The AVR VS Amplifier dilemma:-

[avr]

All AV experts,
I have a B&W 683 HT setup with SVS SB12NSD Sub. I drive this setup with Onkyo 3010. Now what I m experiencing is that when I set the volume at above 40 (absolute 0-100) the tweeter of the floor standers some what distorts. I fear is the AVR clipping. If yes than my speakers are at risk if I drive them above 40 volume.
I searched and read on various forums that the AVR companies give some what misleading tech specs. Like this 3010 is rated 140 WPC 2 channels driven at 8Ohms 20Hz to 20Khz. Some experts have advised me that the AVR is quite capable of driving my HT setup with out any problems. But I have problems as described above. From what I have gathered it seems that the AVR gives 140-130 WPC at 2 channels driven, but however if 5 or 7 channels are driven than the position is different.
The calculations I found was that if the above is driven with 5 speakers than the power available for all 5 channels is as below:
140+140=280 /5 = 56 WPC
280/7 = 40 WPC
Now the above figures are only applicable when all the speakers need the same power at a given time, which is not the case. but still the figures above 56 and 40 wpc is very low.
So the question is whether the above calculation is correct or not further if they are true or nearly true than will a power amplifier compensate this power loss. Although some experts say that there will not be much difference in the sound as using preouts of the AVR is not recommended over the pure pre power combo.
My setup is as below:
Room size 10' X 10'
Floor standers B&W 683 rated at maximum 200 watts 8 ohms
Centre HTM 61 150 watts max 8 ohms
surrounds DS3 100 watts max 8 ohms
Source sony bdp s 490 and seagate theatre plus and Tatasky Hd
Speaker gain at -3 fronts and surrounds -1 for the centre. +10 treble on all.

Please give your expert advice on the above.
Thank You.

 

[asliarun]

Not an expert but it sounds like your 683 is the bad boy. While it is rated at 90 db at 8 ohms nominal, it also goes down to 3 ohms which can be brutal on the power section of your receiver. You might want to get a dedicated power amp for your floor standers.

Caveat: I haven't listened to any of these items, just saying based on published specs.

Or you can either change your speakers to something that has stable impedance across the frequency band, or you can change to a pre power combo. Changing your speakers might be the simplest option as bw has pretty good resale value.

A 7 channel power amp for your room might be way overkill.

OK, I saw that even your center goes down to 3 ohms. Maybe you want to go for a stiff 7 channel power amp that can do at least 75-125w sustained in all channels. Something like outlaw audio. Or emotiva.

 

[shanmune]

All AV experts,
I have a B&W 683 HT setup with SVS SB12NSD Sub. I drive this setup with Onkyo 3010. Now what I m experiencing is that when I set the volume at above 40 (absolute 0-100) the tweeter of the floor standers some what distorts. I fear is the AVR clipping. If yes than my speakers are at risk if I drive them above 40 volume.
I searched and read on various forums that the AVR companies give some what misleading tech specs. Like this 3010 is rated 140 WPC 2 channels driven at 8Ohms 20Hz to 20Khz. Some experts have advised me that the AVR is quite capable of driving my HT setup with out any problems. But I have problems as described above. From what I have gathered it seems that the AVR gives 140-130 WPC at 2 channels driven, but however if 5 or 7 channels are driven than the position is different.
The calculations I found was that if the above is driven with 5 speakers than the power available for all 5 channels is as below:
140+140=280 /5 = 56 WPC
280/7 = 40 WPC
Now the above figures are only applicable when all the speakers need the same power at a given time, which is not the case. but still the figures above 56 and 40 wpc is very low.
So the question is whether the above calculation is correct or not further if they are true or nearly true than will a power amplifier compensate this power loss. Although some experts say that there will not be much difference in the sound as using preouts of the AVR is not recommended over the pure pre power combo.
My setup is as below:
Room size 10' X 10'
Floor standers B&W 683 rated at maximum 200 watts 8 ohms
Centre HTM 61 150 watts max 8 ohms
surrounds DS3 100 watts max 8 ohms
Source sony bdp s 490 and seagate theatre plus and Tatasky Hd
Speaker gain at -3 fronts and surrounds -1 for the centre. +10 treble on all.

Please give your expert advice on the above.
Thank You.

Yes, most of the brands (except for few) do not disclose the full power rating with all the channels driven simultaneously in the range of 20hz-20000Hz.

Coming to your calculation of power rating - (2 x 140)/5 is not the right way. I mean the power delivery is not linear as we think. The actual power rating per channel can be found only when the AVR is subjected to lab testing. By the way, 140 watts/channel (2 channels driven, 20HZ-20khz, 8 ohms) is an huge amount of power and there is no doubt in that. Based on how other brands perform with respect to the power rating, your AVR should at least output more than that what you have calculated.

I just found this link and it has detailed lab test report on the actual power rating.
http://www.hometheater.com/content/onkyo-tx-nr3010-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures

Just a cut/paste from that site -
Two channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 167.8 watts
1% distortion at 189.5 watts

Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 122.1 watts
1% distortion at 142.2 watts

Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 114.1 watts
1% distortion at 127.2 watts

If we go by the above specification, your AVR should at least drive all your speakers at least above 100 watts per channel (when all the channels are driven). At the same time, having a seperatye power amp connected through the pre-outs is a different beast altogether. Based on what I heard from many users, having a seperate amp should improve the sonic quality.

Now, coming back to you problem, may be your AVR is already delivering more than 100 watts per channel (I am not sure about it unless that is measured). Even your speakers have 90db sensitivity and so it can consule less power and deliver more sound level. Did you try the same in stereo mode with only 2 channels driven ? If you still see the same problem of distortion even at volume level at 40, then probably you may need to consult with the service centre.

 

[square_wave]

Just some data from my past experience if it helps.

I used to have a pioneer integrated amp many years ago. Not a classic model but one with a wimpy power supply.

I then went ahead and bought a wharfedale floorstander. Lovely sound till I raise the volume to simulate live levels. The tweeter started to distort badly. Bewildered, I borrowed a modern sony AVR (crispy new imported from UK ) from a friend. The experience was even worse. The highs distorted much faster. I resigned to the fact that tweeters need replacement money was hard to come by and I had somehow managed to buy the speakers after saving for six months.

Hearing my woes, a friend arranged for a used - old nad integrated amplifier ( on sale )for me to try out. The distortion vanished! No clipping just music even at ear bleeding levels with metallica. I sold that speaker to a friend many moons back. It still going strong. Learned some important lessons that day.

It is the AVR / bad amplifiers which are the cause of most distortions unless you have speakers bottoming out. They clip if they cannot swing with the needs.

 

[ranjeetrain]

All AV experts,
I have a B&W 683 HT setup with SVS SB12NSD Sub. I drive this setup with Onkyo 3010. Now what I m experiencing is that when I set the volume at above 40 (absolute 0-100) the tweeter of the floor standers some what distorts. I fear is the AVR clipping. If yes than my speakers are at risk if I drive them above 40 volume.
I searched and read on various forums that the AVR companies give some what misleading tech specs. Like this 3010 is rated 140 WPC 2 channels driven at 8Ohms 20Hz to 20Khz. Some experts have advised me that the AVR is quite capable of driving my HT setup with out any problems. But I have problems as described above. From what I have gathered it seems that the AVR gives 140-130 WPC at 2 channels driven, but however if 5 or 7 channels are driven than the position is different.
The calculations I found was that if the above is driven with 5 speakers than the power available for all 5 channels is as below:
140+140=280 /5 = 56 WPC
280/7 = 40 WPC
Now the above figures are only applicable when all the speakers need the same power at a given time, which is not the case. but still the figures above 56 and 40 wpc is very low.
So the question is whether the above calculation is correct or not further if they are true or nearly true than will a power amplifier compensate this power loss. Although some experts say that there will not be much difference in the sound as using preouts of the AVR is not recommended over the pure pre power combo.
My setup is as below:
Room size 10' X 10'
Floor standers B&W 683 rated at maximum 200 watts 8 ohms
Centre HTM 61 150 watts max 8 ohms
surrounds DS3 100 watts max 8 ohms
Source sony bdp s 490 and seagate theatre plus and Tatasky Hd
Speaker gain at -3 fronts and surrounds -1 for the centre. +10 treble on all.

Please give your expert advice on the above.
Thank You.

Aren't you too late for this analysis? How come did you end up with this setup? You didn't audition it before buying?

Lets face it, the truth is - you wanted an amplifier that could:

(1) Power a lot of speakers (5/7 of them) together.
(2) Could do video switching for you.
(3) Could convert low-res video sources into high-res sources for you.
(4) Could do up scale your videos before sending it to your TV.
(5) Could allow connecting your optical out of sources, do to digital-to-analog conversion and play music out of that.
(6) Came with multi-purpose remote that didn't ask you to walk up and turn the volume up/down or change sources or any other settings.
(7) Had the necessary hardware/software for room calibration.

And most importantly, you still wanted it cheap, for about the same price as of a two channel stereo amp (a one-trick-pony).

Now why compare a one-trick-pony with a jack-of-all-trades? If a stereo amplifiers delivers more power into speakers, it better do so. Because that's the only thing it is asked to do. But an AVR is multi-talented machine, by design. If you want a multiply talented equipment to be as good as one which is specialized for one task, you need to pay for it. You can't just expect an AVR costing only about a stereo amp to be as powerful into all 7 channels as the stereo. And conversely, if you want an AVR which delivers as much power into 7 channels as a stereo amp in two channels then pay 5 times the money. 3 times for the power and two times for additional features.

There are no free lunches in the world, right? Here in this world, you get what you pay for. So, if you pay the price of a two-channel amp, and get a 7-channel amp and lots of other features you better pay accordingly.

Though I understand your plight and empathize with you as much as any two channel pandit would, I would be more rational and advise you to look at your decision-making. You are asking a cheap AVR to drive speakers like B&W, which are known to be power hogs. They are not satisfied until driven by stereo amplifiers such as Classe. And you are feeding them some cheap poor AVR. Too little for them.

Oh, btw, if you are clearly hearing distortion, your listening levels are really loud. Your solution?

(1) Get an AV pre-processor
(2) Get 2/3/4 stereo power amplifiers rated 200 watts per channel into 8 ohms
(3) Hook them up
(4) Sit back, turn the volume up and enjoy

Unless you do that, you just have to satisfy yourself with 2-channel pandits' empathy about just how horrible stuff called AVRs are. Most of these two-channel pandits have nil experience with good AVRs. Those who have heard good AVRs know what a good AVR can do. In your case, what you experience is a very badly put together setup. No thought given into component selection. Just buy things from here and there and throw them together in one setup. Go through the 4 steps above and you can hear absolutely distortion free sound at whatever levels you desire.

 

[avr]

Thank you all for the kind and not so kind evaluation and suggestions.
Be that as it may, I figure I have two choices either to do away with the speakers or get a good power amp. well I will look for a good power amp.
Now again I would request all you kind souls to suggest a good amp. but the catch is I m on a tight budget..say 100k (+)(-) 15k so the likes of Rotels, classes, etc. are out of budget. Any other suggestions please..

 

[ranjeetrain]

Thanks for taking the post in right spirit hyeah:

If you want to go the power amp route, look at the Sale section here. From time to time you will come across good deals and many of them under your budget.

However, a more economical way to improve your setup will be (unless you are too attached to your B&Ws to let them go :lol to change your fronts. There are many good speakers out there available for a very good price which are not too demanding of an amplifier. A speaker, even if it's 88/89 db sensitive will produce tons of loudness with an AVR, if it is not difficult to drive, i.e. it's a more uniform load on the amp hovering around 8 ohms.

Again, the Sale section here will be very helpful.

 

[shanmune]

Aren't you too late for this analysis? How come did you end up with this setup? You didn't audition it before buying?

Lets face it, the truth is - you wanted an amplifier that could:

(1) Power a lot of speakers (5/7 of them) together.
(2) Could do video switching for you.
(3) Could convert low-res video sources into high-res sources for you.
(4) Could do up scale your videos before sending it to your TV.
(5) Could allow connecting your optical out of sources, do to digital-to-analog conversion and play music out of that.
(6) Came with multi-purpose remote that didn't ask you to walk up and turn the volume up/down or change sources or any other settings.
(7) Had the necessary hardware/software for room calibration.

And most importantly, you still wanted it cheap, for about the same price as of a two channel stereo amp (a one-trick-pony).

Now why compare a one-trick-pony with a jack-of-all-trades? If a stereo amplifiers delivers more power into speakers, it better do so. Because that's the only thing it is asked to do. But an AVR is multi-talented machine, by design. If you want a multiply talented equipment to be as good as one which is specialized for one task, you need to pay for it. You can't just expect an AVR costing only about a stereo amp to be as powerful into all 7 channels as the stereo. And conversely, if you want an AVR which delivers as much power into 7 channels as a stereo amp in two channels then pay 5 times the money. 3 times for the power and two times for additional features.

There are no free lunches in the world, right? Here in this world, you get what you pay for. So, if you pay the price of a two-channel amp, and get a 7-channel amp and lots of other features you better pay accordingly.

Though I understand your plight and empathize with you as much as any two channel pandit would, I would be more rational and advise you to look at your decision-making. You are asking a cheap AVR to drive speakers like B&W, which are known to be power hogs. They are not satisfied until driven by stereo amplifiers such as Classe. And you are feeding them some cheap poor AVR. Too little for them.

Oh, btw, if you are clearly hearing distortion, your listening levels are really loud. Your solution?

(1) Get an AV pre-processor
(2) Get 2/3/4 stereo power amplifiers rated 200 watts per channel into 8 ohms
(3) Hook them up
(4) Sit back, turn the volume up and enjoy

Unless you do that, you just have to satisfy yourself with 2-channel pandits' empathy about just how horrible stuff called AVRs are. Most of these two-channel pandits have nil experience with good AVRs. Those who have heard good AVRs know what a good AVR can do. In your case, what you experience is a very badly put together setup. No thought given into component selection. Just buy things from here and there and throw them together in one setup. Go through the 4 steps above and you can hear absolutely distortion free sound at whatever levels you desire.

Few doubts I have ...
1. Since "avr" already has the receiver with pre-outs, he can very well connect the power amps to those preouts. Are you still suggesting him to go for pure seperates ?

2. Though I haven't witnessed how Onkyo 3010 performs, it's specs (I mean the lab test results) doesn't indicate it to be an average AVR. It looks to be one of the high end models from Onkyo (though I fully agree that it is no match for power amps). Delivering more than 120 watts per channel (with all 7 channels driven) is still too good for any reference level AVRs. Any way, the real picture seems to be different where the clipping/distortion started much earlier on 3010 and I am surprised at that. Also in reality, not all the 7 channels will be requiring the same power simultaneosuly except for the front-L/front-R/centre speakers.

 

[Vinod.R]

Hi AVR,

I have read all the previous postings and my question is what about an Emotiva 5/7 channel power amplifier? It should sure drive your speakers and you can buy an pre processor too. Just my two cents. It should come in your budget also.

Vinod

 

[shanmune]

Hi AVR,

I have read all the previous postings and my question is what about an Emotiva 5/7 channel power amplifier? It should sure drive your speakers and you can buy an pre processor too. Just my two cents. It should come in your budget also.

Vinod

Hi vinod
I am bit curious to understand on why you recommend to buy a preprocessor when "AVR" has a very high AV receiver with preouts. Even ranjeetrain also has recommended to have a preprocessor.

 

[Vinod.R]

My thinking is that B&W speakers are generally very power hungry and a dedicated pre and power combo might be a better idea than having an high end AVR where it has to do duties of both pre and power together. Just my thoughts. And this AVR can be sold off to concentrate more on the power section. But then it is my train of thought, which stands corrected if anyone else thinks otherwise .

Vinod

 

[shanmune]

My thinking is that B&W speakers are generally very power hungry and a dedicated pre and power combo might be a better idea than having an high end AVR where it has to do duties of both pre and power together. Just my thoughts.

Vinod

Ok ... I think I haven't put the question clearly in my previous post. Let me put it here more clearly here - "AVR" already has an high end AV receiver with preouts and he can simply buy only a power amp to connect it to the pre-outs. So this makes the AV receiver as purely an dedicated pre-amp unit and the power amp is seperately used through the preouts. In this combination, we still achieve the seperation of preamp and the power amp. In that context, why do we need to buy the preprocessor ?

 

[ranjeetrain]

Few doubts I have ...
1. Since "avr" already has the receiver with pre-outs, he can very well connect the power amps to those preouts. Are you still suggesting him to go for pure seperates ?

2. Though I haven't witnessed how Onkyo 3010 performs, it's specs (I mean the lab test results) doesn't indicate it to be an average AVR. It looks to be one of the high end models from Onkyo (though I fully agree that it is no match for power amps). Delivering more than 120 watts per channel (with all 7 channels driven) is still too good for any reference level AVRs. Any way, the real picture seems to be different where the clipping/distortion started much earlier on 3010 and I am surprised at that. Also in reality, not all the 7 channels will be requiring the same power simultaneosuly except for the front-L/front-R/centre speakers.

If the AVR has pre-outs than he just needs to add power amps, no need of an AV preprocessor. Best of all, he doesn't need many stereo power amps, one will do, as only his fronts speakers are power hungry.

Even I am surprised at the statement that he hears distortion. Typical distortion figures for modern SS amps are in small fractions of a percent (at the rated power). Even while delivering 16 watts of power (at which the volume should be fairly loud) it should not produce as clearly audible distortion as the OP claims. Come to think of it, typical distortion figure for a run of the mill tube amp is much much higher than an SS amp. They deliver low power as well. But even then the distortion is not unbearable.

It is quite possible that the problem is else where in the chain. But since the OP suspects his amp, we can only suggest him more powerful amp.

 

[shanmune]

If the AVR has pre-outs than he just needs to add power amps, no need of an AV preprocessor. Best of all, he doesn't need many stereo power amps, one will do, as only his fronts speakers are power hungry.

Even I am surprised at the statement that he hears distortion. Typical distortion figures for modern SS amps are in small fractions of a percent (at the rated power). Even while delivering 16 watts of power (at which the volume should be fairly loud) it should not produce as clearly audible distortion as the OP claims. Come to think of it, typical distortion figure for a run of the mill tube amp is much much higher than an SS amp. They deliver low power as well. But even then the distortion is not unbearable.

It is quite possible that the problem is else where in the chain. But since the OP suspects his amp, we can only suggest him more powerful amp.

Thanks for the clarification and I am in sync with you on this.

Before the OP can proceed to buy a power amp, it would be better if he can confirm that the distortion is only due to the power requirement of the speakers and not attributed to any other defect either at the receiver's end or at the speakers end. Any suggestions on how he can proceed with the diagnosis ? Even I am clueless except for one idea that I already proposed. That is, how about testing the receiver in stereo mode with only two channels driven (Front-L and Front-R only)? In that mode, the receiver will definetly have more power in it's reserve. With that, we need to see if the distortion occurs around the same volume leve (level - 40). If the distortion does not occur at that level, then the OP can try to increase the volume level till he sees the distortion. This should give an idea or an hint that this is generally a power requirement mismatch and there is no problem either with the receiver or with the speakers. If OP sees distortion around the same level, then either the receiver or the speakers needs some inspection. Onkyo 3010 is certified for THX Ultra 2 plus and still I am not convinced that 3010 is unable to drive the B&W speakers even at moderate volume level.

So it would be better to first verify if there is any problem and then take an informed decision on buying a power amp.

 

[avr]

Once again I thank all of you for being of great help.
Yes the 3010 has preouts. That way I just need a power amp. I was looking at the emo xpa 2/3/5 and ATI amps. but this one goes beyond my budget, like 1805 was quoted at 150k and 2005 225k as for emotiva the hassle of importing. But I m inclined towards emotiva. Other option was given by Audire the Cinema 7 amp. but did not get many reviews of the same. I m open to other suggestions too..
FYKI, if that makes any difference, I m using chord cables the Carnival silver screen.

 

[shanmune]

Another test the OP casn try is replacing the front 2 floor standers with the surround speakers. This is just only for verification purpose. I guess he has a very good rating surround speakers of 100 watts and see the distortion still exist. Going by the specs of 3010, it should be able to drive those speakers with minimal fuss.

 

[shanmune]

Once again I thank all of you for being of great help.
Yes the 3010 has preouts. That way I just need a power amp. I was looking at the emo xpa 2/3/5 and ATI amps. but this one goes beyond my budget, like 1805 was quoted at 150k and 2005 225k as for emotiva the hassle of importing. But I m inclined towards emotiva. Other option was given by Audire the Cinema 7 amp. but did not get many reviews of the same. I m open to other suggestions too..
FYKI, if that makes any difference, I m using chord cables the Carnival silver screen.

Hi AVR
I think you have missed my earlier post. So I am pasting it here again for your next set of actions.

Before the OP can proceed to buy a power amp, it would be better if he can confirm that the distortion is only due to the power requirement of the speakers and not attributed to any other defect either at the receiver's end or at the speakers end. Any suggestions on how he can proceed with the diagnosis ? Even I am clueless except for one idea that I already proposed. That is, how about testing the receiver in stereo mode with only two channels driven (Front-L and Front-R only)? In that mode, the receiver will definetly have more power in it's reserve. With that, we need to see if the distortion occurs around the same volume leve (level - 40). If the distortion does not occur at that level, then the OP can try to increase the volume level till he sees the distortion. This should give an idea or an hint that this is generally a power requirement mismatch and there is no problem either with the receiver or with the speakers. If OP sees distortion around the same level, then either the receiver or the speakers needs some inspection. Onkyo 3010 is certified for THX Ultra 2 plus and still I am not convinced that 3010 is unable to drive the B&W speakers even at moderate volume level.

So it would be better to first verify if there is any problem and then take an informed decision on buying a power amp.

Another test the OP casn try is replacing the front 2 floor standers with the surround speakers. This is just only for verification purpose. I guess he has a very good rating surround speakers of 100 watts and see the distortion still exist. Going by the specs of 3010, it should be able to drive those speakers with minimal fuss.

I would also suggest you to wait and see if others give you a better suggestion on the diagnosis part.

 

[adie]

Does keeping treble at +10 distort sound?

 

[Flash]

3010 - Not driving the 683 is a bit of a surprise.

I have tested my 809 with the 683's and it was fine at loud volumes . Relative volume at around 70.
However this was with 2 channels driven.

Considering the OP has a 5.1 if setup correctly - setting all the speakers as small and crossing the sub at 80hz. The 3010 should be more than adequate in a 10x10 room.
Since the difficult load of producing bass freq is routed to the sub.

However even if the speakers are set as large. The 683's should not be distorting at 40 on the volume knob. |
Whats your source ?
Have you tired any other speakers with the 3010 ?
Have you tried another amp with your 683's

 

[asliarun]

Once again I thank all of you for being of great help.
Yes the 3010 has preouts. That way I just need a power amp. I was looking at the emo xpa 2/3/5 and ATI amps. but this one goes beyond my budget, like 1805 was quoted at 150k and 2005 225k as for emotiva the hassle of importing. But I m inclined towards emotiva. Other option was given by Audire the Cinema 7 amp. but did not get many reviews of the same. I m open to other suggestions too..
FYKI, if that makes any difference, I m using chord cables the Carnival silver screen.

The Emotiva UPA-700 is only $500 and is rated at 100 watts per channel for a 4 ohm load when all channels are driven. Given that it is able to drive 7 channels simultaneously at 100 watts RMS, I think this would be a good option for you. You can use your Onkyo as a preamp and use this as a power amp.

Emotiva also has a 30 day return policy so worst case, you can always return it. I have an Emotiva preamp and they make some good quality stuff for the price.

Regarding how severe impedance dips can be, I have stereo mini-monitors that go down to 3 ohms as well. I have a 200 watt per channel power amp driving the speakers.

You don't necessarily need 200 watts per channel and I do think that 100 watts of reliable power per channel should be "good enough". I also say this because movies don't often require all channels to be driven at peak power for extended periods of time - movie audio loads are more spiky is nature, so as long as you have a good power section or a good power amp, you should be good to go.

Besides Emotiva, I had also mentioned Outlaw Audio but I think it will be a hassle to source it locally. Their model 7125 delivers 190 watts per channel in all 7 channels at 4 ohms. It costs $1000. While this may not be locally available (unless you have them ship it), it is indicative of what kind of a power amp you can get at this price point.