The Past, Present and Future of Vinyl

[ajay124]

'Second innings with vinyl' piqued my curiosity and made me google for more information about the EMT turntable. What I discovered about EMT, Garrard, Thorens and other great turntables made for interesting reading.

I don't have the intention of beginning my first innings in the near future, but I would not mind reading about, and discussing the past, present and future of vinyl. The great turntables and the great recordings. The digital onslaught which has overwhelmed vinyl. For the moment? Forever? Is vinyl an archaic exercise in nostalgia? Or is it the true fount of music, which has been polluted by the 'harmless' looking compact disc ? There are plenty of vinyl 'heavyweights' on the forum! I hope they will share their passion,knowledge, experience and high definition pictures! It may help in whiling away the summertime blues!

My primary reason for not venturing into vinyl territory is that I have not come across a vinyl store with a comprehensive and affordable collection of western classical music. If I could get even 50 great recordings, I may, I may

Some interesting links

Studiotechnik Dusch

homepage fabtech

My Turntables-Main

http://www.theanalogdept.com/

http://www.stefanopasini.it/Audio_Fremer_CD_vs_Vinyl.htm

 

[prem]

Saw your links and thought should mention my EMT was purchased from Studiotechnik Dusch.

 

[entsurgeon]

I hv a set of 12 vinyls of western classical released by readers digest. Get a vinyl spinner and I ll lend u some. You ve posted so many useful n informative posts tht from my side,even the postage would b on me. Alas, wont sell any.

 

[myriad]

Ajay,
I have 100 odd albums of western classical on vinyl. All printed between 60's to 80's . I picked up records of known and popular works of major composers and conductors. I am a total noob in classical music or could have bought works of lesser known conductors and composers.
Regards
Vasu

 

[akd]

good initiative......my 2 cents

I first heard records 10 years back and slowly with time developed likings over it, some part rationale and some craziness, I am purely in Hindi Film music and specially R.D.Burman, thanks to below par CD recording quality (they say remastering or whatever) a good quality record is a different experience all together, don't know much about western recordings but have heard a few ambient music and they are simply mind blowing

India has never been a reasonable hub for quality audio equipment, if one ventures into old dusty record shop they will notice the fate of our own OSTs, majority of listeners used ceramic cartridges which more often than not permanently damaged the records, owing to lack of supply, greed to make instant money during last 5 years or so Indian records have become a subject of infidelity as far as sales are concerned, scenario in abroad is different, still one gets to listen a near MINT quality CHARIOTS OF FIRE or DR. ZIVAGO or WEST SIDE STORY at a throw away price

I have heard audio enthusiasts saying vinyl is back, my personal take is analog playback is too intricate and refined for out country to adopt, how many cities forget about towns can one trace a good quality TT, used ones are mostly in Metros (pirated markets) and new ones are all imported, $ conversion+duties make them prohibitively costly, I don't think one should be forced to dole out a full month salary for a player which is just his hobby, its unfortunate but no one can help it

Vinyl used to be a symbol of superiority and it will remain so, the originality, artwork and authenticity with which it rests in shelves is hard to beat, by saying so I really don't think digital audio is any less capable if its used keeping in mind its limitations, a 128 or 192 Kbps media or a WAV media does not become superior until they are produced from the original recording with proper setting, just by enhancing a particular part of the spectrum will only lead to mass sale of mp3s and nothing more

the recording companies definitely have share of responsibilities, HMV have recently started releasing records by getting pressed abroad, no wonder because of reasons best known to them in one hand they are getting black marketed in open day light and one the other hand they are lying unsold in online stores, for playing records one needs TT, so what they did tied up with LENCO (a popular european brand of past) and offered a few entry level direct drives which hardly any one has heard before, so one can understand the future of these TTs

there are people, no matter what it takes, will continue with their long lasting relationship with TTs and in terms of mass well I can only use one word "bleak"

sorry for the long write-up, keep posting

 

[ajay124]

prem
I will wait for your, unbiased and unprejudiced, comments and comparison of EMT vis-a-vis Esoteric. If you can find a few recordings of the same music, on both cd and vinyl, then it would be easier to decide which format is better

ent surgeon
I may accept your generous offer one day when I have a TT. Have you ever compared the sound of cassette, vinyl and cd recordings, from comparable systems, in your dedicated 24x18 ( HUGE! ) room? Do you think the difference is big enough to be accurately identified in a blind test of the three formats?

myriad
Where did you buy the classical recordings from? Which labels have issued these recordings? What is the sound quality like?

 

[arj]

prem
I will wait for your, unbiased and unprejudiced, comments and comparison of EMT vis-a-vis Esoteric. If you can find a few recordings of the same music, on both cd and vinyl, then it would be easier to decide which format is better

ent surgeon
I may accept your generous offer one day when I have a TT. Have you ever compared the sound of cassette, vinyl and cd recordings, from comparable systems, in your dedicated 24x18 ( HUGE! ) room? Do you think the difference is big enough to be accurately identified in a blind test of the three formats?

myriad
Where did you buy the classical recordings from? Which labels have issued these recordings? What is the sound quality like?

My dear friend...you are asking questions which which you will only regret, if simplicity of playback is all you are looking at :lol:

let it be....desist/resist the Keeda

 

[ajay124]

arj

At the moment my interest in turntables is purely 'academic'. I have no intention of jumping into the vinyl arena any time soon. I don't have the funds. And I don't have the conviction. In the event of a showdown between SACD/Esoteric and Vinyl/EMT, I would still bet on the Esoteric!

But I don't want to retire permanently into a digital/solid state nest. I would like to hear out and consider the views and opinions of the folks in the camp across the border. The Vinyl and Tube camp

 

[myriad]

Ajay,
All my classical music records are purchased locally from roadside vendors. The record labels are mostly Duetche Gramophone &EMI Red Label. The only problem is i have to keep track what's coming in, the condition of record and the price they ask for. All these records were bought for 5o to 100 rupee a piece. Recently, these vendors have turned smart after seeing this small resurgence in vinyl and the price they are being sold in Music Wirld and other big stores.
Regards
Vasu

 

[stevieboy]

prem
I will wait for your, unbiased and unprejudiced, comments and comparison of EMT vis-a-vis Esoteric. If you can find a few recordings of the same music, on both cd and vinyl, then it would be easier to decide which format is better

Ajay!

This is a decision best made on a personal level. You have to live with vinyl for a while to figure out whether you see a benefit or not.

As for availability, classical is far easier to source with pristine second hand records ready for the taking, well not so much now that I've snapped most up But seriously, they are far better maintained than other genres. I don't have the knowledge of classical that you have, but I can tell you one thing, listening to classical on LP is a far more soul satisfying experience than I ever thought possible.

I have umpteen duplicates on CD and LP and not one CD comes even close to reproducing that warm body and lifelife texture that LPs put out.

Then again I'm a die hard vinyl nut so beware of my wallet lightening suggestions

Regards

 

[Hiten]

ajay, I think prem has best and practical approach to this. listen to digitally recorded music on digital system and some fantastically recorded and pressed music (Classical+rock+old hindi movies) on analogue setup. I was very lucky to hear high end setup at manav's place and at the same time have heard both vinyl & CD. Vinyl sound on his setup is amazing.
Technically CD format is superior (Some would argue with that) but some analogue recordings are better heard on vinyl. I guess Classical Music pressings are very well taken care of for high fidelity because of their long lasting value.

 

[quad]

Technically CD format is superior (Some would argue with that)

Not arguing, but technically, analog is always better - provided you
recording and replay mechanisms do not introduce degradation.
Also the CD format was compromised from the start. So we have
"improved" formats like SACD etc.

 

[ajay124]

In recent times a lot of great music has become available on Hybrid SACD. Prices are coming down. And the SQ, even on my red book CDP is sensational!

A complete box set of Beethoven's nine symphonies. Bernard Haitink and LSO. Hybrid SACD. 20 pounds!
Beethoven: Complete Symphonies: London Symphony Orchestra, Ludwig van Beethoven, Bernard Haitink, Karen Cargill, Lars Vogt, Twyla Robinson, John MacMaster, London Symphony Chorus: Amazon.co.uk: Music

I did a search for Beethoven's symphonies on vinyl, at the Amazon UK site, and came up with Zilch. Zero. Nada. I persisted and did a search on the Amazon US site. And came up with one vinyl boxset. By a conductor I am not familiar with. 269 pounds!
Amazon.com: Nine Beethoven Symphonies (Tgv) [Vinyl]: Krips, London Symphony Orchestra: Music

 

[mahiruha]

Hi,
here is a good vinyl collection on Beethoven. I have it and sounds pretty good.
Amazon.com: Beethoven Edition 9 Symphonien Wiener Philharmoniker - Karl Bohm Vinyl LP Record By Deutsche Grammophon Box Set of 8: Music
Thanks.

 

[arj]

arj

At the moment my interest in turntables is purely 'academic'. I have no intention of jumping into the vinyl arena any time soon. I don't have the funds. And I don't have the conviction. In the event of a showdown between SACD/Esoteric and Vinyl/EMT, I would still bet on the Esoteric!

But I don't want to retire permanently into a digital/solid state nest. I would like to hear out and consider the views and opinions of the folks in the camp across the border. The Vinyl and Tube camp

exactly my view last year..had no vinyl, n0 funds and no TT.

on a more serious note,classical music is one area where Vinyl and good recordings abound. local kabadiwalla who buys LPs would have some great ones too.

I got into just for old hindi music most of which are really bad in CDs...but Prems esoteric gave a different dimension to it. i believe today we have CD players which do a lot more in presentation than in the past.

 

[ajay124]

Hi,
here is a good vinyl collection on Beethoven. I have it and sounds pretty good.
Amazon.com: Beethoven Edition 9 Symphonien Wiener Philharmoniker - Karl Bohm Vinyl LP Record By Deutsche Grammophon Box Set of 8: Music
Thanks.

Karl Bohm and Vienna Philharmonic would be superb! In the same class as the Karajan/ Berliner Philharmoniker and the Haitink/ LSO sets, which I mentioned above

 

[ajay124]

exactly my view last year..had no vinyl, n0 funds and no TT.

on a more serious note,classical music is one area where Vinyl and good recordings abound. local kabadiwalla who buys LPs would have some great ones too.

I got into just for old hindi music most of which are really bad in CDs...but Prems esoteric gave a different dimension to it. i believe today we have CD players which do a lot more in presentation than in the past.

arj
You are staying in a metro city where kabadiwallahs are selling Vinyl. I am staying in a tier two city, where you could search the entire city and probably not find a single vinyl for sale anywhere!

 

[akd]

arj
You are staying in a metro city where kabadiwallahs are selling Vinyl. I am staying in a tier two city, where you could search the entire city and probably not find a single vinyl for sale anywhere!

I understand your situation as me in the same (Guwahati)
but am I wrong if I say if there is a will there is a.....

its true that choice of media is purely individual, if you are into digital format so be it its all about enjoyment and if you are satisfied then full stop! there are many recordings whose digital version is simply superb and I don't intend to improve it as I knwo it will take hell amount of money and time

 

[arj]

arj
You are staying in a metro city where kabadiwallahs are selling Vinyl. I am staying in a tier two city, where you could search the entire city and probably not find a single vinyl for sale anywhere!

if interested just give me your list and Ill let you know what i find @Rs 100-150 an LP but all dirty...i can ship them to you

But I believe with a good digital rig you are OK. the really good stuff will soon be available on Hi Rez digital which is at a different level altogether.

 

[ajay124]

The compact disc baby was born out of a combined operation by the big boys of consumer electronics, Sony and Philips. In 1980 they jointly published the first edition of the Red Book. The Red Book laid down the parameters and technical specs for manufacturing CD's.

There is a story (true? false ?) that initially the maximum running time of a cd was supposed to be 60 minutes. But one of the early champions of the new technology, Herbert Von Karajan, (The first cd pressing made for testing was a Karajan/ Berliner Philharmoniker recording ) convinced Sony/Philips to increase it to 79.8 minutes, in order to fit Beethoven's ninth symphony on one disc. The additional playing time was also used to entice consumers away from vinyl by offering bonus tracks and alternate takes on cds! Extending the playing time is probably done at the cost of some degradation to the sound, because of higher compression of data.

The Red Book specified that two channel digital encoding would be done at 16-bit rate sampled at 44.1kHz. The method used for encoding is the Linear Pulse Code Modulation (PCM). These specs were considered sufficient to reproduce the audible frequency range of 20 Hz to 20kHz, and they have been around for three decades now. Although the Red Book was updated in 1999.

According to the critics of the Red Book 'boundaries', the 16 bit sampling rate introduces a 'graininess' into the sound, which progressively increases as we crank up the volume. It is also felt that the 44.1kHz sampling frequency, restricts the frequency response of music.

In the 21st century recording companies have tried to push through the borders erected by the Red Book. For various reasons. Copyright protection. Higher resolution. Desperation? Like vinyl in the early 80's, the compact disc too is "waking
up and smelling the coffee". A cold icy wind is blowing through this tower of song.

Legal and illegal downloads are doing to the compact disc, what the compact disc did to vinyl. Marginalizing it and pushing it into an audiophile niche. Like the vinyl/turntable 'believers' the compact disc/cdp believers will also have to work hard to convince themselves, that they may be out of step with the present, but are happily and freely dwelling in a 'glorious' past