier power rating and the sensitivity of the speaker in the box. Since you want it to play low organ notes , you should not go for a driver less than 12 inches. 15 inches is great but needs much larger cabinets.
Remember that keeping sealed sub's near the wall lifts up the bass response significantly and you can get down to lower than 20Hz without the free air response of the driver going down that low.

While weight isn't an indication of performance, a good 12 inch subwoofer ( driver) is quite heavy and with a suitable cabinet it will become significantly heavier ...add a plate amp and it's even heavier !
For 50 K you could easily buy an Eminence driver, power amp and build a cabinet. Unlikely that you can get an equivalent sub for that price. BUT, life is full of surprises. Do check out the price of ready made sub's so that you are making an "informed" decision ! I generally wouldn't touch a sub that is easy to carry around ! They need to be "grounded" well. Light cabinets vibrate and this can colour the sound.

The power amp rating . With a driver like the Eminence you could use anything from a 100 to a 400 watt amp. All depends on how loud you want it to go. 100 watts would go quite loud but maybe not partying levels ! Ebay has many power amps for subs !

Maybe 50K will get you a good stereo sub if you build it yourself ? But like I said earlier. Research it well and take notes. Keeping it all in the head isn't a good idea ! I'd say that you can spend maybe a couple of months before deciding what to do . You'd have enough information to advice others !

You need to remember that this is engineering. Engineering is all about tradeoff's to get something close to what you want within the constraints that you will have, like cost, size ,performance etc.! So you can say, there is no 'ideal solution' but an ' acceptable one' !

 

[shriharsha.p]

If the intention is to play those low frequencies, subwoofer offers better choice than the speaker itself because then you can place the subwoofer where it sounds best. Front speakers do not have that luxury. With subwoofers, placement and integration with main speakers is the biggest criteria. Many people get one subwoofer, and place it in a corner to get max output from that sub.

Based on one of the posts above, I had a related question. If you are starting off with a tower based 2.1 or 3.1 system, does it really matter how low your floorstanders can go since you would anyays be using a subwoofer? I had this doubt because I was reading up literature on crossover settings and most recommend setting it in the 60-80 hz range. So if you are limiting your floorstanders to a threshold of say 70hz and the rest is handled by a subwoofer, do we really need to pay attention to how low a floorstander can go? Many speakers quote a frequnce response of say 35hz-20khz at +/-3db but others quote say 54hz-30khz at +/-2db. Are the latter really out of breath in the lower frequencies and does this really matter when paired with a subwoofer?

Once again, my apologies if I have derailed this thread.

Harsha

 

[Tanoj]

Hi Shivam,

I use AP Bookshelf speakers, and it gives nice bass response, could you please share the specs of your speakers and also upload pics or weblink showing the speakers

Also what is the size of the Driver ?, and what kind of driver is it ?

Regards

Tanoj

 

[Fantastic]

.......frequency response of say 35hz-20khz at +/-3db but others quote say 54hz-30khz at +/-2db. Are the latter really out of breath in the lower frequencies.........

Depends on the enclosure, if it is sealed or ducted. If the 35Hz unit is a reflex unit and the 54 hz a sealed unit, the 54 Hz unit will appear to go deeper. This is because the reflex unit rolls off the LF very fast ( 24db/oct) and the sealed unit rolls off only at 12 db/octave.

 

[soulforged]

IMHO for 2-channel music, getting the sub to match the speed is most important. Timbre and tonality comes a distant second...Like most of pointed above, 2 subs are better than one...

Finding the right sub to suit your needs is usually tougher and more expensive than looking at a speaker with better bass response. My money would go to trying a different speaker than going for a sub...