Pre Amp or Power amp for sound signature?

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krisna

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Hi,
I could see one or two threads already open on this topic, i am bit confused yet.
what is responsible for sonic signature in an integrated amp - amp or preamp? The reason i ask, I'm looking to buy a specific vintage amp that puts out 30w/c, to drive my elac b6.2 140w, 6ohms, 87db. Some say vintage amps could drive them easily, some say it may not. Say if it can't drive my speakers, and If the answer to sonic signature is pre amp, i could use the vintage amp as a preamp and my AVR as power amp in direct mode. If not, i could just pass the chance to buy the vintage amplifier.

Thanks.
 
krisna said:
Hi,
I could see one or two threads already open on this topic, i am bit confused yet.
what is responsible for sonic signature in an integrated amp - amp or preamp? The reason i ask, I'm looking to buy a specific vintage amp that puts out 30w/c, to drive my elac b6.2 140w, 6ohms, 87db. Some say vintage amps could drive them easily, some say it may not. Say if it can't drive my speakers, and If the answer to sonic signature is pre amp, i could use the vintage amp as a preamp and my AVR as power amp in direct mode. If not, i could just pass the chance to buy the vintage amplifier.

Thanks.
Click to expand...
Both can and are responsible for the end sonic signature.

BTW as far as I am concerned neither any electronics nor speaker are truly neutral. There I said it 😃
 
manek said:
Both can and are responsible for the end sonic signature.

BTW as far as I am concerned neither any electronics nor speaker are truly neutral. There I said it 😃
Click to expand...
So the chances of getting the sonic signature of an integrated amp by simply using it as pre amp is slim?
 
While there are so many nuances to it, a simple way would be that the amp has to match the speaker in being able to optimize on that sound signature and the Amp+ Preamp combination needs to have enough gain (usually 30-36dB). In the end it is always of the weakest link eg no matter how good your pre amp is, if the power amp is not upto the mark, you will not get the value anyway.

Which amp are you planning to buy ? perhaps using it as an integrated amp might give you a better sound than using the AVR as a poweramp
 
arj said:
While there are so many nuances to it, a simple way would be that the amp has to match the speaker in being able to optimize on that sound signature and the Amp+ Preamp combination needs to have enough gain (usually 30-36dB). In the end it is always of the weakest link eg no matter how good your pre amp is, if the power amp is not upto the mark, you will not get the value anyway.

Which amp are you planning to buy ? perhaps using it as an integrated amp might give you a better sound than using the AVR as a poweramp
Click to expand...
the integrated amp would be vintage, Luxman, Sansui or Marantz mostly they have 30 to 50w. Hope they could drive my speakers in 87db sensitivity, If not, planning to use them as pre amps and my Denon AVR x250bt, which until now, i have no issues driving my speakers, as power amp.
 
krisna said:
the integrated amp would be vintage, Luxman, Sansui or Marantz mostly they have 30 to 50w. Hope they could drive my speakers in 87db sensitivity, If not, planning to use them as pre amps and my Denon AVR x250bt, which until now, i have no issues driving my speakers, as power amp.
Click to expand...
Most speakers in this range can be driven my most amps over 30W, they are designed like that so 50w amp is more than enough.
 
The Pre-amp is responsible for the sound signature as it is what contains the volume and tone controls. A power amps duty is to simply amplify the signal passed on to it without any changes.

How are you planning to connect the vintage amp to the AVR ? Does it have pre-outs ?

The Denon AVR x250bt is a 70w + 70w @ 8 Ohm 20hz to 20 Khz receiver. If it drives your speakers well, the vintage amp you are looking at might drive it even better. If you connect a vintage amp to an AVR, it will be like connecting two pre-amps to each other as an AVR will not act as a pure power amp. You will know this as volume and tone can be set in both the vintage integrated and the AVR. Since the AVR will be using its preamp too, it might add its own sound to it (Pure direct mode will be better but will still have the pre-amp in the chain) and you might not get the sound signature of just the vintage amp that you are looking for.
 
ssf said:
The Pre-amp is responsible for the sound signature as it is what contains the volume and tone controls. A power amps duty is to simply amplify the signal passed on to it without any changes.

How are you planning to connect the vintage amp to the AVR ? Does it have pre-outs ?

The Denon AVR x250bt is a 70w + 70w @ 8 Ohm 20hz to 20 Khz receiver. If it drives your speakers well, the vintage amp you are looking at might drive it even better. If you connect a vintage amp to an AVR, it will be like connecting two pre-amps to each other as an AVR will not act as a pure power amp. You will know this as volume and tone can be set in both the vintage integrated and the AVR. Since the AVR will be using its preamp too, it might add its own sound to it (Pure direct mode will be better but will still have the pre-amp in the chain) and you might not get the sound signature of just the vintage amp that you are looking for.
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Oh is it. I thought in direct mode, the AVR disconnect everything other than amp. Thanks for the info.
 
My experience will say its more of preamp. Tried some pre and power combos ,even AVR pre, and found that preamp signature will decide sound signature more. Poweramp will add a good headroom depending on wattage.
 
@krisna You are now entering an area where generalizations abound and are true for those who have experienced it but in the end it boils down to personalization of that for you specifically in terms of the music you listen to, your speakers and your room and how they are setup.
eg
Pre power are generally better than Integrated but there are integrated 's better than pre powers. in the end it depends on which one you have, which one you are planning to buy and what matches better with speaker and room.

AVRs usually do not give you the same quality as an integrated which is built for stereo unless you are listening to multichannel music. so based in what integrated you go for, the highest probability is it will play better than your AVR.

Finally your speaker will be the biggest contributor to everything. The elac b6.2 is a very decent entry level speaker and being that is designed to work with most amps and whats important is if the sonic signature will be something you will like and thats very subjective From a cursory review I could glance through its supposed to be transparent and revealing hence based on the quality of your source especially if you do use Mp3/Streaming content , I would suggest an amp which has a warm character.

Most Older Denon/Marantz/Luxman would be fine although with sansui its going to be very model specific as some may be brighter sounding that what you may prefer.

My suggestions is dont go into Pre powers now and even if you are able to, do not use the AVR as a power amp
 
jls001 said:
No electronic component is truly neutral or transparent to the source. It adds its colouration to the incoming signal. The power amp will also be responsible for the final sound.
Click to expand...
Right. The way a power amp is biased can make significant difference to final sound
 
aeroash said:
Direct mode disables the tone controls, and DSP.
Click to expand...
When I was repairing my Yamaha AVR I found that the SMPS power supply cuts off 3.3v and 5v supply to the HDMI board which has all the microprocessor and the DSP chips. The display which also runs using digital to digital convertors, the power supply gets cut off. Just the rectified power supply which is direct from the main transformer remains on allowing just the preamp and amp to function. The subwoofer out 7.2, etc all gets cutoff and I think just the L + R speakers work.
 

Pre Amp or Power amp for sound signature?​


Hmmm... Mother or father for a child's integrated growth ?

I will not evade the question, will certainly answer it based on my beliefs....

A "REAL" INTEGRATED
But before that, there is a more important point that I feel needs to be addressed first.
You are referring to buying a Vintage amp and exploring the option to use its preamp section.
Many Classic / Vintage Amps, particularly , were simply power amps with a volume control potentiometer (a single variable resistance) at its input. So watch out... the "integrated amplifier" that you buy, it may or may not have a Pre Amp section at all !

POWER
Also, a 30 Watt Power amp with a 87 dB speaker may not be enough power, depending on your room size, typical listening levels and type of music (eg Jazz, Indian or Western Classical, Rock, etc). I had Sonus Faber Extremas, driven by a Prima Luna Prologue 2 Integrated (45 Watts valve power) which I felt was just adequate and it did not let me indulge in occasional high volume listening.

PRE VS POWER AMP
Now regarding the Pre vs Power... IMO (and all of this post is IMO ;)) Both Bring different things to the table.
A Power Amp, I feel influences Marco dynamics of the sound ... as well as brute force and control of the speaker cones. Fast Transients, Tight Bass are some other characteristics.

A Good Pre amp provides finesse.... Air, ambience, Separation, Delicacy to the sound, subtle clues in the reproduction, etc.

Today preamps are often expected to provide (specially by young ones in the family) BlueTooth Connectivity, etc. and these features may be very important for many homes.

At the level that you are looking at, I would suggest that you have a single "Integrated" amp and not split Pre and Power Amp functionality. Your budget would be better allocated towards a DAC and computer audio, probably using an existing computer.

Just my 2 cents :)
 
krisna said:
I could see one or two threads already open on this topic, i am bit confused yet.
Click to expand...
You need to try that vintage amplifier with your Elac's before you buy.
30 watts may seem sufficient but who knows the history of that vintage amplifier. If parts have been changed, renewed to specification matched components.

I don't see the point of buying a vintage amplifier for the purpose of using it with your audio video home theater receiver. You will likely benefit from better electronic/digital source switching from your modern AVR versus something so old.

As for sonic signature, the main component that defines this is usually the loudspeaker. Electronics in the chain will result in some change but needs a close ear to call it out.
 
sandeepmohan said:
You need to try that vintage amplifier with your Elac's before you buy.
30 watts may seem sufficient but who knows the history of that vintage amplifier. If parts have been changed, renewed to specification matched components.

I don't see the point of buying a vintage amplifier for the purpose of using it with your audio video home theater receiver. You will likely benefit from better electronic/digital source switching from your modern AVR versus something so old.

As for sonic signature, the main component that defines this is usually the loudspeaker. Electronics in the chain will result in some change but needs a close ear to call it out.
Click to expand...
I agree with Sandeepmohan. Vintage amps have a romantic image but more often than not, they do not live upto that image.

Components, specially electrolytic capacitors deteriorate with age .... Resistors drift....

Hence unless the Vintage amp has been properly restored, it is unlikely that you will heard what the amp was capable of, when new.

Of course, everyone has their personal take on this.
 
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