Setting M97xE cartridge on technics SL-1700 turn table

[anm]

I have the TT fixed, and the shure cart is with me. I am ready to dive deep into cartridge adjustment. Looking forwards for all the help. Will update this first post to keep people updated.

11 May 2010
========
Here goes the list of adjustments required, as per my little research:

1. VTF (sounds close to WTF) - this is the weight with which stylus presses the record. I have purchased SGF-2 stylus force gauge. I think I will adjust with the brush down. 1.5 gm weight??

2. overhang

3. alignment (aren't 2&3 same?) with protractors.

4. VTA - not sure how to do this on 1700. Seems impossible?

5. azimuth - no idea how to do this.

Last. Electrical stuff - as per what I read about this cart, 47k impedance may not give the best performance. The phono should has approx 65k impedance for best performance. I think this would come at the end of the exercise. Since it is a lyrita, I would request Viren to adjust this part.

Please add more. I think I shall start a new thread, as it may help others too to adjust cart.

 

[anm]

Related readings

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/frr.pl?ranlg&1182048340&&&/Shure-M97xE-Cartridge-

Suggested by Shaizada - http://www.audiophilia.com/features/cartridge_setup.htm

 

[anm]

where are the vinyl experts?
shaizada where r u?

 

[shaizada]

Just got your PM Anant. I'll post a little later....I've been quite busy lately so need to tie up a few things. I'll chime in a little later.

In the meantime, read this stuff:

A Beginner's Guide to Cartridge Setup

 

[myriad]

I have the TT fixed, and the shure cart is with me. I am ready to dive deep into cartridge adjustment. Looking forwards for all the help. Will update this first post to keep people updated.

11 May 2010
========
Here goes the list of adjustments required, as per my little research:

1. VTF (sounds close to WTF) - this is the weight with which stylus presses the record. I have purchased SGF-2 stylus force gauge. I think I will adjust with the brush down. 1.5 gm weight??

2. overhang

3. alignment (aren't 2&3 same?) with protractors.

4. VTA - not sure how to do this on 1700. Seems impossible?

5. azimuth - no idea how to do this.

Last. Electrical stuff - as per what I read about this cart, 47k impedance may not give the best performance. The phono should has approx 65k impedance for best performance. I think this would come at the end of the exercise. Since it is a lyrita, I would request Viren to adjust this part.

Please add more. I think I shall start a new thread, as it may help others too to adjust cart.

Hello anm,
I think you cannot do VTA and azimuth on SL1700.
Regarding 97xE, you need 1.25g VTF and 1.75g with brush down. Recommended load is 47k in parellel with 250pf.
Regards

 

[anm]

what is the order (in inches or cms) for the VTA adjustment? Will a replacement mat be able to help? I guess the base of the tone arm needs to be higher than the tip. Is that correct understanding?

 

[myriad]

what is the order (in inches or cms) for the VTA adjustment? Will a replacement mat be able to help? I guess the base of the tone arm needs to be higher than the tip. Is that correct understanding?

When you rest the needle on record the tonearm should be parallel. You can check this by any measuring scale.
You can decrease the VTA with thicker mat.
You first check out whether you need to increase or decrease the VTA.
Regards

 

[G401fan]

See if you can find a tiny lightweight circular spirit level at a good hardware store. (They're also available from online stores like Needledoctor).

Place it on top of the headshell (as close to the front as it will go), and lower the arm onto the record. The bubble should be centred, which would give you the optimum VTA. Don't bother with suggestions to keep the rear of the tone arm a bit lower than the front - they're for obsessives only. In any case, I don't think you can fiddle with tonearm height on the stock 1700 arm.

You may be able to adjust azimuth (if off, as detected by the same spirit level) by a slight twist on the headshell to the appropriate side. On SME arms that's how it's done.

If the headshell has slots for the mounting screws, then you can slide the cartridge front or back to adjust for tracking error, with a good protractor that you could download from vinylengine.

VTF, azimuth and tracking angle, that's all that's really important.

rgds

 

[shaizada]

Anant,

Frankly, if you want to set it up correctly, the best thing would be to talk to a knowledgeable person in Delhi who you can trust to know his analog stuff. Take the table to him and learn with him step by step. That is the BEST way to do this. Then you can learn visually and understand what is going on.

Why not reach out to Viren Bakshi and see if he can help you out. Maybe you can take him out to dinner as a token of thanks or something like that.

Learning from someone who knows as opposed to reading/learning from the web are VERY different things. Please give it some thought....

Thats what I would do if I were in your situation.

Finally ALL settings matter as when one setting is changed, you have to go and recheck the other settings again as they are all interdependent.

 

[anm]

thanks G401fan! Shaizada, that is a very good idea and definitely it is in my list of ToDos. I will invite him for a breakfast on a weekend

 

[stevieboy]

1. VTF (sounds close to WTF) - this is the weight with which stylus presses the record. I have purchased SGF-2 stylus force gauge. I think I will adjust with the brush down. 1.5 gm weight??

generally more force within the limits prescribed by your cart is better, since the stylus with seat more firmly in the groove and not bounce around causing groove damage.

related to point 4, if you cannot adjust vta and i think you can't on the sl 1700, setting the vtf to a higher downforce has a bit of the effect of slightly lowering your tonearm at the pivot, more bass, less treble.

2. overhang

ignore. this is basically how far ahead of the spindle your stylus tip is. ignore cos your cart alignment gauge will get things right for you.

3. alignment (aren't 2&3 same?) with protractors.

alignment is basically
1. getting the stylus on the two null points of your alignment protractor or the curve is you have an arc protractor
2. getting the offset angle correct ie how much you have to turn your cart left or right in the headshell to get it parallel to the lines on the alignment cart.
3. getting the overhang and effective length correct there's another length but i just cant can't get it right now... its imp if you use a custom made protractor so you don't have to worry.

4. VTA - not sure how to do this on 1700. Seems impossible?

see my reply in point 1 above. for more details log onto vinylengine and download the manual for your table. best bet.


5. azimuth - no idea how to do this.

this is how vertical the stylus tip is when seated on the vinyl. you can use a thin mirror, place the cart down on it and see if it and it's reflection are perpendicular. i think you can adjust this by rotating the cart headshell in the socket connecting it to the arm left or right. there should be a collar at the
joint.

the best cart adjustment guide i have come across is the sumiko blackbird manual downloadable from the sumiko website. my previous table owner seconded it and had also recommended it to me. check myriad's thread i had written some suggestions there also.

regards and all the best!

 

[avidyarthy]

Also try speaking to Kalam again.

The shop proprietor also owns a Technics, thats what Kalam had informed me. So, he might know what to do.

Else, Mr. Bakshi should be the best bet.

 

[mahiruha]

Hi Anant,
I think you should first give it a go yourself and there will be mistakes but the learnings you will get from those mistakes will help you in future. The first thing you need is a good bubble level to check if your turntable is level. and then you just follow rest of the stuff as mentioned by others. The one very important thing is to see if your tonearm is level when you put the stylus on the record surface. For that it is best to make a small scale which you can easily do by printing a scale from internet cut it and paste it on a rigid visitng card. You can use that scale at various points on the tone arm to see if you are getting the same reading. The azimuth is bit tricky. You need a small mirror and and magnifying glass of at least 10x maginification. Just rest the stylus on a mirror and check with the magnifying glass if tip and and its shadow are in a straight line.To set up the proper overhang and tracking angle you need a protractor. you need to read the manul of your TT to see what basic protractor you can use for your turntable. You basically need something that has two null points. There are also other stuff but don't worry too much about them just set it up and enjoy your music.
Thanks.
A good video is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OpNcXSdSj4

 

[anm]

thanks everyone. There is a 2 point protractor included with shure cart. Now I am worried about how the hell will I figure out what edges of cart to align to these parallel lines.
A stupid question - after I align for point 1, I will have to rotate the protractor a little to be able to land the tip on point 2. I guess this is what I will have to do?

 

[anm]

oh I didn't get to meet him then maybe. There was a guy Viplav who came there for few mins. I can try asking how to setup VTA and azimuth.
I think the tool I need is a very light weight bubble.

Also try speaking to Kalam again.

The shop proprietor also owns a Technics, thats what Kalam had informed me. So, he might know what to do.

Else, Mr. Bakshi should be the best bet.

The bubble should be centred, which would give you the optimum VTA.

ok - so do u mean that the cart itself would have cantilever at an angle so that VTA is correct if tonearm is parallel to the record surface?

 

[anm]

ok - what parameters can I change (I guess only the weight) to adjust some sound - if I find it having less bass, then I should increase the tracking force - right?

 

[stevieboy]

thanks everyone. There is a 2 point protractor included with shure cart. Now I am worried about how the hell will I figure out what edges of cart to align to these parallel lines.
A stupid question - after I align for point 1, I will have to rotate the protractor a little to be able to land the tip on point 2. I guess this is what I will have to do?

yes anm,

you'll have to rotate the platter with the protractor on it to have the stylus be able to land on the second null point.

align the outer edges of your cart if they're straight or the ideal is aligning your cantilever - the tube holding the stylus tip - in a straight line with a reference line on the protractor that extends on either side of the spot you're putting the stylus down on. if you don't have this line, use any of the parallel lines printed to align the stylus. remember cart bodies are not always parallel to stylus so the goal is adjusting the stylus not the body.

yes if less bass then add a tad of downforce, within your cart limits but!

don't worry too much, your major headache will be ensuring the sound from the inner grooves doesn't sound too bad. a few iterations over time and you'll get it right. take a few weeks to adjust listen then adjust again. don't hurry it.

there's the school of thought that the arm ought to be parallel, i prefer trying to get a little negative rake, the tonearm slightly lower than the front. all a matter of listening to see when you arrive at a sound that's full with both bass and treble balanced.

regards

 

[anm]

damn! I can't edit the first post.
anyways

Update 16 May 2010
===============
So I did the easiest thing. Invited Viren this morning. But the power went out just 2 mins before he knocked. Noida is facing some serious power issues. Fri night the inverter could not keep up and we slept in the lawn.
Well, so we decided that to save our sunday morning we should go to Delhi (where else but Viren's house).
He had all the tools - a protractor cut on a mirror strip. Bubble for balancing the table. I watched while he replaced the cart and reattached the 4 wires. We adjusted for vtf with the shure weight gauge, alignment with protractor, anti skating, and gave a miss to vta and azimuth as there didn't seem to be a straightforward way of doing that. This alone took more than a hour, and then we decided to listen. It sounded quite clean, dynamic and balanced on first listen itself. So, we decided that let us listen to this setting and take further steps if it needs tweaking. We connected to the lyrita phono, feeding the lyrita integrated set amp, and single driver harmony speakers. We spun a jazz vinyl from Viren's huge collection and the sound was damn good - dymanic and crisp. Piano sounded great. Bass guitar in the background also sounded right. Then we spun a Jagjeet Singh album to check the vocals. Again pretty good. Viren liked the cart and I invite him to post his impressions.
Came back home, put on a record, it played for a second and went off. I put the arm back, moved the brush and put it back on the record. Pretty soon I realized there is no sound from right channel!!! Tragedy. Tried cdp, and it played perfectly from both channels! Worries and panicked, called Viren and he said the connections must be loose. The condition of RCA on the wires is not great. So I tried pushing them back, and the sound is coming out of both channels fine.
So, enjoying some music right now. Buddy Tate Meets Dollar Brand! Quite dynamic. Will play more records. Right now it is playing on JBL speakers, but I have a hunch that it would sound more magical on the smgs. Need to bring them out from their hiding!

 

[anm]

another OT update - I also listened to Viren's upcoming DAC very briefly. He put up a female vocal song, using his CDP analog out. I was sure, as usual, I would not be able to hear any differences. Then he switched, and earlier vocals which I thought were pretty flat and bland, suddenly had emotions and the voice was more dynamic. Hope to have an extended listening session some day.

 

[stevieboy]

congrats anm! good to know you're finally enjoying your turntable!