Need Bass

[Bhoot]

This post starts with a bit of a story. If you want to skip kindly start from BOLD CURRENT EQUIPMENT
Well a few words about myself. I started my home theater setup from a Preowned 2004 model onkyo 7.1 speakers for a steal. The woofer didn’t sound that great so I picked up a paradigm woofer (8 inch paradigm) with Onkyo N727 in 2014.
After that I shifted houses and upgraded system bit by bit, so the differences though as subtle and ignored by the wife, happened.
Fast forward 2020, I have managed to rake up a few good components. They might be a little underperforming but I need the acceptance of the wife and the wow factor for me. We live in an apartment with a rectangular 23x13x10 dedicated room with 2 rows of recliners. Though I wished for the Elac FS or the BS or a combo the wife disagreed coz of the size. She wanted something sleek and out of the way. So came the kef T205 with a pair of t101 for sb and a pair of Taga in ceiling for a setup of 7.1.2 with Yamaha A3070. I always wanted a big CinemaScope screen as dessert, so I did what any brave man would’ve done. Got the Epson5040ub and 133” SI Dlack Diamond 1.4 (wife wouldn’t let me color the room dark and the marble on the floor is white). I did have a friend hand me a Klipsch 10 inch subwoofer as well.

CURRENT BUILD
SI BLACK DIAMOND 1.4 /2.35:1 /133’
EPSON 5040UB
YAMAHA A3070
KEF 301x3 as front sound stage
KEF 101x4 as surround and back surround
Taga x2 in ceiling ( forget the name and wattage but I think 100w)
KEF T2 sub in front and right 1/3rd of the room
Klipsch Reference 10” on the back left corner of the room
ROOM 23X13X10
2 rows of seating
Front row recliners starting at about 15’ full recline takes the head to about 17’-18’
Back row recliners (barely used) are up against the wall
MLP is about 17 feet and offset to the left by about a foot.
Flooring is White Marble.
Right wall is all glass.
Left wall has first 8 feet dry wall then a gap and then 8 feet of concrete/ solid wall
Ceiling is Solid concrete

I hope I’ve given an over detailed description of the room, but I do want to show my commitment to the problem at hand. So the 2 subs aren’t really making it rumble. I guess they are underpowered for the room and I just want to get a confirmation about the same. Obviously from the subwoofers in the market one subwoofer brand stands out. It’s probably over discussed and hence I want to get some fact checks.
Honestly I’m from a country where the SVS is sold at a premium. The PB1000 is about Rs70,000 and PB2000 is Rs1,20,000. I’m sure the return policy that’s offered in the US also won’t apply. I also believe the PB2000 pro just hit the market in the states, supposedly with an upgrade. It’s currently unavailable (not priced either) in India and I could wait if it’s really worth it. The pricing till now has shown a trend of 2x US prices so I’m guessing it’ll be about 1,30,000.

I’d like to know when SVS claims pb2000 pro has 550w rms and 1500 peak is it really going to sound x times better (louder and chest thumping) than the Klipsch (300w peak)?
WHich of the following do you suggest I buy?
Pair of PB 1000
1 PB 2000
Wait for the pb2000 pro
A friend suggested Polk dsw 550 @ Rs77,000 a pair.

If you ask I can probably only afford one of the PB2000 and I’ll have to wait for a while (2021 maybe) to buy a second 2000 (pro or old). I’m not very impressed with the Polk since the frequency response on them is 30-125. I like to run the kefs with a 200hz crossover and subs set to max (lfe).

Knowing everything that I’ve told you I need your expert comments and suggestions for getting better low frequencies.

 

[Love4sound]

You should definitely plan duals for a smooth and even bass. Duals will also help in giving you a tight and chest thumping bass you crave for. Pb 2000 is a very good choice. Also in that price list you have rythmik and XTZ. And yes you should avoid the polk.

 

[elangoas]

So the 2 subs aren’t really making it rumble. I guess they are underpowered for the room and I just want to get a confirmation about the same.

Could be due to position of subwoofers in the room.. and there is large opening in the middle of the room, which may cause loss of sound pressure level in the room..

If you are willing to try, try placing both the subs behind the listening position at room corners.. This will bring both the subs closer to listening positions and might help bass response.. Try to calibrate when you re-position the subwoofers , as it will change the subwoofer response in the room..

 

[arunkvivek]

Given that you have a dedicated room, you should go for multiple subs for even response. If you time & a good carpenter who would listen to you, you can have excellent results from DIY for less cost. Until recently, I was sceptical abt DIY subs paired with pro amps until I finished my H-frame subs build (four 15 inch SW). I can immediately see the flexibility of a pro amp with DSP capabilities. This is better than SW with plate amplifier due to oodles of headroom for SPL.
That apart, are you sure of your SW placement? Irrespective of what subs you have, you are likely to have positions with null bass. Multiple SWs alleviate the cancellation better. It might be good to have SW moved around to find a sweet spot. Pls start from the rear wall and try to locate.

 

[Nitin K]

One thing for sure is with that room size you will require multiple ported subwoofers & a power amp to support the surrounds. I don't know about the Klipsh but a single PC 2000 which I am using has similar specs to the PB 2000. In a room size of 14 feet X 11 feet X 11 feet. It effortlessly fills the room with bass with the subwoofers gain at 12 o clock position. I don't blast the volume but I do feel the chest thump & sometimes only vibrations while playing movies with good sfx recording ( My chest thump capacity may vary with yours in case if you are looking for more )
The new 2000 pro series would be worth waiting as the app features combined with the port tuning options offers a lot but am skeptical about the pricing in India which is ridiculous & you may get other brands which are as good & better VFM as mentioned by Love4sound. One thing worth mentioning is that the SVS customer feedback & service is top class.
How about considering the Rythmik 15 inch subwoofer which may be available at a lesser rate & is really good VFM. You can buy another one later when your budget permits. Other option as suggested by Arun is to go the DIY route if there is someone reliable who makes good stuff.

 

[liverpool_for_life]

So the 2 subs aren’t really making it rumble. I guess they are underpowered for the room and I just want to get a confirmation about the same.

Your problem is much the same as that for those of us that live here (the concrete). You're going to struggle to get much tactile feel regardless of the subs you put in that room. A suspended wooden floor is probably your best bet.

HST, I'd suggest you try moving your front sub to one of the corners (you need as much help from the room as you can get).

SVS subs are decent, but they don't represent the best value for money in India, IMO. Rythmik may be worth looking at.

 

[devdutta]

Go for SVS stay away from polks for subwoofer

 

[devdutta]

prefer dual for smoother bass reproduction

 

[Bhoot]

Thank you all for the quick replies. With the amount of knowledge being showered here, I know I’m on the right platform. Also it’s much better than other forums since I do not have to make people understand how much more expensive popular brands are in India.

~snip~

Yes. Dual is my endgame and I do understand the importance. The XTZ and Rythmik are sold locally in India? I did see a few websites selling them but then a lot of times these are pure imports and lack the 220v capacity. Also could you guide me to a place where they have been discussed at length, so I can read about the short comings of all that I’m choosing. Best would be a head to head comparison of svs vs the others.

~snip~

I do agree it’s the position, since the bass response is better at other parts of the room. I say better because it’s still not impressive. Maybe I’m spoilt for choices and maybe my expectations are wrong, but then the subs I’ve got aren’t too heavy to begin with. Also they offer only phases of 0 and 180. Won’t the phase change allow me to not move the woofer by a lot and maybe some East will help remove the lows?

~snip~

Two things that has kept me that route are A) finding a smart (and not over smart) carpenter B) making sure I don’t do it wrong.
the oversmart carpenter doesnt understand what I need and thinks he can do it better than whatever I tell him, coz according to him, he has more experience in wood than I do (no pun intended).
secondly if done incorrectly I’ll never be able to forgive myself. I know a friend who bought real high end drivers and made cabinders in CAD and finally the carpenter took 2 months to replicate it on wood. In the mean time my friend had to run atleast twice a week and correct him where he was wrong. In today’s life and age, it would be impractical for me. Wrong attitude I know but I know my limitations.

~snip~

I have also read about the PC 2000 and it’s the same driver nd amp as the pb2000 with a bottom tiring position. The shape is different and the port is on the back side. So that is what I wanted to ask. My T2 is 250w RMS and Klipsch is 300w RMS (peaks). So will 2 pb 2000 pro with a total RMS of 3000w between them be actually that much louder?

~snip~

I agree the SVS is good (atleast from what I’ve read) but the price factor is keeping me away from it.

 

[Love4sound]

Yes xtz and rythmik are available at 230 volts. I myself use a xtz sub and it is very good

 

[Bhoot]

Yes xtz and rythmik are available at 230 volts. I myself use a xtz sub and it is very good

I read your thread about the 10.17/12.17. Any reviews on the xtz cinema 1x12 sub?
The XTZ 12.17 edge does look promising. Going to find a distributor to audition and if possible 'borrow' it for home trial.

 

[Love4sound]

I read your thread about the 10.17/12.17. Any reviews on the xtz cinema 1x12 sub?
The XTZ 12.17 edge does look promising. Going to find a distributor to audition and if possible 'borrow' it for home trial.

The cinema should be good no doubt. I haven’t heard the sub and not sure if any dealers will have it for demo. The .17 std and edge variants should be available for demo in metros

 

[Bhoot]

Just to recap if I have everything in order.
PB1000 can be compared with the XTZ 10.17
PB2000 with XTZ 12.17
PB13 Ultra with Rythmik FV15HP
If this is the case it’s a 20% or so price reduction which obviously makes me happy
Any places people can suggest for auditioning in Mumbai for the above listed woofers?

 

[Nitin K]

have also read about the PC 2000 and it’s the same driver nd amp as the pb2000 with a bottom tiring position. The shape is different and the port is on the back side. So that is what I wanted to ask. My T2 is 250w RMS and Klipsch is 300w RMS (peaks). So will 2 pb 2000 pro with a total RMS of 3000w between them be actually that much louder?



With respect to your above query, the PB 2000 pro is 550 watts rms & 1500 watts peak. It will occasionally touch that peak & that too for a brief time depending on the volume level & the signal it receives if I am not mistaken. 2 PB 2000's will surely sound louder & smoother reducing bass nulls. Besides you will be adding a crossover for your fronts & the subwoofer below which only the subwoofer will take over for bass with an overlap with your fronts.
You can audition Rythmik at Peddar road in Mumbai & contact person is Mr. Ashish( his email & no. is at the top of the website)

https://shop.avenuesound.in/product-category/home-theater-and-audio/home-speakers/home-subwoofers/powered-subwoofers1/page/3/

The Rythmik Audio FV15HP 15 inch Home Subwoofer - 600 watts RMS model is a highly acclaimed one. Pls ask him for advice since he may be able to guide you better. In case you need to hear the PC 2000 you can PM me.

 

[RajithKumar]

This post starts with a bit of a story. If you want to skip kindly start from BOLD CURRENT EQUIPMENT
Well a few words about myself. I started my home theater setup from a Preowned 2004 model onkyo 7.1 speakers for a steal. The woofer didn’t sound that great so I picked up a paradigm woofer (8 inch paradigm) with Onkyo N727 in 2014.
After that I shifted houses and upgraded system bit by bit, so the differences though as subtle and ignored by the wife, happened.
Fast forward 2020, I have managed to rake up a few good components. They might be a little underperforming but I need the acceptance of the wife and the wow factor for me. We live in an apartment with a rectangular 23x13x10 dedicated room with 2 rows of recliners. Though I wished for the Elac FS or the BS or a combo the wife disagreed coz of the size. She wanted something sleek and out of the way. So came the kef T205 with a pair of t101 for sb and a pair of Taga in ceiling for a setup of 7.1.2 with Yamaha A3070. I always wanted a big CinemaScope screen as dessert, so I did what any brave man would’ve done. Got the Epson5040ub and 133” SI Dlack Diamond 1.4 (wife wouldn’t let me color the room dark and the marble on the floor is white). I did have a friend hand me a Klipsch 10 inch subwoofer as well.

CURRENT BUILD
SI BLACK DIAMOND 1.4 /2.35:1 /133’
EPSON 5040UB
YAMAHA A3070
KEF 301x3 as front sound stage
KEF 101x4 as surround and back surround
Taga x2 in ceiling ( forget the name and wattage but I think 100w)
KEF T2 sub in front and right 1/3rd of the room
Klipsch Reference 10” on the back left corner of the room
ROOM 23X13X10
2 rows of seating
Front row recliners starting at about 15’ full recline takes the head to about 17’-18’
Back row recliners (barely used) are up against the wall
MLP is about 17 feet and offset to the left by about a foot.
Flooring is White Marble.
Right wall is all glass.
Left wall has first 8 feet dry wall then a gap and then 8 feet of concrete/ solid wall
Ceiling is Solid concrete

I hope I’ve given an over detailed description of the room, but I do want to show my commitment to the problem at hand. So the 2 subs aren’t really making it rumble. I guess they are underpowered for the room and I just want to get a confirmation about the same. Obviously from the subwoofers in the market one subwoofer brand stands out. It’s probably over discussed and hence I want to get some fact checks.
Honestly I’m from a country where the SVS is sold at a premium. The PB1000 is about Rs70,000 and PB2000 is Rs1,20,000. I’m sure the return policy that’s offered in the US also won’t apply. I also believe the PB2000 pro just hit the market in the states, supposedly with an upgrade. It’s currently unavailable (not priced either) in India and I could wait if it’s really worth it. The pricing till now has shown a trend of 2x US prices so I’m guessing it’ll be about 1,30,000.

I’d like to know when SVS claims pb2000 pro has 550w rms and 1500 peak is it really going to sound x times better (louder and chest thumping) than the Klipsch (300w peak)?
WHich of the following do you suggest I buy?
Pair of PB 1000
1 PB 2000
Wait for the pb2000 pro
A friend suggested Polk dsw 550 @ Rs77,000 a pair.

If you ask I can probably only afford one of the PB2000 and I’ll have to wait for a while (2021 maybe) to buy a second 2000 (pro or old). I’m not very impressed with the Polk since the frequency response on them is 30-125. I like to run the kefs with a 200hz crossover and subs set to max (lfe).

Knowing everything that I’ve told you I need your expert comments and suggestions for getting better low frequencies.

Hi,
Before upgrading new subs ,Try placing subs in the corner (all 4 corners - either front two or diagonally opposite corners can be tried) which will add room gain .
Try to align the subs with phase control and delays which may increase the positive summation of response.Then try the YPAO Room calibration.
Try 120 hz crossover also which is generally recommended.
Regarding upgradation ,if u looking for SVS ,try from pb2000 range onwards..
The other subs suggested by FMs such Rhythmik /XTZ /PSA also can be tried,depending upon your budget.

 

[elangoas]

I do agree it’s the position, since the bass response is better at other parts of the room. I say better because it’s still not impressive. Maybe I’m spoilt for choices and maybe my expectations are wrong, but then the subs I’ve got aren’t too heavy to begin with. Also they offer only phases of 0 and 180. Won’t the phase change allow me to not move the woofer by a lot and maybe some East will help remove the lows?

I have no experience with delay/phase adjustment on the sub.. But, have read at AVS forums that by using phase adjustment you are adding more delay to the subs than it was calibrated, and using phase adjustment doesn't shift the delay for the entire range of freq but only partly..

I think you should try adjusting phase on one of the subs and see if it improves the feel of bass.. if it still doesn't, then the only choice is to move the subs around and settle for a place where it sounds better for you..

I think you should try subs at room corners behind the LP, as it would be closer to LP also.. Both subs at room corners should boost the maximum gain due to closer by room boundaries and then use YPAO to cut/adjust the spike wherever necessary..

 

[Bhoot]

Finally called many people and the final prices are
SVS PB2000 90,000/
RYTHMIK FV15HP 1,50,000/
XTZ I'm yet to get confirmation/find distributors in Bom.
The 2 above are also available for auditioning. Rythmik have a near 2 month waiting period coz they only order after you pay 60% and take 40% after you take delivery.
SVS are available widely at the store I talked to.
These prices are through, through old contacts. Prices may vary in the future.
Is the rythmik with a price of 60k extra still worth it.
I could theoretically own 3 pb2000 for the cost of 2 Rythmik

 

[Nitin K]

On the Avenue sound website the price of RYTHMIK FV15HP is approx 1,39,000/-. On the SVS thread , FM
argentum246 is selling a 1.5 years used PB 2000 in good condition in case if you are interested.

 

[Love4sound]

Finally called many people and the final prices are
SVS PB2000 90,000/
RYTHMIK FV15HP 1,50,000/
XTZ I'm yet to get confirmation/find distributors in Bom.
The 2 above are also available for auditioning. Rythmik have a near 2 month waiting period coz they only order after you pay 60% and take 40% after you take delivery.
SVS are available widely at the store I talked to.
These prices are through, through old contacts. Prices may vary in the future.
Is the rythmik with a price of 60k extra still worth it.
I could theoretically own 3 pb2000 for the cost of 2 Rythmik

Of all the subs listed the rythmik is a 15 inch while others are 12 inch. So definitely it should be better. But if you are going duals the pb 2000 should be good enough. xtz standard versions 10.17 has a mrp of 77.9k,12.17 92.4k, edge variants 10.17 mrp is 98.8k and 12.17 mrp 1.13L. You can very well go for dual pb 2000 which is VFM with 5 years warranty.

 

[abhi33]

On the Avenue sound website the price of RYTHMIK FV15HP is approx 1,39,000/-. On the SVS thread , FM
argentum246 is selling a 1.5 years used PB 2000 in good condition in case if you are interested.

Avenue Sound pricing is exclusive of GST. Once you select and move to cart, total Price+GST will be displayed.