Solid State Power Amps That Sound Like Tubes

[heliumflight]

Hi Folks,

After 20 years playing with all types of tubes from SET to PP, I finally bit the bullet and switched back to solid state to get the best of both worlds.

This thread is of personal experiences and no bashing which is better of the lot. My experiences are that the sound of tubes and the sound of solid state are not converging and are clearly distinguishable. Tubes have never, don't, and will never sound like solid state. If you want tube sound to be warm and inviting for long listening periods with no listener fatigue, then get a tube amp. But along with this do keep in mind there comes along free woolly bass. After changing so many SS amps, the closest approach to the tube sound with the attack of bass was that of vintage Quad 405 MK2.

Please feel free to share your experiences.

HiFi Rig: ASI Liveline Power cable + Cambridge Audio Cxn + Quad 405 MK2 + ASI Liveline Reference Interconnects + Piega Classic 3.0

 

[ONEMANARMY]

Tube pre and SS power

On the topic of which SS amps come closest to tubes, I would put the venerable Threshold SA1s right at the top.

From personal listening experience and in my humble opinion.

 

[jmascreen]

I find the quad 306 sounds similar however the F5T V2 sounds more similar to tubes

 

[shafic]

I have owned some nice vintage tube as well as SS amps in the past, Quad 45/405, 33/303, II/22... etc etc. Still I have few of them.
I like the mid-range magic of the Scott lk-72b ( Ampex kit), the tight bass of the humble Philips AG 9015 and the smooth highs of the Dual CV 40.

But the nice combination of the Lyrita tube pre and SS McIntosh MC 2505 is something special to me.

 

[bornfi]

Though I have 0 experience with tube gears but based on some inklings here and there on some reviews, I can say Karan Acoustics and Lavardin.

 

[square_wave]

SS better with bass ? I used think on similar lines in the past. But over the years, I have realized that all these things are very setup, design and synergy related. If one were to confine ourselves to a few amps and speaker combinations that we have come across and in our own room with its peculiar acoustics, then we may come to a peculiar set of conclusions.

I have heard some setups, especially horns and high efficiency speakers on tubes that does not have woolly bass. They have tight and textured bass. I have also heard solid state amps on non optimal speakers and rooms where the bass is woolly. Vice versa situations too. The game of audio is all about synergy and setup.

However, there is always a budget or some other set of constraints involved. This means that for a certain amount of budget and certain size / type of speaker and in a particular room, what should I buy for the tightest bass ? Maybe solid state ! For a different room with a different speaker, maybe tubes work better. You never know!

Technically speaking solid state is supposed to be better with bass. But that is an academic discussion. If money is no object, then what amp will technically produce better bass ? Maybe SS. But real life situations are quite different.

 

[rikhav]

SS better with bass ? I used think on similar lines in the past. But over the years, I have realized that all these things are very setup, design and synergy related. If one were to confine ourselves to a few amps and speaker combinations that we have come across and in our own room with its peculiar acoustics, then we may come to a peculiar set of conclusions.

I have heard some setups, especially horns and high efficiency speakers on tubes that does not have woolly bass. They have tight and textured bass. I have also heard solid state amps on non optimal speakers and rooms where the bass is woolly. Vice versa situations too. The game of audio is all about synergy and setup.

However, there is always a budget or some other set of constraints involved. This means that for a certain amount of budget and certain size / type of speaker and in a particular room, what should I buy for the tightest bass ? Maybe solid state ! For a different room with a different speaker, maybe tubes work better. You never know!

Technically speaking solid state is supposed to be better with bass. But that is an academic discussion. If money is no object, then what amp will technically produce better bass ? Maybe SS. But real life situations are quite different.

Simple example is prem's setup
The 10 watt tube amp drives the JBLs so well and bass is super tight and goes very low
Best bass I have heard In any setup without any kind of active sub

 

[square_wave]

Regarding bass, a good headroom is always a plus. If you want that from tube then it gets expensive. Hence my take is large high sensitivity drivers for bass and coupled with solid state amps with great headroom.

And if it’s OB bass then there are some tricks to sound them great and dig deeper with no need of a sub.

If your speaker is sensitive and has a benign freq resp vs impedance curve, then you can get plenty headroom with tubes also. Yes, good tube designs can be a bit expensive. That is exactly the point I was trying to make with my original post. The right context is very important.

Wilson speakers in the house ? Well SS is the way to go. Playing with subwoofers? Big bad ass servo dual subs for your stereo in the right room ? Yeah, SS is the way to power em. But that is a different story!

 

[keith_correa]

If your speaker is sensitive and has a benign freq resp vs impedance curve, then you can get plenty headroom with tubes also.

What is a "benign" frequency response? How does one compare/match that with impedance to derive headroom? Am I missing something here or does this need re-wording?

 

[firearm12]

Hi Folks,

After 20 years playing with all types of tubes from SET to PP, I finally bit the bullet and switched back to solid state to get the best of both worlds.

This thread is of personal experiences and no bashing which is better of the lot. My experiences are that the sound of tubes and the sound of solid state are not converging and are clearly distinguishable. Tubes have never, don't, and will never sound like solid state. If you want tube sound to be warm and inviting for long listening periods with no listener fatigue, then get a tube amp. But along with this do keep in mind there comes along free woolly bass. After changing so many SS amps, the closest approach to the tube sound with the attack of bass was that of vintage Quad 405 MK2.

Please feel free to share your experiences.

HiFi Rig: ASI Liveline Power cable + Cambridge Audio Cxn + Quad 405 MK2 + ASI Liveline Reference Interconnects + Piega Classic 3.0

Sir, thanks for inviting me over last weekend to have a listen to your system. I would say don't bother with whether its tubes or a solid state, if you like it then nothing better than it, I think tubes can sound harsh and solid state can sound smooth as well depending on system synergy, design, cables used and room of course. I felt your system has a nice thick spacious tone to it which doesn't distort itself at very high volumes, that's one great thing. I was very impressed with the quad amp you have, especially the attack on the electric guitar and drums was fantastic. I was impressed with the the space and dynamics your system creates, shows your amp is pretty well matched with Piega's. I have listened to Hugh Masekela (The Coal Train) innumerable times and the chills it can give to the listener was clearly expressed on your system. The bright Piegas are tamed well and the last nail in the coffin would be to get a quad preamp and a little subdued dac. I believe fatigue only comes if you dont like your system and it doesnt work well, not from brightness or not using tubes, believe me I have lived with Naim and Dali Mentor menuets (that would be bright to many) and I absolutely love the pair no matter how bright it sounds. Happy listnening.

 

[firearm12]

No offense here but I am yet to come across a tube amp which sounds harsh. Have played over 7 different tube amps so far.

Wrong choice of word from my side, maybe I should have written 'tube amps can sound bad' instead of harsh, just meant to say that not everyone will like tube sound and not everyone will dislike solid state sound.

 

[arunthegr8]

I have had a great experience with Parasound JC-1's. They have a great damping factor for that tight bass which is a signature of SS amps but the upper end has the bloom of tubes thanks to John Curl's fantastic circuit design. It has been the stereophile award winner for years.

 

[square_wave]

What is a "benign" frequency response? How does one compare/match that with impedance to derive headroom? Am I missing something here or does this need re-wording?

Benign is industry jargon used while describing something as an “ easy load “. Hence my choice of the word. Things are far more complicated than saying that a certain speaker is X dB sensitive, so you could power it with a low wattage amp. Sensitivity, impedance vs freq curve, electrical phase..etc all link together to determine what the load is on the amplifier. This means that ample head room ( the feeling that amp has ample power while the load is operated through the entire frequency range ) is therefore linked to all these factors.. You can have a 95 db speaker which could technically be a easy load on a 10 watt tube amp. But what if the speaker dips to 1 or 2 ohms at a certain frequency ? Then you will need a tube amp which is build to operate smoothly under those circumstances. Which usually means more power reserves, better / bigger power supply design etc. This is easier to achieve with SS.

 

[heliumflight]

Sir, thanks for inviting me over last weekend to have a listen to your system. I would say don't bother with whether its tubes or a solid state, if you like it then nothing better than it, I think tubes can sound harsh and solid state can sound smooth as well depending on system synergy, design, cables used and room of course. I felt your system has a nice thick spacious tone to it which doesn't distort itself at very high volumes, that's one great thing. I was very impressed with the quad amp you have, especially the attack on the electric guitar and drums was fantastic. I was impressed with the the space and dynamics your system creates, shows your amp is pretty well matched with Piega's. I have listened to Hugh Masekela (The Coal Train) innumerable times and the chills it can give to the listener was clearly expressed on your system. The bright Piegas are tamed well and the last nail in the coffin would be to get a quad preamp and a little subdued dac. I believe fatigue only comes if you dont like your system and it doesnt work well, not from brightness or not using tubes, believe me I have lived with Naim and Dali Mentor menuets (that would be bright to many) and I absolutely love the pair no matter how bright it sounds. Happy listnening.

It was a pleasure hosting you & Vinay. Next time we will listen to Nils Lofgren - Keith Don't Go.

 

[coaltrain]

Not all tubes amps are created equal:
SE vs PP
Also contains some good info on speaker impedance and damping factor.

 

[square_wave]

@ Keith_correa, to understand the freq vs impedance curve see the dali's graph below. It does not go below 5 ohms at anywhere along the frequency sweep ( solid line ). The dashed line is the phase. Although this speaker is about 88db, it will be easy to drive.

 

[keith_correa]

Benign is industry jargon used while describing something as an “ easy load “. Hence my choice of the word. Things are far more complicated than saying that a certain speaker is X dB sensitive, so you could power it with a low wattage amp. Sensitivity, impedance vs freq curve, electrical phase..etc all link together to determine what the load is on the amplifier.

OK, it's "benign load" and not "benign FR". That's what got me all confused. I realize now what you actually wanted to say but...
FR has nothing to do with the "load" that you're referring to. Impedance [which varies across frequencies] does.

But what if the speaker dips to 1 or 2 ohms at a certain frequency ? Then you will need a tube amp which is build to operate smoothly under those circumstances. Which usually means more power reserves, better / bigger power supply design etc. This is easier to achieve with SS.

Humor me but I'm confused again! You're referring to relatively low impedances here so did you mean "easier to achieve with a tube amp" instead of "easier to achieve with SS"? Or did you mean more power reserves, better/bigger power supplies are easier to achieve with SS?

 

[keith_correa]

@ Keith_correa, to understand the freq vs impedance curve see the dali's graph below. It does not go below 5 ohms at anywhere along the frequency sweep ( solid line ). The dashed line is the phase. Although this speaker is about 88db, it will be easy to drive.

Thanks! I understand frequency, impedance and phase [I think].
It's your words that threw me.
Also, just saying, but a frequency sweep is different from frequency response.

 

[square_wave]

OK, it's "benign load" and not "benign FR". That's what got me all confused. I realize now what you actually wanted to say but...
FR has nothing to do with the "load" that you're referring to. Impedance [which varies across frequencies] does.

Humor me but I'm confused again! You're referring to relatively low impedances here so did you mean "easier to achieve with a tube amp" instead of "easier to achieve with SS"? Or did you mean more power reserves, better/bigger power supplies are easier to achieve with SS?

I don't think I will ever be able to clear your confusion

 

[coaltrain]

OK, it's "benign load" and not "benign FR". That's what got me all confused. I realize now what you actually wanted to say but...
FR has nothing to do with the "load" that you're referring to. Impedance [which varies across frequencies] does.

Humor me but I'm confused again! You're referring to relatively low impedances here so did you mean "easier to achieve with a tube amp" instead of "easier to achieve with SS"? Or did you mean more power reserves, better/bigger power supplies are easier to achieve with SS?

He means easier to achieve with a tube amp ‘that has a better power reserve’, not all tube amps in general.