Point of satisfaction

[firearm12]

In this imperfect world of audio where there is no perfect system and sound, how can one identify that he is satisfied by the quality of his music system. Are there any parameters which brain can use to determine that the system is good and there is now no serious need for further improvement. So my questions are

- What parameters you guys look for in a system to judge it, analogishness? Long listenability? natural tones? Bass etc?
- name two songs that you love and feel sound best on your system
- name two songs that you love but feel sound not so good on your system

These days i feel i am chasing some sound which i dont even know is possible or not so looking for some way out to end the fight.

 

[mpw]

if you visit other homes and other systems then you will have an idea of what you like and what is your end game.

naturalness of sound
tonality
and filling the listening space to allow me the freedom to walk around without losing the music

how good a song depends on the mastering on the CD..

one can have the same track wounding North pole and South pole depending on the mastering / pressing

 

[prem]

I largely look for a natural reproduction. That is essentially a function of dynamics, tone and presence. Every element in a mix has its own dynamics. For me reproduction of that is very essential. I never break up a song into frequencies. It should work as a whole.

At the end of the day it really doesn’t matter what I look for. You need to figure out what you need to chase.

 

[jls001]

@firearm12 : Great thread!

You're asking the right questions (not that I have the answers).

I personally think that spectral balance is very important - bass, mids and treble should be equally represented (of course within the constraints of how much bass the speakers can deliver). The right amount of bass in the room is very important to get the mids and highs sound right. Once the bass locks the mids and highs automatically lock too. It's like stretching a rubber string. One can't bend one end of the stretched rubber string without affecting the middle and other end too. They are inter connected and one can't alter one part of the string without affecting the rest of the string. Ditto to audio spectral balance.

Tonality, resolution, imaging, sense of effortlessness, air around instruments, etc comes later.

 

[prem]

jls001, very nice point. However I somehow feel most people don’t understand the concept of a balanced sound. That’s something I always strive for. Of late I prefer using the word natural for balanced If any frequency dominates, there is no way you’re going to get a natural sound

To get a natural sound all frequencies are balanced wrt each other. In one system bass may be a bit less. But it still becomes very enjoyable if the mids and treble is balanced wrt bass. Which is why it’s important to listen as a whole

 

[firearm12]

if you visit other homes and other systems then you will have an idea of what you like and what is your end game.

naturalness of sound
tonality
and filling the listening space to allow me the freedom to walk around without losing the music

how good a song depends on the mastering on the CD..

one can have the same track wounding North pole and South pole depending on the mastering / pressing

I also agree listening to other systems is the real key.

@firearm12 : Great thread!

You're asking the right questions (not that I have the answers).

I personally think that spectral balance is very important - bass, mids and treble should be equally represented (of course within the constraints of how much bass the speakers can deliver). The right amount of bass in the room is very important to get the mids and highs sound right. Once the bass locks the mids and highs automatically lock too. It's like stretching a rubber string. One can't bend one end of the stretched rubber string without affecting the middle and other end too. They are inter connected and one can't alter one part of the string without affecting the rest of the string. Ditto to audio spectral balance.

Tonality, resolution, imaging, sense of effortlessness, air around instruments, etc comes later.

Thats a new perspective, i think you might be right about the bass thing. I find myself freqently in a boat where when i start to listen to my system, they sound fabulous and then suddenly everything becomes polite to my ears, then if i give my ears rest for say couple of minutes, same songs sound fabulous, in short if i wait for a couple of minutes before next song, i tend to enjoy more, maybe its because bass gets overemphasised in my small room.

I started this thread for finding the deciding factors if any in our systems, which can lead us to decide whether there is a real issue with sound and we need improvement or its just time and mood based psychological thing.

 

[flat_listener]

As Audiophiles we’re always looking for something better, getting us closer and more in touch with the music.

I would suggest that satisfaction is just an emotion and no emotion is absolute, because our emotional state changes as soon as we fully experience the emotion.

 

[Deleted member 15865]

For me the indication is my eagerness to play albums on my system. When my system has got disturbed (usually by experimentations), I dont feel like listening to it. But then there are times when it is optimised well and I keep digging out albums to listen to on it.

So the logical question is then why experiment after reaching an optimum? Well, because at the end of successful experimentation, one reaches a new optimum - which usually sounds better (sometimes just different) than the previous optimum! That’s an audiophile‘s journey I guess. Never to rest with what one has achieved. The constant experimentation, learning and improvement keeps us going.

(As for the parameters - well, what doesn’t one want? Dynamic range, tonality/naturalness, openness/transparency, microtones, immediacy, imaging, sound stage... sky is the limit. I guess it’s equally important what one is looking to avoid/control - usually that’s boom, harshness, smearing, flatness, compression, muddiness)

I would suggest that satisfaction is just an emotion and no emotion is absolute, because our emotional state changes as soon as we fully experience the emotion.

So true. Satisfaction is so ephemeral that it’s better not to keep it as an objectIve. Continuous improvement suits me (and perhaps a lot of us) better as an objective. When it comes to sound, we‘d be forever “अतृप्त आत्मा“s.

 

[firearm12]

jls001, very nice point. However I somehow feel most people don’t understand the concept of a balanced sound. That’s something I always strive for. Of late I prefer using the word natural for balanced If any frequency dominates, there is no way you’re going to get a natural sound

To get a natural sound all frequencies are balanced wrt each other. In one system bass may be a bit less. But it still becomes very enjoyable if the mids and treble is balanced wrt bass. Which is why it’s important to listen as a whole

A stupid question but as they say there is no stupid question... how does one know that sound is balanced and no frequency dominates or recede, can we reliably do it with human ear or its better to rely on machines to measure, or indeed its better to be done by ears and it comes easily by listening to other systems, i think it would also depend on how the track is laid out in production.

 

[tuff]

In my experience ,systems sound different, not necessarily better. Last month i visited forum member @SachinChavan , and heard his system. Very gracious host, and welcoming. I saw that he likes listening at low volumes compared to me. So i asked him to blast it up, and some more, and some more..... I could see him shaking his head , he never cranks his system. we also heard the same song (Nusrat Fateh CD) with the tube preamp, and then
with integrated solid state amp. Boom, the imaging was precise and the highs popped out, I was loving it. But still there were things i felt the system was lagging in. The high's were sounding rolled off, them being book shelf speakers,they did not give me the oomph i was looking for. But if some one asked me if i could live with a system like that, my answer would be "YOU BET".
SO after all that, our listening habit's do play a bigger role in deciding how far we want to go.

 

[Deleted member 15865]

A stupid question but as they say there is no stupid question... how does one know that sound is balanced and no frequency dominates or recede, can we reliably do it with human ear or its better to rely on machines to measure, or indeed its better to be done by ears and it comes easily by listening to other systems, i think it would also depend on how the track is laid out in production.

If you have the capability, equipment and (importantly) the interest for measurements, plotting frequency response is one way to assess the balance. You’d find some FMs (and even sone professional reviewers) relying on measurements over trusting their ears. There’s some merit in it as our ears have their own limitations - for example our ability to hear higher frequencies reduces with age/abuse. But the counter-argument is, if you are assessing your own system (and not trying to establish its absolute virtue), why measure what you can’t/won’t hear? If you are a DIY enthusiast, its a different case as you don’t make just for yourself. But remember that measurements can only measure certain aspects (balance for example, and not timbre or immediacy), and would still have their limitations in a real listening environment (which keeps changing as you shift/add furnitures, furnishings etc.)

I don’t have the interest for measurements. Nor do I want to rely on them. So, people like me tend to rely on their ears. But then you need a reference to compare with. One option is to listen to a number of other systems and build your own internal reference. Now, that couid be error-prone. And seldom you’d get to listen to someone else’s system and your own back to back. So then what? The solution I have worked out for myself is a simpler one. Get a reference earphone/headphone. My Etymotic Research ER4SR IEM’s serve me this purpose. They are well-proven and widely acknowledged as studio reference quality. I use them as close to the source as possible. Generally I prefer connecting them to the laptop (MacBook Pro) or iPhone directly for this purpose (checking FR of my system in comparison). Now, since @tuff visited me few weeks ago (refer above post), I’ve been experimenting with isolators, power cables and speaker position (bringing them closer to each other) and comparing the result with my reference on the Etymotics. I have been able to get some more juice into the higher frequencies (though within the natural limitations of my speakers).

In fact, I also use my iPhone (the 11 Pro Max model is quite good at it) to record samples of my system’s sound before and after any experimentation and play it through my Etymotic. The A/B comparison is very revealing and effective in assessing the balance (or tonality; though it not so for assessing say, the soundstage). In fact I can assess certain changes better this way than comparing directly (real time). Perhaps because I can focus better with the IEMs, and play the samples repeatedly.

In my experience ,systems sound different, not necessarily better. Last month i visited forum member @SachinChavan , and heard his system. Very gracious host, and welcoming.

Tuff, thanks! I love getting to know and understand personalities (also make part of my living through that ) and you are indeed an interesting person to know. Your career journey in the world of media (visualisation), your maverick choices wrt life, and your transparency as a person makes interaction with you delightful.

 

[bornfi]

Mine is psychological and it is like this if for any reason if I fail to listen at least one song on a particular day, I go to bed thinking I missed something.

Though the previous reasoning might sound funny to some but this one is even funnier that while doing critical listening, I get so involved that I find it disturbing even swallowing saliva (forget about sound from TV in other rooms and cars passing by) and I only do it at the end of song.

 

[prem]

firearm12, I trust my ears to achieve a balanced sound. Apart from the equipment, things that affect the balance could be cables, isolation, power and positioning. The most important IME is speaker positioning. To begin with keep your cables as simple as possible. Don’t try any audiophile stuff. Also try avoiding emi filters in your power line feeding the system. If you want a bit of warmth, place equipment on wood. Normally vibrapods under the equipment is a good starting point. These are just pointers that you could probably start with.

 

[firearm12]

Though the previous reasoning might sound funny to some but this one is even funnier that while doing critical listening, I get so involved that I find it disturbing even swallowing saliva (forget about sound from TV in other rooms and cars passing by) and I only do it at the end of song.

Whoa. I forget to do it sometimes when i am concentrating too much on anything my mouth gets full in seconds. Looks like you are totally in love with your system thats very good.

If you have the capability, equipment and (importantly) the interest for measurements, plotting frequency response is one way to assess the balance. You’d find some FMs (and even sone professional reviewers) relying on measurements over trusting their ears. There’s some merit in it as our ears have their own limitations - for example our ability to hear higher frequencies reduces with age/abuse. But the counter-argument is, if you are assessing your own system (and not trying to establish its absolute virtue), why measure what you can’t/won’t hear? If you are a DIY enthusiast, its a different case as you don’t make just for yourself. But remember that measurements can only measure certain aspects (balance for example, and not timbre or immediacy), and would still have their limitations in a real listening environment (which keeps changing as you shift/add furnitures, furnishings etc.)

I don’t have the interest for measurements. Nor do I want to rely on them. So, people like me tend to rely on their ears. But then you need a reference to compare with. One option is to listen to a number of other systems and build your own internal reference. Now, that couid be error-prone. And seldom you’d get to listen to someone else’s system and your own back to back. So then what? The solution I have worked out for myself is a simpler one. Get a reference earphone/headphone. My Etymotic Research ER4SR IEM’s serve me this purpose. They are well-proven and widely acknowledged as studio reference quality. I use them as close to the source as possible. Generally I prefer connecting them to the laptop (MacBook Pro) or iPhone directly for this purpose (checking FR of my system in comparison). Now, since @tuff visited me few weeks ago (refer above post), I’ve been experimenting with isolators, power cables and speaker position (bringing them closer to each other) and comparing the result with my reference on the Etymotics. I have been able to get some more juice into the higher frequencies (though within the natural limitations of my speakers).

In fact, I also use my iPhone (the 11 Pro Max model is quite good at it) to record samples of my system’s sound before and after any experimentation and play it through my Etymotic. The A/B comparison is very revealing and effective in assessing the balance (or tonality; though it not so for assessing say, the soundstage). In fact I can assess certain changes better this way than comparing directly (real time). Perhaps because I can focus better with the IEMs, and play the samples repeatedly.



Tuff, thanks! I love getting to know and understand personalities (also make part of my living through that ) and you are indeed an interesting person to know. Your career journey in the world of media (visualisation), your maverick choices wrt life, and your transparency as a person makes interaction with you delightful.

Thats interesting, comparing speakers with iems, i thought they could never sound same. I also have tried to record on my mobile and observe changes but it has never been fruitful, perhaps my mobile is not so evolved.

 

[firearm12]

firearm12, I trust my ears to achieve a balanced sound. Apart from the equipment, things that affect the balance could be cables, isolation, power and positioning. The most important IME is speaker positioning. To begin with keep your cables as simple as possible. Don’t try any audiophile stuff. Also try avoiding emi filters in your power line feeding the system. If you want a bit of warmth, place equipment on wood. Normally vibrapods under the equipment is a good starting point. These are just pointers that you could probably start with.

Thanks for suggestion @prem, actually all these things i have been trying since last two years and to my ears all of it except isolation has improved my system alot. My system does not sound bad but its sometine like pata nahi kya chahiye khud ko. So looking to understand how to set expectations in mind and be peaceful. But yes you are right starting all once again might prove to be helpful.

 

[Deleted member 15865]

Thats interesting, comparing speakers with iems, i thought they could never sound same. I also have tried to record on my mobile and observe changes but it has never been fruitful, perhaps my mobile is not so evolved.

Yes, the approach needs a capable phone (or other recorder) and near-reference IEM. It was a bigger reason for me to buy the said IEM than merely listening.

Thanks for suggestion @prem, actually all these things i have been trying since last two years and to my ears all of it except isolation has improved my system alot. My system does not sound bad but its sometine like pata nahi kya chahiye khud ko. So looking to understand how to set expectations in mind and be peaceful. But yes you are right starting all once again might prove to be helpful.

Right. What you are looking for is not explicit suggestions on sound improvements, but how to build your own sound reference to set a goal to strive for and how to establish a method to assess your system against that reference.

 

[oracle1974]

Probably this thread should be titled Different Points of Satisfaction - rather than just Point of Satisfaction.

Great thread ! Thanks Firearm12.

 

[Gerry_the_Merry]

My two bits...particularly since I agree with parts of what many people have written. I am getting the best sound in my I have ever got, but this despite 1) there being 10% more bass than I would like - so definitely not perfectly balanced 2) speakers being not symmetrical wrt the axis - they are actually asymmetrically toed out (some very experienced FMs who visited me recently told me this disturbed them! till they began listening to their favourite tracks).

I look for sound being very vivid, plenty of punch (but not excessive), highs colourful without being bright, and combination of soundstage width and depth and good tonality, which don't often happen together.

Finally, after tasting a bit of success in this direction, I have spent all my time listening to music and none trying to tweak. The largest changes were due to speaker upgrade and speaker positioning.

 

[prem]

firearm12, as others have suggested, you have to build your own reference. That’s most critical. Everyone’s reference is different

As suggested by others, listen to other people’s systems, go for live performances, read on International forums what others with your equipment have been trying. Basis all of above, build your own reference point. And start from there. When you start, remove all tweaks and start adding them one by one and see what works and what doesn’t.

 

[firearm12]

Well today was an unusual day. The politeness that i mentioned earlier is now gone away and i did not even touch anything in my system altogether. Starting from inside of my wall socket (to which system is connected) i had a single 3 mtr 3 core patch cable which was connected to another set of cables (through another socket) that goes straight down to mcb. Now this patch cable of 3m was not in one peice but two pieces of short cables which were joined together by twisting and rolling (almost 3 inches of wire each side was uncovered and twisted). All i did today was lay down a fresh cable of around 3 mts bypassing the joint. I dont know what more to say more but this just transformed the whole system. Clarity and treble has increased, system has become so more bold and dynamic not polite in any sense, its just not missing any beat now, i feel like its now on steroids and more 'balanced'. The new cable is same havells make and model as that was present previously. And its certainly not placebo that i am experiencing. I am still digesting what happened but moral of story is dont twist and join power cables together anywhere between wall socket and mcb. I am still wondering whats in store if i could lay down a single run of cable from socket to mcb. Looks like i am one step closer to the thread title now. It has reiterated how much power is important for any system.