Review: Arcam with B&W/Wharfedale

[Flash]

I bought the Arcam A70 integrated amp from a FM a couple of days ago and using it as a pre till I get a Rotel Pre from across the border. Infact the Arcam will go back to the FM once I get my Preamp since he has already shown interest that he wants to buy it back

I tested the Arcam extensively as a standalone integrated. It was a completely blind purchase
It is rated at 50watts x 2 8 ohms.
Well i must say it is a solid amp very very well built and IMO looks brilliant. has loads of features
Preouts / Processor Mode which is Something like a HT Bypass / Phone stage/ Different volume trims / Source trims etc etc
It is a feature packed amp and in a completely different league in terms of features over a let say mid order Marantz / Yam/ Denon

Anyway most important getting down to the sound signature

I tried the Amp with my
B&W 685 bookshelves
Pioneer CS303 - Bookshelves
Wharfedale 9.6 - Floorstanders

(Poweramps not connected to the preouts of Arcam)

Review -1 (B&W 685 with Arcam)

Arcam and B&W IMO is not really a good match. Arcam is a little too warm. It could the fact that I like my music tending towards neutral with slight biad towards warmth.
Anyhow Arcam tends to roll of the highs and with the B&W it tends to sound too safe and recessed.the 685 is a difficult speaker to place it not warm neither is it bright its a little forward sounding though i guess due to the Aluminium Nautilus tweeter which it shares with the 684/683
With the KEF Q300 or similar it could be an entirely different story and would probably be a good match
With the B&W vocals sound too mellow and instruments especially the guitar and violin have them sounding too mellow. Its a sort of not in your face approach. Soundstage and imaging is decent. But it could be better . I presume a higher up/ newer Arcam FMJ series would bring that out
However for FM's looking for Arcam as a integrated be careful with partnering a brighter speaker would be better as it would tame the brightness (Paradigms, KEF etc)


Review - II (Pioneer CS-303 with Arcam)

I have a pair of rather large vintage bookshelves with a 10" driver / 1"mid / Horn loaded tweeter (so on the brighter side)
Sensitivity 92db

What can i say match made in heaven. Brilliant matching sounds awesome together. It could play really loud with authority.
A not of mention, I usually listen to music pretty loud and even at very high volumes the Arcam did not get stressed nor did it start clipping a very solid amp.
Instrument separation + Vocals + Soundstage + Imaging all perfect.
I would never have to look at any other amp """EVER""" if I decide to mate the Arcam to the Pioneer
This further reinforces my point that with brighter equipment Klipsch / KEF/ Polk . It would match perfectly

Review - III

Wharfedale 9.6 floostander with Arcam.

We are all familiar with Wharf 9 series speakers. I have always felt that the 9.6 stands out in the Dia 9 family.
The 9.6 is not as warm as the 9.1, 9.2, 9.5
Infact it is a lot more detailed and Vocals and Intruments is where it sounds a class apart. However the 9.6 required a lot of time to break in.
When i first got the 9.6 they were excessively warm and with time has opened up especially the midrange

Anyway getting down to pairing. well surprise of the day. The Arcams matched very well with the Wharf 9.6. Infact I kinda like the sound signature the excessive midrange fq of the 9.6 were toned down enough to make it a pleasurable listening experience
yes i know a 50watt per channel amp with Big floorstanders.
Yes there is a small lack of kick in the lower frequencies but still enough to make your heart pound.
I cant say that the Arcams can drive them with ease but sufficiently enough for a medium sized room at mid volume levels.
When paired with the Rotels PA's however the story was completely different. The power factor came into play

Anyway getting down to brass tax

1. Arcam Amps are built brilliantly like a tank. Solid enclosure and has a lot of features. yes the price is a bummer for the newer FMJ series and all other arcam equipment but I dont think you can really go wrong with an Arcam product. Just as long as u are wise with partnering

2.Never buy any amp / speaker blind, make sure you audition them extensively. If I had to buy the Arcam as a standalone for my B&W without even listening to it. It would have probably been a huge mistake. Since it is a temp arrangement as I am using it as a Pre. I can live with the decision.

3. Partnering is very important aspect . Speaker / Amp synergy is probably the most important aspect of any hifi purchase.

4. Base your decision about a particular speaker/amp only after listening to them with different associated partnering. and avoid auditioning speakers in a showroom with some really expensive high powered amp unless you intend to buy that amp. Ask the salesman to hook up the speakers meant for auditioning with more run of the mill affordable products in your price band.
I made the mistake of demoing to the B&W's with a really expensive amp / preamp setup and been on the quest to replicate that experience ever since
It makes absolutely no sense for me to buy a 5 lakh amp/preamp setup and mate it to a 40-50k speaker

 

[BLASTO]

Few important points I understood in my speaker search is as follows.

1) B&W speakers require electronics and pairing components multiple times its cost to shine.

2) When paired with lesser 'powered' components, the lower frequencies over power the upper frequencies and as a result, the hi frequencies are rolled off.

3) Pairing is tricky. Rotel pairs well and I assume other higher and higher end components pair well. But the electronics which cost in the same range as the speakers dont exactly pair well or will require you to toil and demo a lot of equipments.

Out of topic, The MA speakers are the opposite. They work well with lesser power and components lower in the chain.

Again, Upgrade will be a problem with MA and will NOT be for B&W.

 

[spirovious]

I think changing preamp to rotel may be exiting.

 

[Flash]

I think changing preamp to rotel may be exiting.

Well Preamp to Rotel PA's... well improvement in overal sound and dynamic range however the warmth does not Appeal to me.
With the B&W its a bad match. Point Blank. Neither performs to its potential
With the Wharfy 9.6 and Pioneer CS-303. Match made in Heaven. Just right
Its like a tube sort of sound. Warm and Rich.
However with my musical preferences Western Classical, Diana Krall, Gregorian Chants, Native American Flute Music..
On the B&W's it sounded like the Life was sucked out of the music. Using an Emotica UMC-1 as a preamp. It was a completely different story and the B&W's counded like a different animal all together
On the Pioneer's / Wharf... It opened up a entirely new dimension. Probably the best I have heard so far with them

Blasto mentioned that Arcam's mate well with MA would love to give it a go and hear them sing together

 

[doors666]

The B&W I presume are a lot less efficient than the wharfdales and the pioneers with a 10" driver and horn loaded tweeter. You also like to listen to loud volumes. That is probably the reason why you didnt like them with arcams as the bw needed more power.

whether its FS or BS, it doesnt matter. its the speaker's efficiency that matters and FS usually do better in that department than BS. Its a misconception that big speakers need big power, they can probably handle more power though if they have more drivers.
If you are crossing over with a sub, most of the BS with 6.5-7" drivers can gobble up hundreds of watts of power before they complain.

 

[Flash]

The B&W I presume are a lot less efficient than the wharfdales and the pioneers with a 10" driver and horn loaded tweeter. You also like to listen to loud volumes. That is probably the reason why you didnt like them with arcams as the bw needed more power.

Yes the
B&W's 88db
Wharf 90db
Pioneer 92db

However the Arcam's when used as a Pre with Rotel 180wx2 Power Amps . same story .
So I guess it's not the power factor that comes into play here .
But the synergy between the 2 pairing components.

whether its FS or BS, it doesnt matter. its the speaker's efficiency that matters and FS usually do better in that department than BS. Its a misconception that big speakers need big power, they can probably handle more power though if they have more drivers.

Well efficiency is important I totally agree. However with most Home Audio speakers which hover between 86 - 92db ( exclude Klipsch /Cervin Vega)
wont power become a factor as well
Won't x amount of power driving a 2 way bookshelf and x amount of power drivng a 4 way Floorstander be completely different

50 watt Amp should drive most bookshelves easily and a set of floorstanders as well. However (correct me if I am wrong)
When u have multiple drivers displacing air wont the power factor come into play. Not to play louder but to drive the excursion better with better grip ?

I am under the belief that Low frequencies are the most demanding on any loudspeaker and amp. That is what stresses any amp or Speaker to the max.
Let say I play a track with subsonic freq like Basstonics - Bass I love you
sitting approx 15 feet away away from let say a 90db /1 meter measured bookshelf (2 way) and 90db-1 meter measured Floorstander (3 way - 4 way)

Assume I play it at a medium listening volume let say 95db at my listening position 5 meters away. wont a FS stutter in producing the low fq with the 50 watt amp since it has to move multiple drivers in tandem. ?
(Barring high current designs ((Tube amps etc)) )

""Opinions welcome as I need to check my understanding ""

If you are crossing over with a sub, most of the BS with 6.5-7" drivers can gobble up hundreds of watts of power before they complain.

Absolutely because when mated with a Powered sub let say at 80 hz. A huge load is taken off the Speaker driver in producing power hungry frequencies and in tandem from the Amp as well.
You can drive the BS a lot louder and cleaner this way as the BS woofer excursions are kept to a minimum and they are playing easier upper bass/midbass fq

 

[Zwischen]

Well efficiency is important I totally agree. However with most Home Audio speakers which hover between 86 - 92db ( exclude Klipsch /Cervin Vega)
wont power become a factor as well
Won't x amount of power driving a 2 way bookshelf and x amount of power drivng a 4 way Floorstander be completely different

50 watt Amp should drive most bookshelves easily and a set of floorstanders as well. However (correct me if I am wrong)
When u have multiple drivers displacing air wont the power factor come into play. Not to play louder but to drive the excursion better with better grip ?

I am under the belief that Low frequencies are the most demanding on any loudspeaker and amp. That is what stresses any amp or Speaker to the max.
Let say I play a track with subsonic freq like Basstonics - Bass I love you
sitting approx 15 feet away away from let say a 90db /1 meter measured bookshelf (2 way) and 90db-1 meter measured Floorstander (3 way - 4 way)

Assume I play it at a medium listening volume let say 95db at my listening position 5 meters away. wont a FS stutter in producing the low fq with the 50 watt amp since it has to move multiple drivers in tandem. ?
(Barring high current designs ((Tube amps etc)) )

""Opinions welcome as I need to check my understanding ""

I would like some clarity on this as well

 

[doors666]

when u have 3-4 drivers in a speakers, they handle different freq ranges and hence operate in their comfort zone, whereas in a 2way, the woofer is doing a double duty of handling the mids as well as bass.
Usually the effeciency of a speaker is dictated by the eff of the least eff driver, the rest of them are padded down to the level of the least efficient driver.

LF will stress the most. Whether its BS or FS doesnot matter as you are talking about the same eff and same power. You will get the same amount of sound. Assuming same quality drivers and excellent design (with 3-4 way speakers in the commercial world, its not all the common), a 3-4 way should sound better.

Watts are watts, tube or SS doesnt matter, unless they are fake watts from the likes of sony or aiwa. Many tubes will actually throw a fit if you connect them to a 4 ohm load.

 

[msagar]

Flash,

Can you share the info on Interconnects and Speaker Cables you are using with ARCAM and planning to use in the future with ROTEL system.

 

[Flash]

Flash,

Can you share the info on Interconnects and Speaker Cables you are using with ARCAM and planning to use in the future with ROTEL system.

With Arcam I used Audioquest all the way from Speaker cables to Interconnects.
Arcam and Audioquest mate well together.
With the Rotel PA's I again used Audioquest Interconnects . However I will be using a Emotiva UMC-1 as a preamp.
Sort of decided on it after auditioning the Emotiva / Rotel / B&W at home and I am looking at Emotiva / Chord cables.
I may go with a DIY Pure Silver interconnect not silver coated. So options open for the final setup

 

[BLASTO]

Check the second review below.

Arcam DIVA A70 Integrated Amplifiers Reviews

Looks like a good pair with the B&W 603 S3?
I'm more confused than ever.

 

[Flash]

Check the second review below.

Arcam DIVA A70 Integrated Amplifiers Reviews

Looks like a good pair with the B&W 603 S3?
I'm more confused than ever.

lol ... was equally confused as well earlier.

But it could be a case how each of us perceives sound and the inherent qualities we look for as a sound signature

however I got this reading the last part of the review

--------------------------------------
Long Run - U need to give this amp a lot of time to burn..atleast a generous 500 hrs to open up. and believe me..when it does...how does it sound? like a true Tube + TT gear! believe me..its so musical n so warm...that u just cant stop playing it...it sounds like a decent class AB tube amp...non-fatiguing...it will b hard to make out the diffference almost instantly..but yes..for the price..size n the technology..it is a wonderful amplifier. Full marks to the Arcam team!
----------------------------------

The Arcam / B&W synergy as the reviewer mentioned will give you a warm tube/TT sort of sound
Infact you will get fooled into thinking it is.
warm and well rounded. But the problem for me is that it is too uninvolving and boring with a speaker family which is already on the warmer side of business.

However when mated with brighter speakers. The Arcam lives up to its potential and thats how i came to the conclusion of brighter speakers with Arcam.

I just loved the warm toned down brighness, not in your face perfect sound from my bright Pioneer vintage as well as with the Wharf 9.6 which imo is the brightest of the lot from the Wharf 9 family.
The synergy was perfect. The highs / midrange was toned down to perfect levels with excellent detail and musicality
However take a wharf 10.2 / 9.2 or similar for example which is warm and mate it to arcam and it would be a disaster.
WARM + WARM = too dull and recessed


NAD's also have the warm signature however there is too much of prominence on the lower freq but the Arcam's do a better job it is warm with no emphasis on any particular spectrum

 

[BLASTO]

Without audition, the decision becomes harder and harder.

But the author of the review briefly summed up the hifi scene in India.
It is like buying shoes. Buy it but cant return.
IMO, hifi stuff require days of home audition to find a perfect one that suits the room. The problem is the more we have a home audition, the more we notice the flaws in synergy and the equipment themselves which reduces the probability of purchase. India will never get there. It is more like sell it and forget it kind of attitude that is prominent.

The next issue is the 'self proclaimed' flat sound as claimed by the hifi manufacturers.

WTF is the problem in giving a bass/treble knob? IMO pairing and overall synergy will be much easier if only they included two small knobs for the astronomical prices they claim. Why do they forget about the room and recording quality which are two major deciding factors in the chain is beyond me. Anyway thats for a different time and different thread.

 

[Flash]

Without audition, the decision becomes harder and harder.

But the author of the review briefly summed up the hifi scene in India.
It is like buying shoes. Buy it but cant return.
IMO, hifi stuff require days of home audition to find a perfect one that suits the room. The problem is the more we have a home audition, the more we notice the flaws in synergy and the equipment themselves which reduces the probability of purchase. India will never get there. It is more like sell it and forget it kind of attitude that is prominent.

The next issue is the 'self proclaimed' flat sound as claimed by the hifi manufacturers.

WTF is the problem in giving a bass/treble knob? IMO pairing and overall synergy will be much easier if only they included two small knobs for the astronomical prices they claim. Why do they forget about the room and recording quality which are two major deciding factors in the chain is beyond me. Anyway thats for a different time and different thread.

Yeah you hit the nail on the head
Hifi scene in India sucks. I have no idea when we will ever get to see atleast the "30 day money back satisfaction guarantee" ... I envy our American and European counterparts.

Tone controls on Integrated / preamps and preouts on AVR's.
Something that would not add more than probably $10 dollars to add.
Yet they skimp out on this and offer it on on Midrange or expensive AVR's and very few integrated.

I like Emotiva in that sense they have skimped out on the middle man dealers/distributers.
and that's why their products are so damn competitively priced atleast for the US market.
Check out their StereoPreamp UMC-1 ... Very very feature rich for $500. It offers a plethora of connections, Bass Management, MC/MM phone support etc etc.

Something similar from let say a NAiM / Arcam / Rotel or for that matter even Marantz / NAD would be priced enough to break the bank

I guess the best option for folks like us in India is to borrow equipment from other members to test synergy etc.
I don't see any other way out.