Suggest an individualised upgrade path for me.

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Dear friends,

My current (main) system is in my signature below. Having upgraded my source and preamp from what I started with two years ago to the CXC/CXN combination and Lyrita DHT, I now have started to feel like I should look at possible upgrades to the downstream components that have served me so capably from day one - the capable Audiolab 8200A (I use only the poweramp) and the lovely Castle Knight 2 speakers. No way am I feeling compelled to upgrade but if I am truly convinced that an option (poweramp plus speakers) that’s within my budget would serve my objectives well, I would consider the upgrade. Otherwise I can continue enjoying my system for years.

So here are my objectives:

1. Should maintain or improve upon the natural tone, sweetness and slightly warm signature of my existing setup. The current system is very versatile (as my music taste is) but excels at the vocal/mid-centric genres. Sparkle is needed, but should have a sweetness to it. Non-fatiguing naturalness is a must. Bass should not overpower, but provide body to the voice and instruments.

2. Provide a bigger sound than the current combo, ideal for a 330 sq ft living room (rectangular with the system along the breadth, which is kind of ideal). But I’d be playing mostly at low and medium sound levels. Idea is that even at low volumes the sound should be clear, with no loss in fidelity.

3. Musical (and emoting) system that does well with the microtones... something that sings well. I feel my current system delivers this (within the limitations imposed by its price range) and I’d not want to lose it for punchier sound. Most mass market products miss this part. The more musical options seem to be niche.

4. Should have better bass extension (not volume or thump) and lesser roll off on HF than my existing combo. This is so that I should be listening to more of the music on the track, something I know my existing system has understandable limits in serving.

5. Open to FS as long as they have musical bass. Not open to adding subwoofer. But happiest with BS (small/large) options.

6. Speakers that are less sensitive to placement, and produce excellent imaging and soundstage. The current combo has great soundstage, but compels me to sit in the centre to experience its beauty. Of course it’s enjoyable (with all details) from anywhere in the room, but the spatial separation is experienced only from the center.

Budget: About 2 lacs for the poweramp and speakers. Extendable to 2.5. (Don’t feel comfortable buying pre-owned unless they come in the combo and I can listen to them before buying)

In fact, if there are some speakers which can use the poweramp of the 8200A well enough and don’t seek more power, but can get me my objectives as above, I don’t mind putting a large part of that budget just on the speakers. On the other hand, if there are any tube power amp and full range speakers that can serve my purpose but available in this price range, do also suggest.

I’ve been doing some of my own research on this. And though I haven’t demoed, but by reviews and user impressions I think my ideal could be more like Harbeth speakers (my kind of sound preference) and Naim amps (musical). But they’d not be in my budget unless I get good deals in pre-owned (with above mentioned limitation). Something like Rega is lower cost alternative to Naim and Linton Heritage to Harbeth, but then I have to feel sure that they are sufficiently significant upgrades. I’d be wary of sideways or incremental upgrades. I’d hate if I buy something and it doesn’t deliver, just not a ‘try, if don’t like, resell’ person.

Kindly read through above to understand my objectives, preferences and needs and then suggest. Looking for quality of suggestions than quantity. If you need any more info to help me, please ask. If you think my objectives will not be served within my budget, do say so, and suggest alternatives you feel sure of which I could then save for. If there’re some sound principles/abstractions that can help me rephrase/verbalise my objectives better, do state.

Thanks.
 
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I suggest you go and hear as many systems as you can over the next 6 months and figure out what floats your boat. You’ll be much clearer about what you want. Pl remember to get the best out of your system, you’ll have to spend time getting the speaker placement right. There’s no running away from this. I am saying this because you mentioned you are looking for a speaker that’s easy to place.

One of our forum members, Naturelover, spent 6 months travelling all over India to hear as many systems as possible to get an idea of what he preferred. Post that he finalised his system. I am not saying you need to go to that extent, but visit dealers and homes in Mumbai and maybe Pune to get a clearer idea.
 
I suggest you go and hear as many systems you can over the next 6 months and figure out what floats your boat. You’ll be much clearer about what you want. Pl remember to get the best out of your system, you’ll have to spend time getting the speaker placement right. There’s no running away from this. I am saying this because you mentioned you are looking for a speaker that’s easy to place.

Prem, thanks. I am more the kind of person who’d study, narrow down and then audition. And I’d think I am reasonably clear of what I want (and don’t want) as explained in the objectives in my post. As for speaker placement, I have managed to get the best possible placement (from wall, distance form each other, toe in etc) of my speakers with extensive experimentation. In fact, I have put all my learnings on this in another thread.

I’d be helped more by replies that are specific to my stated objectives.
 
@SachinChavan
As @prem says upgrades are tricky.

We need to erase what we like and objectively listen to what is out there.
So take your time and be open to ideas and surprises when you audition, even if they are contrary to what you think.
In the meantime, start listening to your room between now and possible change. It will tell you a lot.

Cheers,
Raghu
 
@SachinChavan
As @prem says upgrades are tricky.

We need to erase what we like and objectively listen to what is out there.
So take your time and be open to ideas and surprises when you audition, even if they are contrary to what you think.
In the meantime, start listening to your room between now and possible change. It will tell you a lot.

Cheers,
Raghu

Raghu, thanks. That’s an approach. But each one of us is wired differently. I would like to remain narrowed on the kind of sound I like and want more of. I don’t want to erase it, but build upon it.

Can you please elaborate on what you mean by ‘listen to your room’?
 
From my understanding after reading your post, you are quite happy with the sound signature of your speakers in which case I would not recommend a complete change in amp/speakers because most every speaker will have it's own tonality which you may not like.

What you have achieved is what a lot of people keep trying to and end up spending a fortune and still do not find it.

So I would recommend an upgrade in the source. Not the pre-amp, just the Cambridge could be upgraded with another piece of equipment.
I had gone from a Cambridge 840 CD to Esoteric K01 and it made a significant difference.

If you are absolutely certain that amp/speakers is what you would like to change, then I will try and put up a list which I feel could do the trick for you.
Best
 
Raghu, thanks. That’s an approach. But each one of us is wired differently. I would like to remain narrowed on the kind of sound I like and want more of. I don’t want to erase it, but build upon it.

Can you please elaborate on what you mean by ‘listen to your room’?
Bass response of a speaker in stated spec is 2 parts:
1. Anechoic Chamber or Free standing
2. In room or real world

The first one is usually meaningless in a normal listening/living room. We can never dream of it unless we have a studio.
The second one is where things get interesting.
Placement of speakers are dictated (most of the time) by what we can get away with, what looks and sounds pleasing/symmetrical, etc.
The punch any speaker can deliver without overwhelming the listener or the other frequencies in the music is bloody elusive thing.
Moving speakers in/out , sideways w.r.t walls makes a difference in soundstage and imaging.
You said that currently the system has great sound stage but forces you to sit in the sweet spot more often than not.

Look up this thread, if you have not done so, and maybe have a go at some of the suggestions.
I know many not have such luxuries, but this thread is just a fascinating one.
For me it unlocked many of the usual prejudices we carry around.

A change in speakers, may well bring about a change in amplification.
Glad you are prepared for this. If you get lucky, the amp may be retained.
Here are some suggestions from my listening experience.
Try some 3-way book shelves; they usually do mids/vocals well. Eg KEFs
Try sealed speakers; easy to place/position. Eg Baby Harbeths
Try TL speakers; they handle LF differently. Eg PMC

Take your time. I'm sure other FMs will chime in with their opinions and suggestions.
Cheers,
Raghu
 
From my understanding after reading your post, you are quite happy with the sound signature of your speakers in which case I would not recommend a complete change in amp/speakers because most every speaker will have it's own tonality which you may not like.

What you have achieved is what a lot of people keep trying to and end up spending a fortune and still do not find it.

So I would recommend an upgrade in the source. Not the pre-amp, just the Cambridge could be upgraded with another piece of equipment.
I had gone from a Cambridge 840 CD to Esoteric K01 and it made a significant difference.

If you are absolutely certain that amp/speakers is what you would like to change, then I will try and put up a list which I feel could do the trick for you.
Best

Thanks. I have recently moved on to the Cambridges (especially the CXN) and though they have their limitations, I’d not like to consider upgrading them as yet (as mentioned, I hate to ‘try, resell, upgrade’. So, I a, looking for options on the poweramp/speaker combos. Your offer to help with a list (shorter the better) is very welcome!
 
Hi sachin...since you like the castle sound. Why not consider the castle avon 5 speakers. They are also effecient at 89db, so you don't need to change your amp. You will only get more of the sound, that you presently love. And these are TL designs too, so bass will be addictive :)
 
Hi sachin...since you like the castle sound. Why not consider the castle avon 5 speakers. They are also effecient at 89db, so you don't need to change your amp. You will only get more of the sound, that you presently love. And these are TL designs too, so bass will be addictive :)

:) Just last night I was reading up on those. Guess if I consider FS, it has to be TL. Castle Knight 5 is obvious upgrade (21/2 way, TL) but not sure if they’d end up being stop gap. Avon’s do seem to be in different league (ribbon tweeter, 3 way, TL, woven carbon fibre) and Anyone on the forum has the Avon’s? I’d like to hear their experience.
 
Upgrading tests ones patience as we already are used to a particular sound, so takes time and patience to adadpt to something new. Stick to your upgrade and try different things like positioning and cables. If you are patient enough you will be rewarded one day.
 
SachinChavan, since you have a fairly clear idea of what you want your sound to be, you could commission Hari to make a TL speaker for you which can be tweaked to suit your needs. And you could request Viren to design an amp for it. Chances are what you’ll get within your budget from these 2 might be far superior to what you can get from the market
 
SachinChavan, since you have a fairly clear idea of what you want your sound to be, you could commission Hari to make a TL speaker for you which can be tweaked to suit your needs. And you could request Viren to design an amp for it. Chances are what you’ll get within your budget from these 2 might be far superior to what you can get from the market

I really like this suggestion of getting a speaker of our exact requirement. Instead of choosing ready made ones, and living with the compromises. Can you please share Mr.Hari's handle in this forum please.
 
Upgrading tests ones patience as we already are used to a particular sound, so takes time and patience to adadpt to something new. Stick to your upgrade and try different things like positioning and cables. If you are patient enough you will be rewarded one day.

Oh, I can go on for two pages with all the positioning, cable, connectors etc experimentation I have done over the last many many months. And every time there’s been an improvement in sound. Though there can never be an end to it, what I have now is perhaps close to the most optimised sound this system can give. And hence the curiosity to know what’s next. As I said in the original post, I can live with and continue to enjoy what I have and don’t feel compelled to upgrade.
 
Bass response of a speaker in stated spec is 2 parts:
1. Anechoic Chamber or Free standing
2. In room or real world

The first one is usually meaningless in a normal listening/living room. We can never dream of it unless we have a studio.
The second one is where things get interesting.
Placement of speakers are dictated (most of the time) by what we can get away with, what looks and sounds pleasing/symmetrical, etc.
The punch any speaker can deliver without overwhelming the listener or the other frequencies in the music is bloody elusive thing.
Moving speakers in/out , sideways w.r.t walls makes a difference in soundstage and imaging.
You said that currently the system has great sound stage but forces you to sit in the sweet spot more often than not.

Look up this thread, if you have not done so, and maybe have a go at some of the suggestions.
I know many not have such luxuries, but this thread is just a fascinating one.
For me it unlocked many of the usual prejudices we carry around.

A change in speakers, may well bring about a change in amplification.
Glad you are prepared for this. If you get lucky, the amp may be retained.
Here are some suggestions from my listening experience.
Try some 3-way book shelves; they usually do mids/vocals well. Eg KEFs
Try sealed speakers; easy to place/position. Eg Baby Harbeths
Try TL speakers; they handle LF differently. Eg PMC

Take your time. I'm sure other FMs will chime in with their opinions and suggestions.
Cheers,
Raghu

Raghu, thanks for the category suggestions. Helps me narrow my search.

As for the thread you’ve quoted, I am absolutely for this approach to sound enhancement. Of course my humble system is no comparison to Prem’s grande, and the narration by Audiopro is par excellence, I can proudly say that I have relived that very experience umpteen number of times in my room with my system. A common sight that family and regular visitors are now used to is seeing me crouching on the floor with a steel ruler adjusting the speaker position (from rear wall, from the center and also in toe in) in precise millimetres. And yes, I can confidently say it is the cheapest substantial upgrade one can do to a system’s sound. After all how much does a steel ruler cost? :). I have posted most of my experiential learnings from this endeavour in a thread recently. Here’s it... bland I’m comparison, but equal in intention!


Also, let me assure you that even if I upgrade to my dream system tomorrow, I shall still optimise the speaker placement with equal enthusiasm to reap the best dividends possible from it!

Also, let me clarify a point about my current system. One hears the same details from anywhere in the room, without any drop in any frequency as compared from the sweet spot. What I lose the moment I move to left or right of the sweet spot is not the detail (or loudness or musicality), but the centering of the sound. The vocalist shifts along with me to the right speaker if I shift right and vice versa. But even if I sit bang in front of the right speaker, I get exactly the same sound that I get from the center position, except that it seems like coming mostly from the right speaker. From what I’ve read, some speakers are more prone to this than others. And that’s something I want to keep in mind while upgrading (point 6).
 
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I really like this suggestion of getting a speaker of our exact requirement. Instead of choosing ready made ones, and living with the compromises. Can you please share Mr.Hari's handle in this forum please.

There’s merit I that approach. However with a customised solution, one doesn’t know what one’d get till it’s installed and used. With ready made products there’s the standardised specs and user reports that make it easier to imagine and ensure better match between what one expects and what one gets. Of course this is not in any way about the individual designers/makers concerned (Hari, a dear friend and Virenji, someone I highly respect for his philosophy, passion and abilities). It’s more a reflection on myself (the customer). Some of us are more adventurous and some more deliberative. And of course, we are rewarded differently.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
There’s merit I that approach. However with a customised solution, one doesn’t know what one’d get till it’s installed and used. With ready made products there’s the standardised specs and user reports that make it easier to imagine and ensure better match between what one expects and what one gets. Of course this is not in any way about the individual designers/makers concerned (Hari, a dear friend and Virenji, someone I highly respect for his philosophy, passion and abilities). It’s more a reflection on myself (the customer). Some of us are more adventurous and some more deliberative. And of course, we are rewarded differently. :)

Hi sachin :)

I understand throughly, we all have our tastes and ways of doing things. Not to mention that it will be difficult to move on custom speakers in case you itch for a change.

I think I've spent enough time and money chasing my yet to be achieved hifi dream. So Iam not averse to look beyond brands to get my last set of speakers ever, that can do all that I want. So keeping my fingers crossed at the moment, as I've already sent a message to Mr.Hari :)
 
@SachinChavan
Oh!!
I'm definitely not as methodical as you. In my home, stands move in and out regularly.
I use tile boundaries as reference to pull as close to sweet spot.

Regarding, speaker presentation, I guess everyone has different tastes.
Most of the time music is playing and I sit diagonally across the room at the dining table and do office work.
So much for my "Goldilocks zone" :D

Cheers,
Raghu
 
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