Seeking suggestions on network streaming (not CD) transport

[Deleted member 15865]

Hi guys, I am looking for a media streaming device to add to my home stereo system. I need the following capabilities:

1. Built in internet radio stations (should not require connecting to a smartphone for this)
2. Ability to play iTunes, Spotify and Tidal (hi-Res) by itself (connecting to the internet through wifi). The need to pair with smartphone is a turn off.
3. With coaxial line out to connect to my existing DAC. Preferably just a transport, or at least with digital out to bypass its DAC.
4. Audiophile quality - even though I don’t want to use its DAC, the signal should be clean, free of jitters etc. At least equivalent of my Cambridge Audio CXC CD transport’s performance.
5. I am not interested in playing music off my computer or hard disk. I would rather listen to my CD collection directly through my CXC than rip it. I need pure internet streaming.

I know there are options like the Cambridge Audio CXN and Marantz NA series, but these are costly because they have inbuilt DAC. Hence I am looking for either pure transport or a streamer which has basic DAC which I don’t pay huge sums for. I don’t mind paying a good enough amount (even 80-90k) if it’s being charged for the streaming and digital output - variety of sources, functionality, ease of use and performance.

I’ve been looking at network streamers and DAPs, but haven’t found any that matches my needs well and doesn’t charge me heavily for things I won’t use (DAC and computer/mobile streaming).

Any suggestions on what product or product category should I be looking for?

 

[rikhav]

Even if your transport won't have a DAC, least possible jitter would surely help with better sound

 

[SaurabhK]

Since you want to play Itunes you are restricted to players supporting Airplay.
Try the Bluesound Node 2i .
Since you havnt mentioned a budget ...

 

[newlash09]

All digital streamers work off a smart phone app. So you will have to compromise there.

If you don't need a dac, and no computer or Nas playback, then Google chrome cast is a great option if your dac can take optical input. Add a 5V linear psu, and the sound quality as a streamer will improve further

 

[Deleted member 15865]

Since you want to play Itunes you are restricted to players supporting Airplay.
Try the Bluesound Node 2i .
Since you havnt mentioned a budget ...

As mentioned in the post, I don’t mind paying upto 80-90k for a quality product that meets my needs. But I’d be happier if I get something around 40-60k. Bluesound Node 2i is in that range. I see some other competitors in Elac Discovery and Arcam RPlay too. But BS perhaps has a more stable user experience and longer track record than the otters.

But all these also require me to pay for the DAC which I’d like to bypass. But then again, I am not sure if my Schiit Bifrost DAC has the capability to convert hi res? Can someone look at its specs (attached) and tell if that’s the case? Bifrost DAC is 24 bit 192 KHz while BS Node 2i DAC is 32 bit 192 KHz. What would that difference mean in terms of capability to play various kinds of hi-Res?

 

[jai1611]

If your primary purpose is Tidal streaming, the 32 bit vs 24 bit support doesn’t matter. However, the fact that Bluesound supports MQA matters. That is the format Tidal uses for hi res streaming. There is some controversy about sound quality on that (some people say it sounds worse than normal flac, I haven’t heard it so have no view on the matter). The Schiit Bifrost doesn’t support MQA.

At a price point lower than the Bluesound, there is a Yamaha option. It supports Tidal, don’t know about MQA. There are also various Allo options - they are good quality pure transports but Tidal support on those is not great (hi res doesn’t work for Tidal)

 

[newlash09]

Hi Sachin..for what's it's worth. Iam among the minority who believe mqa makes a difference. I have a bluesound powernode which I use on tidal, and it makes a difference when streaming MQA tracks. However for that you will have to use the inbuilt dac of the bluesound node 2i as Iam not sure if the schiit can process the mqa after first unfolding in the bluesound streamer. And the bluesound app is robust and stable. So if streaming from internet is your priority, then the bluesound node2i is a great fit . All the best...

 

[raghupb]

No idea about the quality of MQA. The real issue here is licensing. MQA mandates a royalty on every unit of equipment sold.
This has got many OEMs to take sides.

On your original requirement, it may be hard to find a dedicated streamer only at a good price point.
They usually come with DAC or storage or some other feature that will be redundant in your existing rig.
Cheers,
Raghu

 

[Deleted member 15865]

Thanks Raghu, Newlash, Jai, Saurabh and Rikhav.

As I am realising from your comments and my surfing, it seems that if I have to go for internet streaming (including Tidal) most capable streamers will have an inbuilt DAC which I have to pay for. I may/may not use it. (One case where I can use it, unless it produces superior sound than my Bifrost, is when I connect it to my headphone and headphone amp which is in another room, it’s lying idle without for some time now). Since these streamers are small in size, moving from one room to another wouldn’t be much of an issue. That’s how I can justify the additional DAC.

Yes, the user interface is very important, both in terms of its functionality and stability. And I find BS Node 2i is perhaps best at it. Also, having MQA might future proof the investment depending on which way the tide turns. Doesn’t hurt having the option. I haven’t explored Allo transports (I’d do it now), but otherwise tending towards BS Node.

BTW, what are the other mainstream Hi-Res streaming app options apart from Tidal? Doesn’t have to have MQA, but at least CD quality. I am using currently Idagio on my iPad (which I connect with USB to my Bifrost DAC). It’s the only hi-Res streaming app I could find in the Apple store that I could buy in India. (It’s great by the way... dedicated to a Western classical and very affordable, do give it a try if you like Western classical). Any others that can be officially subscribed in India, or at least have a work around like Tidal?

Edit:
I did some search and realised of the various streams integrated in BS Node 2i, the following have hi-Res streaming which one can subscribe from India.
1. Hiresaudio (large catalogue)
2. Nugs.net (live shows)
3. Radio Paradiso (curated)

#Newlash09 and other BS users, how’s been your experience with any of the the above?

The following non Hi Res streams integrated in BS Node 2i are also available in India:
1. Spotify
2. Amazon Music
3. Tune-in
4. Calm Radio

 

[newlash09]

Hi Sachin..for what's it's worth. Iam among the minority who believe mqa makes a difference. I have a bluesound powernode which I use on tidal, and it makes a difference when streaming MQA tracks. However for that you will have to use the inbuilt dac of the bluesound node 2i as Iam not sure if the schiit can process the mqa after first unfolding in the bluesound streamer. And the bluesound app is robust and stable. So if streaming from internet is your priority, then the bluesound node2i is a great fit . All the best...

 

[newlash09]

Hi Sachin..for what's it's worth. Iam among the minority who believe mqa makes a difference. I have a bluesound powernode which I use on tidal, and it makes a difference when streaming MQA tracks. However for that you will have to use the inbuilt dac of the bluesound node 2i as Iam not sure if the schiit can process the mqa after first unfolding in the bluesound streamer. And the bluesound app is robust and stable. So if streaming from internet is your priority, then the bluesound node2i is a great fit . All the best...

 

[haisaikat]

@SachinChavan why don't you download the tidal app first on windows pc and try get trial subscription to test out the library and MQA streaming. Also try Quobuz. If you are betting your buy in these services better check their streams and library first. Fur PC output use usb in your dac

 

[Deleted member 15865]

@SachinChavan why don't you download the tidal app first on windows pc and try get trial subscription to test out the library and MQA streaming. Also try Quobuz. If you are betting your buy in these services better check their streams and library first. Fur PC output use usb in your dac

Saikat, thanks. I’ve downloaded the Tidal app and playing through my MacBookPro connected by USB to my DAC and rest of the system. While it helps me evaluate the app’s UI and collection, I am not sure I’d be able to check the MQA streaming quality. Of course I tried MQA albums, but since my Bifrost DAC doesn’t support MQA unfolding, am I really listening to MQA quality? I don’t know! Unless I actually plug in a Hi-res streamer that has MQA enabled DAC, or a stand alone DAC that is MQA enabled, I cant be sure that I am hearing the actual MQA quality.

However, FWIW, I am seeing some differences between the MQA albums (played through MacBookPro and Bifrost VS the same played on CD through my CXC transport and the same Bifrost DAC. I am realising the following:

1. I am hearing more details in playing MQA than CD, the difference depending on the track. Tracks that have lot of recording complexity (eg rock) give out this additional detail than say a Jazz vocal. Also the overall presentation of MQA is more relaxed/in control than that of the CD.

2. CD sound is more organic, and the various pieces of the song (vocals, instruments, effects) blend in to give a holistic experience of the music as compared to the MQA I am playing. The hi-res MQA, though more detailed feels like the pieces are playing separately reducing the enjoyment factor. Also, the sound projection and holographicity/3Dness is better with CD than MQA. (Now, this difference is more acute in older albums like from the 70s, which I believe were analogue recorded (with LP as the target) for eg Fleetwood Mac’s ‘Rumours’ which I tried . It’s not as prominent in the albums of 00s and 10s (which were digitally recorded with CD/hires as the target) for eg Norah Jones ‘Come Away with Me’ and Beck’s ‘Sea Change’ which I tried). Also, the tonality of the instruments on CD is better (correct) sounding than that of MQA.

In short, the hi-res suits ‘analytical listening’ better while the CD is better to ‘experience the music’

So I am kind of undecided if Hi-res is something I want to go for. But I believe that more newer albums would play better in Hi-res as the point 1 above score over point 2 for them. But looking at the price difference between say comparable non hi res (Sonos Connect) and Hi-res (Bluesound Node 2i) streamers - about Rs 30k additional for the latter, might be worth to have the option of streaming HiRes especially for contemporary and future music. (I don’t think it’s right to compare options like Chromecast Audio and Apple TV with these full-blooded streamers with their UI, software and native support for various streams.)

What I wouldn’t do, is look for Hi-res versions of the older classics from 70s and earlier. My CDs seem to be unsubstitutable there. I’d stick the streaming to newer tracks. What I wouldn’t also do is subscribe to Tidal at its current price point ($19.99 pm) and wait for an India launch where it might get priced comparable to Netflix HD (Rs 499-699 pm). Till then, I might not use the hi-res abilities of the hi-res player, limiting it to a couple of low priced subscriptions or free hi-res services (eg. Idagio, Radio Paradiso) which may not be MQA, but CD quality.

But note that’s this testing was subject to the DAC’s limitation as stated upfront. I shall update it once I listen to MQA through the actual MQA-capable hi-res streamer.

 

[Deleted member 15865]

Null

 

[Rajeshh]

@SachinChavan If you are looking at a pure streamer without a DAC, consider the Microrendu or Ultrarendu, I use a ultrarendu with Tidal & Roon & I am very happy with it, I think its one of the best value streamer out there.
I was using an ELAC Discovery before, the Ultrarendu is a cut above and I can hear a lot more details with that elusive Pace & rhythm (PRAT) quality.

 

[Deleted member 15865]

Ok, I further did another experiment. I heard the same song, Beck’s ‘The Golden Age’, back to back, on my system in three different formats:

1. CD played through my CD transport
2. MQA streamed through Tidal, and
3. Non MQA streamed through Tidal


And it only confirmed what I wrote in message above. This time I also had my wife to listen who also had similar observations.

1. The CD experience is the most emotive and engaging. The sound is more organic, holographic and instrument tones as well as Beck’s voice lot more real-life.

2. The MQA version on Tidal had definitely more detail. It is also more relaxed and in control. But it doesn’t draw in the listener like the above (CD), and lacks the depth of of sound of the CD. It is still enjoyable, and the difference may not be as perceivable on non-tube amp system. The additional detail surely brings out the textures in the drums and the guitar better. Hopefully this gets further better with MQA enabled DAC of Hi-res streamers.

3. The non-MQA version on Tidal was the worst of all the three, by far. I am guessing it is still CD resolution (and not compressed). It possesses neither the benefits of either 1 or 2 above. It’s plain as well as non detailed. So, conclusion: Tidal streaming is not worth for me if not MQA.

 

[haisaikat]

Thanks for checking out the options and posting your feedbacks @SachinChavan . One information I wanted to share is that last I knew the windows TIDAL app only supported MQA not sure if they have added the maxis version to this list. However windows tends to convert the MQA upto 24/192 . So if you have a window pc out there I would suggest to try using that if possible. Now the question comes to your genres of liking, if they are mostly on CDs and not in MQA the. Tidal alternative is Quobuz, if you have an option do try it out too.

 

[Deleted member 15865]

Here’s some info I found on net:

“tidal software does the first unfold from 48 KHz to 96 KHz, then it’s up to the MQA enabled DAC to unfold to 192 or 384 kHz depending on the source recording.”

So in my experiment above, I was hearing at 96 KHz. The MQA enabled streamer DAC could probably unfold it further... giving better results.

 

[Deleted member 15865]

Okay, here’s what I finally went for. And yes, it was a surprise for me. And the solution was always in front of me, but never explored. And cost? Zero, Nothing. Nada.

Now, let me tell you that this is a contextual, person specific solution for me. Not applicable to everyone, unless your equipment and needs match mine.

So, firstly, I analysed what are the ‘jobs’ that an audiophile user wants to get done for which one purchase a network steamer? And I could list four. All four to be done without connecting cables, and over wi-fi.

1. ‘Listening to’ to your local collection (e.g. ripped CDs on FLAC or purchased hi-res/AFLAC/mp3 files) on your home stereo system.
2. ‘Listening to’ music from streaming apps (Hires or CD quality of compressed) on your home stereo system. Understand that ‘listening to’ here means intent listening of a particular track or album which you like.
3. Exploring newer music (which you may not know of yet) through internet radio streams as well as app based smart suggestions by studying your listening preferences. And doing this on your stereo system.
4. Multi-room audio casting.

For me, in particular, 1 above was never a need. I love listening to my large, well curated CD collection through my CD transport. One, I love engaging physically with the CDs, as well as I dote on the sound quality of these CDs (most imported good prints).

Point 2 above is a need of mine . But after I tried out Tidal (impressions in comments above) I concluded I preferred the sound quality from my CDs (and transport) far more than what I heard from both lossless and MQA versions. Definitely paying a few thousand grand extra for hi-res streamer and substantial subscription fee for hi-res streaming was not worth. I could use that amount to add a couple of CDs every month to my collection. For intent listening, none of these options were as good as the sound from my CDs. So, as of now, hi-res streaming is not good enough for me. As for mp3 streaming, I don’t have to invest in a hi-res streamer.

The need 3 above (exploring newer music) is a very important need for me. But I realise this gets reasonably well served in the solution I eventually am going with. With some extras.

Multi-room casting was never a need of mine. Can’t say about future, but even then I need only multiroom speakers and not necessarily streamer to achieve the same.

So, essentially I am left only with the third job above. The other three are either not my needs (1 and 4) or there’s no solution in the market that pleases me (for 2)

Okay, so what did I discover as a very elegant, already existing solution to my real needs? I know it won’t suprise many of you, but it did me - My beloved Apple TV 4th generation - one of my most used devices at home.

What I tried yesterday, purely on a whim, worked like a charm. I connected the RCA interconnect from my Plasma TV to which the Apple TV is connected with HDMI, and put the other ends of the RCA interconnect into spare ports of my preamp. I was all the while skeptic of the sound quality it can give me. Then I opened Apple Music app on the Apple TV, turned down my TV volume completely, and played Norah Jones. I had to turn up the volume on the preamp more than usual (11 o clock instead of 9). But the sound I got was nothing less than the quality I get when I connect the iPad through USB to my DAC on the same system. At least I couldn’t perceive any difference. Nor could my wife. Probably, the DAC (need to check which one they have) and audio processing in my Panasonic Plasma (ST 50) is of a good quality. And there were some extras....

Firstly, I could control playback with the Apple TV remote, and didn’t have to necessarily use a phone or pad like for the network streamers. That’s something I value. Secondly, I could see the album art on the big screen. Even the lyrics. And that’s a big plus over seeing the same on even an iPad, especially when more than one person are listening together. It’s a delightful experience too.

Of course I’d have some limitations even for the sole need (no. 2) I realised I have. I am limited to the apps on Apple TV for this, But then I can always AirPlay from my iPad the apps which aren’t on my Apple TV. That would be what I would have done with a streamer too. And AirPlay supports up to lossless CD quality, so even CD quality radios like Radio Paradise and apps like Idagio would play well - to be checked. Another limitation that I have to put in my TV every time I want to listen to online music. But the large display as mentioned above adds the the experience. I can always use the iPad to cast to my Apple TV and turn off the plasma screen as long as the TV itself is on.

Now, this solution may not apply to everyone. For you the need 1 and 4 above may be important, which is not for me. And to your ears the Tidal MQA may sound better than CD (or you may not prefer using CDs). So you may still go for a hi-res streamer to meet your need 2. Not me, I’ve concluded CD sounds better than Tidal MQA at least in my system and to my ears (also verified by my non-audiophile wife and audiophile nephew as well as FM Hari Iyer to whom I gave back to back auditionings separately).

But if your need matches mine, you might benefit from my experiences and decision logic. If not, your mileage may vary. As for me, I am happy. Clarity of one’s real needs helps.

P.S Those of you interested in the ‘Jobs to be done’ framework can read this groundbreaking article on HBR. We use this framework successfully in helping our business clients evolve their product strategies. But here I tried applying it to a customer situation - making better purchase (product selection) decision.

The Customer-Centered Innovation Map

Reprint: R0805H We all know that people “hire” products and services to get a job done. Surgeons hire scalpels to dissect soft tissue. Janitors hire soap dispensers and paper towels to remove grime from their hands. To find ways to innovate, it’s critical to deconstruct the job the customer is...

hbr.org

 

[Deleted member 15865]

Ok, I found some more settings in my TV which help improve the sound further (more focus, separation and depth) in streaming through the Apple TV. Firstly, I deselected the ‘Pro surrround sound’ which doesn’t make sense in pure stereo situation. That removed the slight boom that was there. Secondly I selected the Volume control option of ‘Audio Out (TV off)’ instead of ‘TV’ or ‘TV or Audio Out’. This brought the above mentioned improvements in the streamed sound. Pics attached.

An update: I earlier said that the Apple TV steamed sound is as good as when I play from iPad through USB to DAC. But on further listening, i revise this. The former is about 80% the sound quality of the latter. You sense the difference (slightly more detail and better decay) only when you play both back to back and listen intently. The Apple TV streamed sound is pretty good enough on its own for causal music exploration (need 3 above).

Well, it’s possible that I may eventually go for a streamer - to not lose that 20% above and save me the effort of putting on theTV and changing the preamp input selector every time I want to listen to streamed audio. But it still was worth establishing that Apple TV based streaming via the TV onto the stereo system provides quite capable sound. Some without the budget for net streamer can still find the value in this low cost solution.