subwoofer in a pure 2 channel music

[akd]

I have a separate (other than main costly stereo set up) budget 2 channel set up which I have carefully bought with the intention how close these budget systems can go to celebrated systems.

the system consists of Pro-ject Debut III (absolutely bare bone decent TT)+CA 540P preamp (again extreme low cost)+Norge 1000 gold (one can't think of a better amp at 11K)+Wharfedale 10.2 (though not very low cost but managed a decent deal new)

I have listened to it and quite satisfied with it, my taste is hindi LPs and I have quite a few right from 1950s

the mid and highs are adequate to my ears, but always felt bass is somewhat missing/lagging. what to do? I want to keep it low cost

I am not sure about a sub woofer in a 2 channel system, though technically such an addition should make a huge difference

1.with the addition - the speakers will be a 8"(sub)+6.5"(mid)+1"(high)
2.How to connect a powered sub with Norge 1000, I don't see anything other than pre-out port, upon query Mr. Bajaj didn't even reply

friends please write your views - my intention is to strengthen the low frequencies with minimum cost and a sub at around 12-15K is a good solution to me provided Norge 1000 accepts it.

Arnab

 

[hifiashok]

u will need an active xo if u want to be able to selectively feed the relevant frequencies to the commensurate drivers to avoid issues. so, the chain would be

source > active xo (op. #1: above 80Hz) > 1. amp > current speakers &
source > active xo (op. #2: below 80Hz) > 2. sub.

 

[Teja]

Easiest solution would be to get an active sub that will accept speaker level inputs. So your setup will be:

Source --> Norge --> Sub --> Wharfdales

Download the manual for an active sub-woofer (say MS Carnival 9 for example - Carnival 9 subwoofer / Carnival / Products / Mordaunt Short) and see the installation instructions and you will find the different ways in which a sub can be connected to an existing set-up. And in the MS C9 manual, the last option shows how to connect the sub if your amp doesn't have a pre-out.

Norge 1000 doesn't have a pre-out. It has a line-out that outputs at full volume, apparently for tape recording. I do not think it can be used for connecting the sub. If you are technically inclined, you could probably add a pre-out with little effort (the Norge 1000 circuits are simple enough), then you can just use a cheaper passive sub from the pre-out.

Good luck.

 

[GeorgeO]

First of all let me express my opinion that having a sub to augment your speakers is a good idea, and you should benefit from it.

It is not difficult to add a sub, use an RCA splitter at the line level input, and take the same signal that you feed into your amp into the sub amp. It is not necessary to have a separate sub woofer out.

 

[anm]

dear akd - both ashokji and teja have given best option. What Teja is suggesting is an inbuilt x-over in the powered sub.
You should do bass management - it is best not to send lower frq/ bass signals to main speakers.

Powered subs can takes peaker level inputs - so your power (or integrated) amp -> sub speaker -> stereo speakers.
Do you already have a sub in mind?

 

[jaudere]

My opinion is that the stereo speakers(10.2 in this case) should not be fed a signal coming through the sub.
The sub crossover will come in series with the cross over of 10.2 ,the resultant coil and cap values will change and this will give unexpected and probably unpleasant results. However this is my guess. I am not very sure how the speaker level input in a sub is internally handled.

The better option is pre out of norge>> line level input of an active sub. The 10.2 should be fed by norge through its speaker terminal directly and not through the sub to maintain purity of signal. This is what I may plan.
The speakers level signal if fed into the sub and then taken out from sub to main speakers, the signal has to pass through unnecessary path.


Most of active subwonders have built in variable low pass filters(a knob which varies the low pass frequency point). For combining with 10.2 , a low pass point around 60hz should be good.

The issue with this arrangement is the line level output (pre out) of most of the amps is fixed. So if you change volume on norge, the volume of sub woofer does not vary with it. This can become quite irritating if one has the habit of fiddling with the volume control of the amp frequently or the play list has mix of songs recorded at different volume levels which makes it mandatory to frequently change amp volume.

The answer to this problem is to have a sub with remote control. These are available but bit costly.
So the things are getting bit complicated. Isn't it?

 

[jls001]

If the subwoofer you have in mind has speaker level input, what Teja suggested is immensely do-able. In such a sub (eg: here page 6 of manual for the SubElectro SE200) you can wire up the left and right amp speaker outputs direct to the sub. But do be aware that fine tuning the cross over from main speaker to the sub so that the two integrate well sonically can be quite a task, but do-able.

 

[Krish82]

If the subwoofer you have in mind has speaker level input, what Teja suggested is immensely do-able. In such a sub (eg: here page 6 of manual for the SubElectro SE200) you can wire up the left and right amp speaker outputs direct to the sub. But do be aware that fine tuning the cross over from main speaker to the sub so that the two integrate well sonically can be quite a task, but do-able.

Exactly i currently use speaker level inputs to connect my Polk RTi A5 speakers to Onkyo HTR340 HTIB receiver which does not has a subwoofer pre out.
But another thing i want to add, though subwoofer may strengthen the lower end, lot of the low end will depend on the Room response and the nature of the subwoofer. If its not too musical it may drag some lower frequencies longer than required, Its always better to have woofer drivers in the L + R floor standers to have good 2 channel bass. Thats my opinion.

 

[akd]

friends, thanks for your inputs, here are the points

1. Norge 1000 has a line level out, I have tasted and it doesn't send full stereo signal, upon query Mr. Bajaj said "you can try this port as sub woofer L+R pre out", I am not sure about that. Moreover the amp has only one set of speaker terminal.

2. If the following path is used

Norge 1000 speaker level > SUB > WHF 10.2

then I am limited to those SUBs which have both speaker level input and output (WHF SUBs, Norge Sub do not have this, Polk PSW 110 has it)

3. My current signal path is

Pro-ject DebutIII > CA 540P > Norge 1000 (AUX port) & PC soundcard (for FLAC recording) using a splitter

and

PC > Nuforce muDAC (through USB) > Norge 1000 (DVD port) > WHF 10.2

so no chance of splitting the signal at 540P as its already done

4. I have in mind
WHF 10 SX
POLK PSW 110
NORGE SUB
want to stay below 15K, room size 12'x12'

So if Speaker level is selected only option left is POLK 110
if pre out is selected - am not sure Norge "line out" will work

another point is with a slight increase in budget (16-18K) I can get Norge, MS Carnival 8 and a few more flor standers, so pondering over them as well

I am slightly inclined towards a SUB as I have a separate set up

TT (Technics 1210)+preamp (CA 640P)+amp (HK 3490)+floor standers (JBL ES80) - which is a killer to my ears

but want to taste a budget separates

TT+Preamp+amp+Book shelves+SUB- all bare bone budget VFM stuff

Can anyone confirm me whether Norge 1000's line level out works as a L+R preout of a SUB? I want to use the SUB cross over only for the low end and rest the amp will do for 10.2s

Arnab

 

[akd]

I added the SUB POLK AUDIO PSW 110 in my PC set up which now stands

nuforce uDAC/Pro-ject Debut III+CA 540P->Norge 1000->WHF 10.2+PSW 110

observations: connected the SUB with speaker level input and unfiltered line in (from Norge 6.3mm headphone output)......the difference is negligible.......I think Norge uses resistor from the speaker output to provide headphone output

When speaker level input is used the SUB need not be turned on for the fronts to fire, that means input signal is directly fed to the output terminal, no processing or bass management (?)

Among a number tracks I could finalize the cross over point as around 87-90Hz with gain at 11 O'clock position

As I am using line-in input to the SUB from the headphone output of Norge the master vol of Norge amp adjusts everything which is mandatory - in some tracks the deep bass tends to rattle the windows

clarity, timing and ambient effects are excellent provided the original recording has bass lines, however I need to adjust for even better performance for the < 50 Hz range.

Overall I found this SUB to be adequate for my room (approx 140 Sq ft), I have particularly found WHF 10.2 to be a excellent performer and gels well with the SUB.

 

[entsurgeon]

what do u mean difference is negligible? have you purchased the sub?

 

[akd]

I have purchased and hooked it in two possible ways I mentioned. I experimented with at least 10 tracks and found there is hardly any difference in bass response from the two types of hooking up method. It appears to me that the speaker in and out in the SUB are directly connected, so no matter what hooking method one uses your fronts will get the same full range signal

 

[madhu_7]

Adding Sub to stereo is a good step to sonic bliss
Congrats
Wat is the damage incurred ?

 

[AMITNOIDA]

I have purchased and hooked it in two possible ways I mentioned. I experimented with at least 10 tracks and found there is hardly any difference in bass response from the two types of hooking up method. It appears to me that the speaker in and out in the SUB are directly connected, so no matter what hooking method one uses your fronts will get the same full range signal

@Akd,
I am also getting tempted. Have you put two subs (one in each channel) or only one sub? May please post the picture. Did you face any difficulty in finding the best placement of the sub?
Regards

 

[Kittu]

Adding Sub to stereo is a good step to sonic bliss
Congrats
Wat is the damage incurred ?

Did u buy SW-450?

 

[madhu_7]

No Kittu stalled for last week of feb :yahoo:

 

[akd]

2 SUBS!! is that at all required?? about positioning - I tested couple of locations and found corner of the room is marginally best. damage is 14K.

just finished doing a few tests
1.When Speaker level input is used cross over needs to be set around 120Hz with gain at 2 O'clock, the transition is fantastic
2.When line level input is used anything above 90Hz and gain 11 O'clock is overpowering
3.One can use crossover as 120 Hz and above but in that case gain should remain very low
4.boosting low range does not improve SQ for every song, only a few, though its a personal taste

Personally I don't like spending on a SUB for movies in comparison to music where bass notes coming from base guitar, piano, drums and keyboards are absolutely rich.

a few example of exceptional bass response in the original source for hindi OSTs

1.Pehla Nesha (Jo Jeeta Wohi Sikandar, Jatin Lalit, CD/LP) - bass drum is amazing
2.Aaj Ki Raat (Jagir, R.D.Burman, CD/LP) - amazing base guitar through out the track
3.Meri Zindagi (Aur Ek Prem Kahani, Illaiyaraja, CD) - keyboard/guitar rhythm in transition, it shakes the whole house
many more...

Planning to add Velodyne Impact 10 with my main set up (technics+HK+JBL FS) in future

Arnab

 

[kaushik]

If you want pure bliss of 2-channel , the sub will be expensive.
There is a speed factor or lag thathas to be in limit for the lowend filling
The bass part has to be covered 'in time' .

Most people miss this part and go by thump power or LF extension of sub .
As per as movies those are real specs but for music the sub has to fast so
that it fills the low end right in time.... such subs are little expensive .


So moral of the story , dont buy sub unless you are not sure if the target is 2 channel stereo , think why lyrithaaudio people did few months Rnd to add a sub to their speakers

 

[yugaaa]

Probably you could build one . There is an 8 inch driver avaliable with jeetubhai . All you need is a crossover which crosses at 100 hz . You can have 1 or 2 subs passively wired . If you are interested in can provide the network diagram for you

 

[cmsajith]

Getting inspired by Ashok's Zypher sub setup, I tried adding the sub to complement the ATCs. Result is pretty good.

I had crossed the sub eq at around 50-65Hz leaving the ATCs to handle the rest as the ATCs bass will be more accurate and tight. In my experience adding the sub made it a little more deep. Sub used is 15" Dayton in THT. Its really fast and performing very good for music (Sub has a sealed enclosure with tapped horn). There is no localisation and at the listening position I could only feel as the ATCs has got 15" woofers instead of 8".