Newly acquired Harbeth SHL5 in my setup - singing but not performing?????

[eddie_fox]

Hi all,
My long search for speakers finally concluded yesterday. After months of more secondary research than I did for my PhD, hours and days spent on online forums reading opinions from every Tom, D and H, budget calculations and recalculations and numerous visits to audition rooms all over Bangalore, a few in Delhi and Mumbai as well, lugging along my little Rega amp and my supportive (but mildly annoyed), I finally bit the bullet and decided. Then began the adventure (and stress) of arranging safe shipping.

Anyway, eventually, after all the trouble (self-inflicted, as my wife reminds me) I had the beauties in my living room, all set up, ready to sing and take me on the aerial musical journey over lush green classical meadows, warm jazz rivulets, classic rock volcanos and bluesy snow clad hillocks. I embarked on this magic carpet and took off. Alas, the carpet ride was not as imagined. It gave me glimpses of the sights and moments of sheer joy, but overall was bumpy, windy and turbulent. There were times when I wanted to slow down, change altitude, close my eyes and even jump off the carpet. Eventually, I felt a wee bit let down and unable to understand the reasons for this, began wondering if the magic carpet was not for me at all.

I shall now stop the metaphors and talk normal. As you may have ascertained from the last para, the SHL5s were singing and were functional, but certainly not at their optimal best. I will try and explain what I found askew, though I may not be able to describe using technical terms.

To start, my chain was as follows: Technics 1200 TT Ortofon OM20 cart some interconnects changed by the previous owner of the TT in UK (apparently decent ones) Rega Brio-r integrated amp - QED Profile Silver 12 Bi-Wire. I am also using a very basic wireless dac (Nuforce Air Dac). I suspect somewhere in here lies the problem

My living room is approximately 14 feet wide and 22 feet long. The speaker position can be seen in the pictures below. I placed them approximately 2.2 feet from the front wall and 1.4 feet from the side walls, slightly towed in. The listening position was in the center approximately 8 feet away.

With this, I started playing some of my favorite tracks. These were my impressions:
1. Tchaikovsky - Piano Concerto 1 in B Flat Minor (FLAC played through the Dac) Starting off with my favorite classical piece, I love the opening section with sweeping violins, punchy trumpet hits and crystal piano notes. The Harbeths played it with fair aplomb, but the piano notes were not as transparent as I have heard them in say the Blumenhofers. The soundstage was a little lacking in width. The symphony behind the piano became a little muddled and noisy when I cranked up the volume.
2. Annie Lennox - I put a spell on you (Flac + Dac) Annie Lennoxs voice was a little harsh and not airy. The bass was not as tight as I have heard them on other speakers
3. Dave Brubeck - Take Five (Flac + Dac) Both the saxophone and piano did not have any force and the imaging was not as precise as I have heard this track on a number of setups and a number of times and some speakers (much lower priced) made the song come alive, as if it was a live performance (for eg Canton, PMC). You can hear the air being pushed from the instruments, which was not there this time
4. Dire Straits Wild West End (Vinyl) I could hear pops and crackle I had never heard before, Mark Knopfler sounded smooth, but a little too smooth, if you ask me. There was no sparkle
5. Eddie Vader No Ceiling (Flac+Dac) and Miles Davis - Tune up I felt that the rhythm in both these different genre songs was a bit dragged down. It felt as if the beats were just a little off (slow)
Well, there were many more tracks and more comments, but to sum it up, I felt that the setip with the new speakers was boomy (I moved the speakers out, both front and sides, a little, and it got better), lower end was there in abundance but not tight and punchy, a bit loose. The mids were not projected out and forceful, it was slightly subdued and meek. The treble was not as transparent or pronounced as I expected. All in all, it was all a bit lacking in the wow factor. Worse, as the lower listening was not very enjoyable, I tried to get a bit more juice into the speakers but cranking up the volume on the amp to 12 or over, the music got loud but not pleasant loud, just screechy and shouting.
So, I am now beginning to wonder if I will ever ride the magic carpet or in fact, if there is one. This quest for the perfect sound is actually making me more sensitive to the flaws and I am beginning to feel that basic joy of listening to and enjoying good music is taking a backseat.
However, please let me know what the problem could be in my setup, based on your interpretation of my descriptions of the issues. Any suggestions (preferably not costing much) will be appreciated and duly tested. All advice, even if it is a knock on the head, is welcome. Please tell me what I should try to join the lucky few of you already on the carpet.

P.S I already know some of my components in the chain, especially the amp and dac, are not in the same league as the speakers. I will have to upgrade them, but that will take a while. Please suggest matching amplifier though. I will take the plunge if all the evidence points to amp change, as I suspect they may.

Also this makes me wonder if the Harbeth philosophy of '..any amp with reasonable power should work...' has any merit. The Rega Brio-r with rave reviews and a decent 55WPC at 8ohms, I thought should work well, but I am not sure anymore.

 

[aashish351]

Hi eddie,

Thoroughly enjoyed reading opening statement! Anyway, could I request you to post the images of the rest of your room (standing near the av rack with your back towards it)?

Try a few small tweaks till then: roll up two thin cotton mattress and rest one each on both corners behind the speakers. You could use a pile of pillows or cushions. Put a thick rug on the floor in front of the speakers and between the listening chair. Lastly, if you have a 4" foam type mattress, stand it right behind your listening chair such that it somewhat blocks your living room's other area (need not be wall to wall obviously, just behind your listening chair).

P.S.: I know this is your living room, but this is just a trial to identify the problem. And, I am suggesting this based on very positive results in my own 15ft by 25ft listening room with the listening chair at 12ft from front wall. I never removed those mattresses!

 

[sound_cycle]

My long search for speakers finally concluded yesterday<snip>arranging safe shipping<snip>Alas, the carpet ride was not as imagined
<snip>
My living room is approximately 14 feet wide and 22 feet long. The speaker position can be seen in the pictures below. I placed them approximately 2.2 feet from the front wall and 1.4 feet from the side walls, slightly towed in. The listening position was in the center approximately 8 feet away.
<snip>The Rega Brio-r with rave reviews and a decent 55WPC at 8ohms, I thought should work well, but I am not sure anymore.

Congrats on the speakers. How did you get them across, Gati ?

I've been in exactly your shoes and dimension wise your room. I am summarizing my learning below.

The sad truth is that you are never going to get the stereo listening you seek in that room, as it is. Pillows and carpets will not make it happen.

You need to have an echo free 15 ms and from the pic / description that will not be realized. The room will boom and color the music.

The only solution is treatment and DRC.

The former can be DIY and inexpensive and the latter can be auditioned in your room with some of the solutions. Positioning is not mitigation enough. The good news, it works, is mostly inobtrusive, and you will get reasonably close to the imaging and neutral sound you seek. [edit: The DAC matters too]

For a start. Try the audio beat method for positioning, see if you get the LEDR tracks to arc and move sideways smoothly. If they do your answer lies elsewhere, ie. equipment and not room, I'm certain (as much as is possible from looking at one pic) that it is the room.

ciao
gr

 

[eddie_fox]

Hi eddie,

Thoroughly enjoyed reading opening statement! Anyway, could I request you to post the images of the rest of your room (standing near the av rack with your back towards it)?

Try a few small tweaks till then: roll up two thin cotton mattress and rest one each on both corners behind the speakers. You could use a pile of pillows or cushions. Put a thick rug on the floor in front of the speakers and between the listening chair. Lastly, if you have a 4" foam type mattress, stand it right behind your listening chair such that it somewhat blocks your living room's other area (need not be wall to wall obviously, just behind your listening chair).

P.S.: I know this is your living room, but this is just a trial to identify the problem. And, I am suggesting this based on very positive results in my own 15ft by 25ft listening room with the listening chair at 12ft from front wall. I never removed those mattresses!

Hi Aashish,

Thanks for the tips, I will try them. As you said, this being the living room, the aesthetics would be slightly affected with your suggestions , so maybe to identify the issue, I will give it a go.
I will post the snaps of the complete room in a bit. Ta!

EF

Congrats on the speakers. How did you get them across, Gati ?


For a start. Try the audio beat method for positioning, see if you get the LEDR tracks to arc and move sideways smoothly. If they do your answer lies elsewhere, ie. equipment and not room, I'm certain (as much as is possible from looking at one pic) that it is the room.

ciao
gr

Hi GR,

I paid Fedex the shipping and also insured the product for its used value. Gati refused saying they don't deal with electronics anymore and DTDC quoted a ridiculous price. So, Fedex got the assignment.
Also, the seller did a good job with the packaging and I used surface transport, only because air was more expensive but without any special safety or handling measures. So it was only that it was 1 day quicker. So chose road.

Thanks for the link, I will try it out.

Regards,
EF

 

[skdas]

eddie_fox
Congratulation !

 

[square_wave]

I have only one extensive listening experience with the SHL5s. This was at the Bangalore dealers home. I went for a 2 hr listening session but ended up doing a 5 hour one. I think the model was the plus but I guess the original is extremely popular and will not be far behind.

These speakers if setup well in a relatively damped room ( a good spread of heavy sofas, bookshelves, carpets, curtains ) with the right level of associated gear can transport you into magical land and make you forget about time. You really need to look into those.

You might want to place the speakers well into the room because your room is slightly longish. 22 X 14. But keep the distance from the side wall different from the behind one. Once this is done, sit in your listening chair and ask someone to slide a mirror on the wall by the side of the speakers. Mark the place on the wall where you see the tweeters in the mirror. This is your first reflection point. Treat this area with something...do some r&d on this.

Having speakers firing into a longish room with absolutely no treatment on the side walls or carpets is a recipe for harsh sound.

 

[krell]

If u have a chance try vintage sansui au series integrated amps like au717,517.no looking back.thats one of the reason people still paying top dollars for vintage sansui,specially fully refurbished.its my small advice came frm experience.

 

[Orko]

It's almost certainly the room.I would start with the walls and corners. As square_wave suggested, try pulling the speakers out further into the room. Does that make the bass tighter?
I've found that Harbeths seem to do better with more room to the sides. I would try setting them up against the longer wall, just to see I understand it may not be practical but it will give some idea as to what could be happening. For instance, it would put the sidewalls at a further distance and I would check if that improves the mids and highs.
I don't envy you. Taming a room is a long, lonely road. I have tried multiple orientations in my room, trying the speakers against every wall, even diagonally I'm now on the 4th orientation, hopefully the last and each of them have been learning experiences. Enjoy the struggle, I guess :~)
PS: I had some thick acoustic panels made (4ft x 3ft x 8in) to experiment with. In one orientation, putting one each in the corners helped me a lot in getting a tighter bass. Maybe you could try as well? I have a couple of them surplus to my needs.

 

[sidvee]

As some others Fm's alluded to - it is the room - that is causing your issues. IMO the room (i.e acoustics) is the biggest factor that determines how your speaker will sound - not the source, the amplification, cables, speaker stands etc. - yes they will play a role but at a much smaller level. I used to own these speakers - and in my well treated albeit much smaller room - none of the ills you mentioned manifested themselves. I have also heard these speakers in the Indian dealer's room in Bangalore - let me tell you his room was not formally treated - and my room sounded significantly better.
When placed in a properly treated room these speakers will project a sound image that defies physics - there will be no connection to the cabinets and where the sound is emanating from, and I have heard these speakers in the Singapore dealers room - I kid you not the soundstage depth was atleast 8' behind the speakers whereas the speakers were pulled out perhaps 3.5' out from the rear wall.
Of-course these have their limitations - they are warm, definitely not very revealing and though they have those big drivers they are limited in low bass.
So within the above limitations, consider these room treatment options.
1. The wall behind the speaker - see if you can get bass absorption panels against the corners (i.e atleast 6" thick acoustic panels that are 4' high and 2' wide straddling the corners) and some type of diffusers on the window with the blue curtain. GIK has some good options on diffusers/absorbers - I bought 2 diffusers recently that are working great and the dealer is local to Bangalore.
2. As suggested by square wave find the first reflection point on the side walls and treat with diffuser/absorber - you will have to experiment. I prefer diffusers there - you get more pinpoint imaging.
3. Put a thick carpet at the first reflection on the floor - inline with the side walls.
4. See if you can cover that big panel with a thick fabric while listening to music.
5. Pull the speaker out 3-4 ' from the rear and at-least 2 ' from the side wall. Make sure the distance from rear and side are not multiples or equal to each other.
This will be a beginning to get the best sound from your SHL5.
You have invested a big amount of money in the speakers, consider a fraction of that for room treatment - the return you will get will be significantly huge.
Lastly if you cannot treat the room with physical acoustic treatments because it is a common room, then consider 1) Software based treatment 2) Or resonance based room treatments.
Cheers,
Sid

 

[eddie_fox]

I will most definitely start looking at room treatment options. Just for further reference, here are some snaps of the whole room:

 

[Decadent_Spectre]

Get your hands on some DSP.

Add the following -

4KHz High Shelf 0.71 +2db

1KHz/1.25KHz PEQ +4db 7.1 (try -4db too)

50Hz PEQ -3db 3.2

40Hz 24db/oct BW HPF

250Hz PEQ -5db 7.1

100Hz PEQ +2db 6.3

4.5KHz PEQ -1db 7.1

6.5KHZ PEQ -2/4db 7.1

These are all approximates I have tried to "guesstimate" based on your impressions.

Obtaining a mic and measuring will provide better data to understand your perceptions to guide you accordingly.

Also try to make sure that your speakers are aligned in time, you'd need a mic for this and DSP to add delay and/or change phase.

Room treatments are necessary but measuring first will help guide you towards the appropriate treatment.

Just IMO...

 

[sidvee]

Based on your recent photos - you definitely have to treat your room. There are a lot of reflective/hard surfaces. Defer your Amp/DAC upgrades. IMO I would concentrate on the room first. After you have that in control you can look at upgrades.

Cheers,
Sid

 

[krell]

Hi,my friend (uk citizen) running his SHL5plus running with his vintage sansui prepower and they sound excellent,he tried them with my au717 on loan and he bifinally purchased ba series(i refused to sell my 717).may be that vintage sansui sync well with slh5plus.just an idea

 

[mowgli80]

I can easily relate to what you are hearing /feeling right now. The Harbeths are what I like to call shock and awe speakers. Upgrading from Monitor Audio RX6, Harbeth initially was a big shock for me. It was a whole different presentation compared to what I was used to with forward and brighter MAs. Once my ears got accustomed to this new style of presentation, I was in awe of them. I see you owned KEFs earlier which are bright and forward like MAs. Give yourself some time to get used to the new sound. You will start enjoying them .

I concur with every word Sidvee said earlier. I heard them in his well treated room and the results were jaw dropping. I had already paid for and booked other speakers and overnight switched my allegience to Harbeths after listening to them . Even in my untreated living room, the soundstaging was amazing and though it lacks somewhat in dynamics, it makes up for it musicality. Even metal sounds musical through them and I enjoyed quite a few long sessions of hard rock with them without any fatigue which just was not possible with MAs.

As other folks have suggested, room treatment should be high on your list. Coming to your equipment, I would suggest a gradual upgrade over a period of time. I think a dac upgrade would give maximum bang for buck. You should be able to get decent performance dacs for 35K-40K. Based on my experience with these speakers and the limited dacs I have heard, I feel ESS Sabre dacs would be the right fit as they have slight prominence for higher frequencies. I had been eyeing the Gustard X20 for these for sometime. For the amp, I feel Naim would pair very well with the Harbeths. I don't know how the Rega sounds but given they were driving KEF earlier, I can imagine them being on the warmer side and may not suit the already warm Harbeths. There are quite a few far more experienced FMs in this forum who can give other pointers.

 

[jls001]

Others have advised on treatment and placement.

A quick and dirty placement guide you can try:

1. Measure your room width once more even if you've done so. Note that down, preferably in millimetres as it's easier to calculate and understand fractions than inches.
2. For distance of speakers from front wall (wall behind your audio rack), place it at 0.447 times your room width. For example, your room width 14' x 12" x 25.4 mm = 4267.2 mm. 0.447 times is 1907.43 mm. Round that off to 1907. This is the distance from front wall to the center of your drivers (assuming all drivers are in vertical line without any driver being offset from the vertical center of the front baffle). Position both speakers at this distance from front wall. For the time being, let both speakers fire straight without toe in.
3. For distance of speakers from side wall, the Cardas recommended distance is 0.276 times the room width. I have tried this distance and it simply doesn't work for me as the speakers become too close. So instead I try to maintain a distance of at least one and half feet from side wall to center of drivers. You could try the same.
4. Play some familiar tracks. Listen for the balance of bass, mids and highs. If bass is lower than your liking, move speakers closer to front wall, one inch at a time. Listen again for balance. Repeat process till you feel you have achieved some balance. You can also reinforce or reduce the bass by moving the speakers closer/away from side walls, but consider this secondary tuning (distance from front wall being primary bass tuning).
5. Play around with toe in. Lesser toe in typically will result in a wider sound stage but not necessarily a locked sound stage. Also, the amount of toe in needed depends on how directive (or not) is the tweeter's beam. A more dispersed beam needs less toe in, and vice versa. After many iterations, you will achieve a good balance of sound stage width and depth, and focus (instruments and voices will have specific place in the left right field as well as in the front-back field). After playing around with toe in, readjust distance to front wall achieved in previous step.

It's a boring and tedious process. Do it over multiple sittings so as not to strain your ears. After some point you'll no longer hear subtle changes. That's when you need to take a break. A second ear you trust helps.

Also, hang (or prop up) one pillow each at the first reflection points. You'll hear a more focused sound straight away. While playing music, place your palm on the surface of the pillow - there's a lot of air pushed to the mattress, and the pillows help to tame some of that undesirable energy.

If you have a couple of cotton-filled mattresses lying around roll them up, tie securely using a couple of ropes in the longer direction and place one each at the corners behind the speakers. This is a crude but effective bass trap. If you have a long pole insert into the roll to be able to stand it up. Otherwise, just lean it into the corner.

 

[spirovious]

Based on your recent photos - you definitely have to treat your room. There are a lot of reflective/hard surfaces. Defer your Amp/DAC upgrades. IMO I would concentrate on the room first. After you have that in control you can look at upgrades.

Cheers,
Sid

I feel the same.May be unwanted reflections is killing "wow" factor.
Till then try towing in the speakers.

 

[Aanuj]

Two simple things before going for upgrades. 1st borrow and interchange amps and secondly try some damping like placing flower/plant pots in two corners behind the speakers and check. If it alters something then you will have to go for that something.

 

[sound_cycle]

try some damping like placing flower/plant pots in two corners behind the speakers and check. If it alters something then you will have to go for that something.

Absolutely no intention of being curt or rude, just stating fact.

Won't do anything beneficial, audio wise. waste of time and effort.

Ditto bookshelf.

If the goal is fixing your room to get the stereo illusion and/ or neutral sound.

ciao
gr

 

[eddie_fox]

Two simple things before going for upgrades. 1st borrow and interchange amps and secondly try some damping like placing flower/plant pots in two corners behind the speakers and check. If it alters something then you will have to go for that something.

Hi Aanuj,

Thanks, I am trying to listen to borrowed amps, as well as working on the room treatment.

Meanwhile..

All Bangalore and visiting FMs,

Invitation open for one and all. Anyone interested in dropping-in for a quick listening session, a little discussion and providing me some tips are welcome (in the evenings post 6pm on weekdays and anytime on weekends). If we can listen to your amp, even better.

Beverages of choice on the house.

EF

 

[sound_cycle]

Beverages of choice on the house.

See if you can borrow a umik and then d/l Dirac (free trial), with some easy to put in treatment like Joshua described.

You can send me my beer

ciao
gr