Suggestion on recievers for pairing B&W DM 601 3s and B&w Center

gaurav_s

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Hi,

I recently got a used B&W bookshelves (dm601 s3, 100W 8ohm) and a B&w center (lcr60 s3) from a forum member.

And i am searching for a AV receiver to go with them.
Have looked at few options in Denon, Marantz, Yamaha.

I liked, the following, starting models of Marantz are out of my budget so didnt list that.
1) Yamaha RX-V371 / HTR- 3064RX-V371
2) Denon 1612.

The yamaha seems to be best option as seems a good price Rs19k from HyperCity in bangalore and has the right set of features i wanted , not too many bells & whistles.
I Yamaha suited for the B&w speakers?

Also for Denon 1612, i am seeing few quality issues posted in the forums.

I am looking for an AVR within upper budget limit of Rs25k and which will bring out the best from the speakers.

Please help in deciding.


Thanks
Gaurav
 
the Dm601 are very decent speakers.
However Yamaha and denon would not do it justice . especially the lower end models .
Ideally you would need Marantz/ NAD / ROTEL

You did mention you are on a budget.

What I would suggest is that take a couple of months collect a a little bit of money and go in for a Marantz etc. if you can source a used one. that would be good as well
Its not point having decent speakers and pairing it with low down models

Pairing is key with B&W and they are pretty finicky speakers when it comes to pairing. They need power to sound good. the DM1's are no exception.
I have the B&W 685 and sound pretty much like crap when connected to my Denon 2106. Infact it sounds like crap with the Onkyo 809 as well .
Denon's IMO are not warm they are Tad on the brighter side.
Yamaha is warm but on the higher end models . Infact the lower end models are bright and keeps warming up as you go higher up the chain

Basically its like this. would you buy a Ferrari and put cheap tyres and expect it to perform like a track car.

Take your time and buy yourself a better AVR even if it means it takes a couple of months. The end result is you would not regret the wait.
Hurrying into the AVR would lead to disappointment in the long run and the upgrade bug will hit you faster, which in turn would cost you more that buying a better AVR in the very first place

Take a look at pics of the rear of the Yamaha/Denon's lower end models and compare it with the mid priced levels . the lower end models are built cheaply. if the outside looks and feels so cheap with its cheap components. There is no guessing how the inside components would be
 
Hi Flash,
Though i am starting out in the world of hifi components, i think i do understand what you mean in terms of Yamaha's being warm and Denon being bright. I had a demo of Denon at Pro-fx and Yamaha's and HyperCity.

I do want to go for a NAD or a Marantz, based on their sound quality from what i've heared on the forum. For that , as you suggested, i should be patient either lookout for a deal or accumulate some mollaha :D.

Also i take your point that its gonna feel very bad if one buys a avr and is not satisfied with it.

Any particular models of Marantz,NAD or Rotel i should look out for?
Also do you know anyone in the forum who is bored of theirs and would be interested in parting with it :)

Thanks Flash for taking the time to respond.

Gaurav
 
Folks,
Need some pro/experienced advise.

Would Marantz SR5005 be a good combination for the speakers i mentioned in the original post?
I am considering the offer by HiFiMart (http://www.hifivision.com/group-buys-deals/22847-marantz-sr-5005-av-receiver.html).

Thing to note, speakers i have, as per the speaker manual:-
Recommended Amplifier Power: 25W-100W into 8ohm on unclipped programme.

And SR5005's specs as per hifimart page :-
"discrete 100 watts Amp x7 (8 ohms, 20Hz-20 kHz)"

Are the above specs suitable match?
Would the speakers need Wattage above 100 to perform well?

Also one strange thing is that SR5005 is not searchable on the marantz us site (Marantz US | Home).
?
 
I guess when Flash,says B&W are power hungry, he means they are less sensitive. From internet I can see it is 88 dbl. That should not consume too much of your amps power, in general. I own Yamaha towers @ 89 dbl and a RX V371 and it has got clean 80w rms of power, two channels driven. There is no mention of how much the amp will deliver when all 5 channels are driven. The amp playes the speaker with enough grunt in the 20 x 12 halls. For most of the time you will not use even 75% of the amp (trust me it will be way loud for a 'decent' room), specially if you are driving all 5 channels. So in short the power of 371 or Denon 1612 should not be a problem with B&W.

However pairing the speakers with these amps can be a problem. I have read in lot of reviews that these little creatures are finicky on choosing their 'husbands'.

BTW 20-100w in speakers means the maximum you should play is 100w in these speakers, for short period of time without damaging them. Once you go above 100w for long term (long consistently long listening hours) be prepared for the worst.

Since you have got 8 ohms speakers, there is very less specification that you will have to be bothered about, but its better that you buy amps with 100w and above @ 8ohms.

But i strongly agree to Flash's analogy of Ferrari and the tyres. These are good speakers, marry them with a 'good' amps. BTW eve if you go for amps one level above the 371 or 1312, the difference if just a nominal increase in power and addition feature, which you may not use. So go for 1912 or 671 or Marantzs.
 
Have a look at the sale thread of harsha64
This further reinforces my point.
B&W's need suitable equipment when it comes to matching. Power does not necessary mean better sound. The Amp sound signature is important as well.
Marantz are known to pair well with B&W speakers. However Rotel's NAIM etc with B&W is a like Match made in Heaven But then the price
The Marantz receiver should do a decent job though.


http://www.hifivision.com/sale-owner/23376-b-w-685-marantz-pm-6604-stands.html
 
..From internet I can see it is 88 dbl. That should not consume too much of your amps power, in general. I own Yamaha towers @ 89 dbl and a RX V371 and it has got clean 80w rms of power, two channels driven. There is no mention of how much the amp will deliver when all 5 channels are driven. The amp playes the speaker with enough grunt in the 20 x 12 halls. For most of the time you will not use even 75% of the amp (trust me it will be way loud for a 'decent' room), specially if you are driving all 5 channels. So in short the power of 371 or Denon 1612 should not be a problem with B&W.

For music, which will be the primary use, i plan to play it in stereo/2 channel mode.
For movies it will be the 2 fronts and 1 center mode for some time, till i think i have the need surround set.
Also can you suggest where more than one models of Yamaha can be auditioned in Bangalore?


pupupuchi28 said:
BTW 20-100w in speakers means the maximum you should play is 100w in these speakers, for short period of time without damaging them. Once you go above 100w for long term (long consistently long listening hours) be prepared for the worst.

Yea, i understand (20-100W) the range is the normal operating range. Not likely to blast the speakers at full for long duration :).

pupupuchi28 said:
Since you have got 8 ohms speakers, there is very less specification that you will have to be bothered about, but its better that you buy amps with 100w and above @ 8ohms.

Sorry didnt understand this part.

pupupuchi28 said:
But i strongly agree to Flash's analogy of Ferrari and the tyres. These are good speakers, marry them with a 'good' amps. BTW eve if you go for amps one level above the 371 or 1312, the difference if just a nominal increase in power and addition feature, which you may not use. So go for 1912 or 671 or Marantzs.

Am now repenting my weak moment and got a ferrari in my room :eek:

One i am considering *now* is Marantz SR5005, its an 100W @ 8ohm per channel (7.1) reciever. Will this be fine?


Have a look at the sale thread of harsha64
....B&W's need suitable equipment when it comes to matching. Power does not necessary mean better sound. The Amp sound signature is important as well.
Marantz are known to pair well with B&W speakers. However Rotel's NAIM etc with B&W is a like Match made in Heaven But then the price
The Marantz receiver should do a decent job though.

I read the harsha64 sale thread, the amp he was using is Marantz PM6004. That delivers 45W @ 8ohm (and 60W @ 4ohm). So i guess the speakers may have felt under-driven (if there is such a term).

So far i've heared Onkyo, Denon and Marantz. I have good impresion of Marantz and Denon, will revisit the Marantz guy for another demo.

Am hovering around Marantz SR5005, its way,way over my original budget. But hopefully if this clicks i wont upgrade any time soon ;).

Please let me know if Marantz SR5005 specs are compatible with the B&W's, my main concern is mismatch of power so that speakers underperform or are harmed by power more than they are meant to handle.

apologies for the long rambling and thanks again.
gaurav
 
Yes. Power is one thing but equipment matching another important aspect.

for example Take a Klipsch RF series speaker and mate them to a Bright amp and you will probably get a headache in 15 minutes and want to turn of the music/ movies.

Marantz IMO with B&W is a good match and the next best thing to B&W + Rotel at a lower price point.
You just cant beat the Rotel/B&W synergy.

However if you google Marantz + B&W there should be a lot of folks out there who have tried them together and find them to have good synergy.

Also another point.
More power does not equal to louder sound
a 120 watt RMS Amp is not going to sound twice as loud as a 60 watt amp. Our ears have a different way of measuring sound (don't want to get into Gyan).

However its the way the amps go about their business is important. Campacitors / Tranformers/ Circuitry/ DAC's etc etc
My general view is take the plunge and go in for the Marantz.
I would pit it over Denon / Yamaha mid segment series when it comes to pairing with the B&W.
Onkyo IMO is a definite NO-NO for B&W speakers.
 
- For music, which will be the primary use, i plan to play it in stereo/2 channel mode.
Primary use music, better you go for good amps as entry level amps will not do justice to any form of music. AVRs (speacially entry level ones) are not meant for music.

Also can you suggest where more than one models of Yamaha can be auditioned in Bangalore?
- I have been to Vector (Brigare Road), they have good stack of yamaha products. Thomsun Music Store, 9th main, Indira Nagar is the dealer. They have lovely collection of all yamaha products, but be sure to spend couple of grands more if you purchase from there. Not very customer friendly sales personnel. :mad:

A member named 'Santy' has RX V471, you can seek help from him, on his views regarding the amp.


- Yea, i understand (20-100W) the range is the normal operating range. Not likely to blast the speakers at full for long duration :).

100w is not the normal range but the uper limit, as per company specifications.


Sorry didnt understand this part.
Typically low impedence or low sensitivity speakers are a problem when they need to be paired to amps. There are numerous threads on specification matching in this forum. Pls research. :)


- Am now repenting my weak moment and got a ferrari in my room :eek:
You should rather feel proud to own a Ferrari, but unlike Sachin do not sell it. Only MAN understand these toys. :)

- One i am considering *now* is Marantz SR5005, its an 100W @ 8ohm per channel (7.1) reciever. Will this be fine?

Should be fine. Audition before you buy.

gaurav

Enjoy the pain of building a HT set-up :)
 
Hi Gaurav,
My first speakers were 601S2s that was until I pushed them to surround and got bigger 602S3 for fronts and stereo. I have paired these speakers over time with Yamaha RXV 595a, then with Denon 1912 and finally with Rotel RSX1057. The worst match was Denon, it was always lacking something. No, it is not the power, the sound was well.... a little hollow. The Rotel ofcourse was and is the best match, the Naim would have worked well, but that was much more expensive.
I have not had any problem driving these speakers with any amps including a tube that my friend built from a DIY kit, it was quiet effortless.
Personally, I would not pair with Denon. Ofcourse,this business is very subjective. If budget is an issue, I would try Yamaha, Pioneer or Onkyo.
Happy Researching
Shankar
 
Hi Shankar,

Thanks for your input.
I was about to go for marantz SR5005, any idea how that would fit?

From your input i think i will have to make time to listen to few Yamaha's as well, i have only done the RX-V371 so far.
Denon even i had ruled out. Rotel is quite out of my budget, the model i inquired about RSX-1560 was quoted at Rs76+tax !!, is that good reflection of Rotel range ?
If NAIM is costlier than Rotel i am not even considering it. :D

Looks like i am not done yet with my find .

Thanks
Gaurav
 
Some quick notes:

Auditioned these B&W bookshelves (took the speaker set along) with Yamaha RX-v571 at Vector Systems in Bangalore. The results were satisfying, i think for the first time i heard what these speakers could produce. The sound was punchy and clear being on the side of being punch rather than very delicate, i liked that.
Before my speakers were plugged in i heared the same (Steely Dan) track on pair of diff. Wharfdale floor standers (10.1 and 9.1 series if i am not mistaken), from my and my wife's untrained years the B&W had more clarity than Wharfdale FS.

Then played the same track through a Denon Amplifier, i felt the yamaha was better. My wife didnt feel any difference.

The only contention for now being price (quoted by Vector Systems) for yamaha's :-
RX-571 = Rs30,500.
RX-671 = Rs39,500.

Ideally i want to get RX-671 for around Rs35k, as that is close to the price i saw in one of the thread's here which had 'avr pricelist'.

I want to hear Marantz SR5005, since its available at a good price in the forums group buy, before taking a final call.
 
Some quick notes:

Before my speakers were plugged in i heared the same (Steely Dan) track on pair of diff. Wharfdale floor standers (10.1 and 9.1 series if i am not mistaken), from my and my wife's untrained years the B&W had more clarity than Wharfdale FS.

Ideally i want to get RX-671 for around Rs35k, as that is close to the price i saw in one of the thread's here which had 'avr pricelist'.

I want to hear Marantz SR5005, since its available at a good price in the forums group buy, before taking a final call.

NIce you are inching closer towards procuring an amp.

Well it proves the General agreement """ Similar priced Bookshelves sound better than Similar priced Floorstanders. """
 
Update:
Heard the speakers on a Marantz SR5005, was really looking forward to this. Well the experience was ..... quite disappointing !
The clarity was missing and instrumentation was not distinct.
Some tracks excelled but over-all it was not exciting.

So far I seem to be tilting towards the Yamaha sound.

-Gaurav
 
The Rotels are for some reason mared quiet high in Bangalore, not sure if thats the case for Naim, neverthless it should be high.

So, how is the search closing in ?
Regarding 571 and 671, it seems 671 is a small feature upgrade compared to 671 with the audio parts remaining the same.Apart from powered Zone 2 and Component upconversion and other nifty things like napster, borwser etc I dont find a major difference. If I dont have component source and dont care for napster and browser support. I think I would have gone 571 (when compared with 671) and save the 9K for good stands for decent ICs :)

Shankar
 
Well folks, i have been guilty of not updating the thread.

So here's goes, please pardon the verbosity. :D...

Well last week i took the plunge and got the Yamaha RX-V571. Few things went into making the decisions i will list these out these. I may not be right on all fronts but thats how i ended up deciding.

1. Auditions:
Well in the process of selecting i listened to the commonly available brands in Bangalore.
Marantz, Denon, Onkyo and Yamaha.
Have posted my impressions earlier but to summarise. I had ruled out Denon due to the fact the entry levels were not made of good components based on what i read and higher end were costly and not very too impressive.
Onkyo sound i didnt really like, but from cost to feature perspective realise there's no beating Onkyo.
Marantz (SR-5005) came highly recommended specially there combination with B&W speakers, but what i found on listening was not very pleasing. During audition they were connected in bi-wiring mode with my speakers and still they didnt make the sound brilliant.
Yamaha's i heard twice once with my speakers and once without mine in a mall.
On both occasion i was very surprised by the delivery of the avr's (RX-v471 and RX-v571). Once they were connected to wharfdale floor standers and other time with Yamaha floor standers and then with my B&W speakers, on all occassions i found the B&W to be outshine the floor standers in clarity and detail. This i, on later thinking , realise that could be due the the fact the typical showroom speakers are not broken in and havent opened up completely. I felt the Yamaha's got the best out of these speakers.

NAIM, Rotel, NAD :-
I did not get an opportunity to listen to these. I more or less ignored Rotel as it was quite pricey and i havent heard good things about it. Would have loved to try NAIM or NAD avrs also.
would like to point out something here, that there are some forum members who are not active on threads but seem quite knowledgeable and have reached out to me to offer advise and suggestions. According to them best combo for B&W would have been a NAIM or NAD, but both of these are not easily available in India and even their entry level avr systems are too costly.

2. Decision rational.
Well i did not want the AVR to do too many things like network control, DLNA etc. Wanted it to spend all its power on music and video handling, hence i choose RX-V571. From power to components its same as RX-V671 minus some frills.( as pointed out by Electrify above) And i got a decent deal with B&W from official Yamaha showroom.

With the system its very much a learning process at the moment. Am busy converting my music to wav format, as i am playing via USB.
Next am contemplating the road to setting up a music & video player, either a HTPC or a somelike HiMedia device!!

Thanks everyone for their input.

Gaurav
 
A beautiful, well-constructed speaker with class-leading soundstage, imaging and bass that is fast, deep, and precise.
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