Subwoofer sounds adequate/too much/too less periodcally

[gurujee]

Sorry, I am not sure how far I have put the thread title correctly.

I am using a Wharfedale D10 sealed sub for last 4 years. It is set at usual 80khz, small, LFE+Main, -8dB in Marantz SR 6008 AVR.

From time to time I have observed, at the same setting, the subwoofer sounds perfect for months, then all of a sudden for a period it sounds too much and overpowers the mids, so that i have to decrease the volume to -11db in AVR, then sometimes for a period it sounds too less that I go and check if the subwoofer is on or off.

I have googled that- the speaker cone sometimes reacts to extreme cold in winter. But this phenomena of my subwoofer continues through out the year. I dont assume it's a normal thing?

Is main voltage responsible, though I am quite sure our area is 99.9% time voltage fluctuation free. I am powering all the equipments Main>VGuard Crystal Plus Stabliser> Belkin. The chain is powering 43inch Plasma, AVR, Subwoofer, Firestick.

Needs some suggestions and guidance

 

[sandeepmohan]

I don't have the solution to your problem. Its a rather bizarre one.

I assume by 'small' you mean small main speakers? If Yes, why do you have this set to Small?

What is the crossover setting behind the sub woofer and how much gain have you dialed in?

The only issue I can think of is a case of the gain knob behind the sub acting funny or the sub going out of phase for whatever reason. Oxidation of the onboard controls can cause the sub to reduce or increase the response. You'll know this as you turn the knob. If there is unstable delivery in gain or some static noise is heard as you turn the knob, you can be sure its a dirty dial or knob.

 

[edjamesx]

Sometimes depends on Source , the Sub woofer might sound low or high . In your case are you facing this issue ir- respective of any source material ?.

SUB will not get effected and will not sound different with voltage fluctuations except It will shutdown/trip automatically when there's too much upper/lower voltage fluctuations. In your case you already have Voltage stabilizer so it will not be an issue.

Also check the Gain knob button in the SUB have any loose connections which reduces/increases SUB gain accidently. You can also measure SPL DB using mobile apps (SPL meter would be better) and check any change in the SUB SPL DB when you hear the difference.

Also check you are placing any new objects/things in the room when the sound changes. Placing any couch /chairs also can affect SUB woofer sound. Think about any alterations made in the rooms which affect SUB sound/ even placing different curtains also might affect SUB sound.

It may be funny , but it happened to me .My ears are filled with too much wax ,and i used to set Sub at very high DB then only was able to hear LFE sound /but high frequencies i was able to hear correctly , but at one point my members in my family complained about too much BASS from SUB but where it appears sounds normal/less for me . Then I cleaned my ears from ENT , then only i realized how much more DB i pumped in SUB. Then i reduced to default ,, and i was able to hear correctly. So check your ears as well.

Our ears are prone to change with different weather conditions which could affect hearing LFE sound.

Also you may need to check the room acoustics and do acoustics treatment if none of the solution works.

 

[gurujee]

I don't have the solution to your problem. Its a rather bizarre one.

I assume by 'small' you mean small main speakers? If Yes, why do you have this set to Small?

What is the crossover setting behind the sub woofer and how much gain have you dialed in?

The only issue I can think of is a case of the gain knob behind the sub acting funny or the sub going out of phase for whatever reason. Oxidation of the onboard controls can cause the sub to reduce or increase the response. You'll know this as you turn the knob. If there is unstable delivery in gain or some static noise is heard as you turn the knob, you can be sure its a dirty dial or knob.

Grateful for the reply. dirty knob thing has not crossed my mind. On the sub, crossover is set to full, gain is around 11am position. mains set to small, because lots of people on internet said so ! I have experimented with 'large', which gives me fuller sound and better low-end, but less detail, unrefined hi-frequencies.

I just checked the dials at the back, there was no audible static noise. I have cleaned thoroughly. Will run the audessy again and will check again.

Sometimes depends on Source , the Sub woofer might sound low or high . In your case are you facing this issue ir- respective of any source material ?.

SUB will not get effected and will not sound different with voltage fluctuations except It will shutdown/trip automatically when there's too much upper/lower voltage fluctuations. In your case you already have Voltage stabilizer so it will not be an issue.

Also check the Gain knob button in the SUB have any loose connections which reduces/increases SUB gain accidently. You can also measure SPL DB using mobile apps (SPL meter would be better) and check any change in the SUB SPL DB when you hear the difference.

Also check you are placing any new objects/things in the room when the sound changes. Placing any couch /chairs also can affect SUB woofer sound. Think about any alterations made in the rooms which affect SUB sound/ even placing different curtains also might affect SUB sound.

It may be funny , but it happened to me .My ears are filled with too much wax ,and i used to set Sub at very high DB then only was able to hear LFE sound /but high frequencies i was able to hear correctly , but at one point my members in my family complained about too much BASS from SUB but where it appears sounds normal/less for me . Then I cleaned my ears from ENT , then only i realized how much more DB i pumped in SUB. Then i reduced to default ,, and i was able to hear correctly. So check your ears as well.

Our ears are prone to change with different weather conditions which could affect hearing LFE sound.

Also you may need to check the room acoustics and do acoustics treatment if none of the solution works.

he he. thanks a ton for the reply. great suggestion regarding the SPL meter. I will definitely do it to check whether it is really the sub or my mood or my ears. I can related to weather being a temp-modifier of ear's hearing abilities. Great insights, thanks so much.

 

[sandeepmohan]

On the sub, crossover is set to full, gain is around 11am position. mains set to small, because lots of people on internet said so

The internet has good and bad information. You need to make a sound decision.

Are your speakers large or small (you don't need the internet to answer this)? A Pioneer FS52 is by no means 'Small'. Thats wrong information going into your receiver which means the speaker is not going to perform or do what it can do.

You need to blend the sound coming out of your main speakers and the sub woofer. Not cut off all low frequency from the Mains, just because you have a sub woofer.

Set the gain dial behind the sub to the 2pm position, mains as Large and re run your calibration. I guess you can save multiple profiles. Don't make instant decisions and change parameters (Unless it sounds absolutely bad). Spend time listening and then make change.

At 4 years of age, its unlikely that dirt can get in to the knobs. I highlighted that as something that could potentially cause the issue.

 

[ssf]

I am using a Wharfedale D10 sealed sub for last 4 years. It is set at usual 80khz, small, LFE+Main, -8dB in Marantz SR 6008 AVR.

LFE+Main is used only when the speakers are set to large It does not make any difference if the speakers are set to small. When the speakers are set to 'Large', all frequencies are sent to the speakers and none go to the sub. If one wants frequencies below the cut-off (crossover) frequencies to go to the sub as well, then one needs to set the speakers to Large and set LFE+Main. This will mean that the speakers will get the full range signal and the sub will get the signal below the frequency set in bass management.

The advantage of setting speakers to small is that the speaker will not be given the frequencies that it cannot reproduce resulting in lower distortion. Setting the speakers to small will also reduce the load on the receiver as the low frequencies will now be handled by the sub which has its own amp.

One could play around with the cut off frequency depending on what the speakers can handle. Say, the specs state that the frequency range of the speaker is 40 Hz to 20 Khz (your speakers) one could set the crossover to 50 hz or 60 Hz or 80 Hz and see which sounds better. If the speakers are set to large, it will not be able to handle the frequencies below 40 Hz and those frequencies will be lost unless LFE+Mains is set, in which will result in double bass and cause other issues as well.

I would recommend setting the speakers to small and playing around with the crossover setting to see which works best for you.

 

[sandeepmohan]

If the speakers are set to large, it will not be able to handle the frequencies below 40 Hz and those frequencies will be lost unless LFE+Mains is set, in which will result in double bass and cause other issues as well.

This is not good advice. I am sorry.
Can you elaborate on the so called 'other' issues, please?
The only situation you'll find Double bass is when your speakers are out of sync.
If a loudspeaker cannot handle frequencies it was designed for, then you've got a poorly designed speaker.
Load on your amplifier/receiver should be the least of your worries.

The goal with a sub woofer is to blend, offer support to your main speakers. Not take away all low frequency from your main speakers.

The only situation you'd want to allow the sub woofer to take over low frequency is if your main speakers are incapable of handling bass. Usually with stand mounts or satellites, or, if you want your setup to sound like a discotheque.

A floor stand speaker like the FM's Pioneer is more than capable of reproducing bass as low as 50Hz (possibly lower). Why would you cancel out the low frequency capability of the speaker completely? You end up with a dead or hollow spot when you steer all bass towards the sub woofer. It can also end up being localized.

A bass, mid-bass speaker driver on a floor stand speaker has a level of frequency capability that a sub can't produce in the same way the main speaker can.

When you listen to music in a sub woofer enabled setup, you should not be able to tell there is a sub in the room. It should disappear, yet you hear, feel as though the bass is being reproduced by your Mains.

It takes time and effort to get it right. Once you do, its heaven.

 

[drkrack]

It's the Source mostly, Some Titles are differently mastered in regards to bass. the Temperature variations shouldn't be very obvious.

Try with a Genuine Bluray disk on BDP and see, if the bass is adequate then there's no big issue, only fine adjustments need to be made. Next Try with good Netflix title (I use 6 Underground or Jurassic Park new or Godzilla vs Kong etc).

If the Bluray doesn’t Sound Good enough, try rerunning the Audessey and Later Increasing the Gain accordingly. I'm assuming the Sub Power is adequate for Room dimensions.

 

[ssf]

This is not good advice. I am sorry.

Setting the speakers to large is not good advice. Am sure you are posting based on your knowledge and experiences and I am posting based on mine. The OP can read both, try out both and decide for himself.

Can you elaborate on the so called 'other' issues, please?

The only situation you'll find Double bass is when your speakers are out of sync.
If a loudspeaker cannot handle frequencies it was designed for, then you've got a poorly designed speaker.
Load on your amplifier/receiver should be the least of your worries.

I will leave a few links for the OP to read. Please go through them too even if you don't agree with what is being said.

https://ask.audyssey.com/hc/en-us/articles/212347523-Bass-Management-and-LFE-NOT-the-same-thing-
https://ask.audyssey.com/hc/en-us/sections/202387323-Audyssey-101
https://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-setup/bass-management-basics-2013-settings-made-simple

The goal with a sub woofer is to blend, offer support to your main speakers. Not take away all low frequency from your main speakers.

Agree. Hence, the suggestion to set the speakers to small and play with the crossovers which can be set as low as desired.

The only situation you'd want to allow the sub woofer to take over low frequency is if your main speakers are incapable of handling bass. Usually with stand mounts or satellites, or, if you want your setup to sound like a discotheque.

A floor stand speaker like the FM's Pioneer is more than capable of reproducing bass as low as 50Hz (possibly lower). Why would you cancel out the low frequency capability of the speaker completely? You end up with a dead or hollow spot when you steer all bass towards the sub woofer. It can also end up being localized.

Please read above. Even if the speakers are set to small, there will not be any cancelling out of low frequencies of the speaker as the crossover can be set to the desired frequency which can be as low as the low frequency handling capacity of the speaker.

A bass, mid-bass speaker driver on a floor stand speaker has a level of frequency capability that a sub can't produce in the same way the main speaker can.

When you listen to music in a sub woofer enabled setup, you should not be able to tell there is a sub in the room. It should disappear, yet you hear, feel as though the bass is being reproduced by your Mains.

It takes time and effort to get it right. Once you do, its heaven.

Agree with the above which can be achieved by keeping the speakers small and setting the appropriate crossover.

From reading you posts, I get the feeling that you are more of a 2 channel enthusiast than a HT one. A receiver with the ability to crossover the frequencies between the speakers and the sub is a lot more easier to setup than a sub in a 2 channel system. I have done both and am talking from my experience.

 

[gurujee]

It's the Source mostly, Some Titles are differently mastered in regards to bass. the Temperature variations shouldn't be very obvious.

Try with a Genuine Bluray disk on BDP and see, if the bass is adequate then there's no big issue, only fine adjustments need to be made. Next Try with good Netflix title (I use 6 Underground or Jurassic Park new or Godzilla vs Kong etc).

If the Bluray doesn’t Sound Good enough, try rerunning the Audessey and Later Increasing the Gain accordingly. I'm assuming the Sub Power is adequate for Room dimensions.

Thank you for the tip. I have checked blurays previously. Actually when the subwoofer sounds optimal, both blurays (even some Netflix/Apple TV content) and 2.0 music sound great and when it is not, both sounds unexciting. I have started called mine ‘moody subwoofer’ with a unique character of ‘mood swing’.

 

[liverpool_for_life]

Actually when the subwoofer sounds optimal, both blurays (even some Netflix/Apple TV content) and 2.0 music sound great and when it is not, both sounds unexciting.

It’s (highly) likely that the issue is related to the gain knob on your subwoofer.

 

[sandeepmohan]

From reading you posts, I get the feeling that you are more of a 2 channel enthusiast than a HT one.

Correct.
That in no way means the expectations are less when I listen to music on my HT setup.
What I have setup is almost exactly as what Audioholics explains under the section 'okay I get but my speakers are large'. I use LFE+Mains. I am not losing any low frequency information nor is bass being doubled up.

Anyways, I've said my piece and will end this here.
The FM can experiment with sub woofer placement too.

 

[Nikhil]

+1 to variation in the source material.

Hard to say anything about the sub woofer without knowing things in detail.
Almost anything is possible when you start looking at design, build quality etc
But it's all still conjecture without having a look at the sub in person.


.

 

[ssf]

What I have setup is almost exactly as what Audioholics explains under the section 'okay I get but my speakers are large'. I use LFE+Mains. I am not losing any low frequency information nor is bass being doubled up.

By setting your speakers to Large, you have essentially told your receiver to switch off bass management. It will now be like setting up a subwoofer in a stereo system. I have no doubts that you have got it setup to your liking but for those fairly new to the hobby, letting the receiver manage the bass is a much better and easier option.

Good having a chat. Cheers.

 

[Phew]

@gurujee Does this change happen to coincide with your in-laws dropping by or you winning an argument with wifey?

 

[sandeepmohan]

By setting your speakers to Large, you have essentially told your receiver to switch off bass management. It will now be like setting up a subwoofer in a stereo system.

The receiver is indeed the place where you manage Bass. I most certainly can manage bass with the speakers set to Large. Bass management is very much Enabled. Your receiver manual will clearly state that you should not set the speaker size parameter based on physical size of the speaker. You set the cross over frequency to suit the bass reproduction capability of the speaker being used.

When you have LFE+Mains Enabled, bass from the .1 channel is still handled entirely by the sub woofer. When the input signal is stereo, the sub woofer is still sent a signal a copy of the bass signal from the Mains and kicks-in at the cross over point you have set.

As an experiment, I had dropped the cut off to 50hz. I wanted more bass from my mains. In my room (which is a typical living room with no attention whatsoever towards acoustics), the results were not great so I decided to steer more bass towards the sub as it yielded better results. At 80Hz, the transition was not great. I could easily pin point the existence of the sub woofer.

If it was a stand mount, I would have probably redirected the bass almost entirely to the sub, via the receiver.

I have two sound curve profiles with one minor difference. When watching a movie, crank up the gain to the sub (From the receiver). Thats it. The goal here is impact but at the same time I don't want to take away bass duties entirely from my mains. The mains contribute to overall quality of the sound. Especially if you have a loudspeaker capable of that.

Setting up a sub woofer in a stereo only environment is quite different. 9 out of 10, you'll have to use line level inputs and control everything behind the sub woofer. Modern or the latest generation stereo amplifiers now offer some level of sub woofer adjustment though not as elaborate as an AV receiver. Does the job though.

 

[ssf]

The receiver is indeed the place where you manage Bass. I most certainly can manage bass with the speakers set to Large. Bass management is very much Enabled. Your receiver manual will clearly state that you should not set the speaker size parameter based on physical size of the speaker. You set the cross over frequency to suit the bass reproduction capability of the speaker being used.

When you have LFE+Mains Enabled, bass from the .1 channel is still handled entirely by the sub woofer. When the input signal is stereo, the sub woofer is still sent a signal a copy of the bass signal from the Mains and kicks-in at the cross over point you have set.

True. Except that your mains is not bass managed. It is getting a full range signal which it might not reproduce accurately. Putting demanding speakers on a receiver will also tax the receiver. Most frequencies below the crossover point will be produced both by the main speakers and the sub. This, on occasion, may create problems.

If one is aware of this and manages it to his liking, I see no wrong though.

Just as an experiment, set the mains to small and the crossover to 10 Hz above the low frequency range of the speaker. If you don't like it, you can always go back to your earlier setting.


My receiver is gone for repairs for the second time. I don't see it coming back anytime soon. I am currently using two Crown xls 2502, one for the mains and one for the sub. My 15 inch subs plate had issues hence the crown in the picture. Both are crossovered, Mains, High Pass and sub, Low pass. Results are ok.

Even though this discussion may look like OT to this thread, properly setting up a system is the first step to debugging the issue raised.