TT beginner query

[eddie_fox]

Hi,

I am a complete TT starter, so my language might be a bit 'simpleton'ish. I have collected a few old records and am looking to broaden my collection and listening to them. I am not a DJ nor can i claim to be an audiophile yet. I am looking to start with a decent TT to listen to (I have a few western classical, classic rock, easy listening stuff)

I am on a bit of a tight budget, my budget is 500 / 40,000INR / 750$ and I need to buy a decent hi-fi speaker set and TT in that. I am considering Boston acoustics CS 226 for the speakers, as i am getting a good deal on this back in India, where i will be using the setup. I am currently researching the following 3 TTs (all new ones, I am very nervous going down the second hand TT, as the more research I do, the more confusing the market gets... so, may be for my next TT), which I have narrowed down to my needs:

1. Audiotechnica LP120
2. Rega RP1
3. Pro-ject debut carbon

I am leaning towards AT 120, as I can't afford to buy a pre+power amp or an integrated amp immediately, but want to upgrade in a few months. So I intend to use the in-built phono stage in the TT. I am not sure if i can do this in Rega, but I think project has a model with phono, so am split between them.

Could you please help me in choosing one of them, considering I'd like to stick to the factory setup as is for a while and not change anything (including the cartridge), so I am basically looking for a plug and play, but with opportunities of upgrade. I think I have a discerning year for acoustics and want a clean and clear sound. Any suggestions or advice guys?

 

[stevieboy]

Hi Eddie,

Good to have another vinyl lover that too in Bangalore. Would recommend the Rega or the Project. Search the forum for the thread that member Sachu has initiated a simple cheap phonostage DIY build that you could do. CNC phonostage for MM carts and there's one for MC also. Should cost you about 2-3 thousand rupees. It will serve you far better than a cheap commercial one in your budget range. If you're absolutely zero in DIY I'm sure someone here can help you solder it.

Will also be a more flexible solution for later on when you want to upgrade your TT, you can keep the DIY phonostage.

By the way you say you can't afford to buy a pre power or an integrated but you'll need some amp to take the output from the phonostage. You can't run your speakers from a phonostage itself.

Regards

 

[eddie_fox]

Hi Eddie,

Good to have another vinyl lover that too in Bangalore. Would recommend the Rega or the Project. Search the forum for the thread that member Sachu has initiated a simple cheap phonostage DIY build that you could do. CNC phonostage for MM carts and there's one for MC also. Should cost you about 2-3 thousand rupees. It will serve you far better than a cheap commercial one in your budget range. If you're absolutely zero in DIY I'm sure someone here can help you solder it.

Will also be a more flexible solution for later on when you want to upgrade your TT, you can keep the DIY phonostage.

By the way you say you can't afford to buy a pre power or an integrated but you'll need some amp to take the output from the phonostage. You can't run your speakers from a phonostage itself.

Regards

Hi Stevieboy,

I am currently in UK and am due back in Bangalore in a few months now. Thanks for the response. I am sure I will be seeking more advice from people like you who know your stuff in the future too.
I am a technical dud, mate. So DIY is a bit scary. I am not an idiot though and maybe with some help can get things done there.
I was considering the AT 120 over the other two as it seems so much easier to setup and use, what with its ability to work from 110V to 220V (which saves me from running around for an adapter there), built-in phono stage and direct drive. I have a sony cd/tape player with a line-in at home and was hoping to connect this straight to the AT 120 and use the line feature in it, till I could buy an integrated amp. That is why I was leaning towards AT.... what do you think?
Do you think I should buy the TT and come back to bangalore and source an amp or get it built? would you be able to recommend some solutions in bangalore, do you reckon? I wanted to buy the boston CS 226 from Hifimart and it is going for 23K... any suggestions there???
Sorry for the number of queries, i really am quite a novice as you can see. Thanks for your help!
p.s - Finally, any thoughts on a second hand TT in bangalore or nearby? Heard of any decent ones going?
Ta!

 

[ukjeyaraj]

There is one for sale at our forum. Check this

http://www.hifivision.com/sale-owner/44538-pro-ject-rpm-1-genie-shure-m97xe-sale.html

 

[greenhorn]

If i were in your shoes, I would pick up a used Turntable and older amp off ebay. They are available for a much lower price, and good turntables and amps are available there for a pittance and for the price of the turntables listed above, a used TT will be much better. And voltage in the UK and india are the same, so no worries there.

 

[stevieboy]

Hi Stevieboy,

I am currently in UK and am due back in Bangalore in a few months now.

I have a sony cd/tape player with a line-in at home and was hoping to connect this straight to the AT 120 and use the line feature in it, till I could buy an integrated amp. That is why I was leaning towards AT.... what do you think?

Do you think I should buy the TT and come back to bangalore and source an amp or get it built? would you be able to recommend some solutions in bangalore, do you reckon?

Hi Eddie,

Your CD/tape player seems to have built in amp so you should ok. Generally you get stuff cheaper in the UK so might make sense to pick it up there. I'd suggest going to a few dealers and listening to the Rega and the Project and deciding. Sound quality wise these would be better than the AT. Rega tends to sound more exciting a bit of speed bump, the Project a bit more neutral. Listen and see which one you like. Not too sure about the AT. Send a PM to Sachu888 on the forum and see if he has any kits left for the phono. Its pretty simple to do and you should be able to manage it by taking it to a local electrical shop and asking them to solder in the parts as per the diagram supplied. In future if you want to upgrade your TT, with the AT you're stuck as you will not have a phono then. Also UK works on our Indian voltage too. It's the US that is 110V no?

You can always get a cheap amp from the local electronics market and make do with that till you can afford better stuff. That's what I did when I first started off long long back in college days, a local amp and local speakers but heaven for under a thousand bucks.

No clue about the Bostons, would suggest you get the TT then come down and shop around. Though even for speakers you'd get some good brands for cheaper there, but you might not have the budget for them right now is what I'm guessing...

You get powered speakers like Audioengine A 2 or A5 for about 15k/25k here in India, might also get them there, these don't require an amp so you might be able to take the line out from your cd/tape player and plug them into the speakers.

Regards

 

[eddie_fox]

Hi Eddie,

Your CD/tape player seems to have built in amp so you should ok. Generally you get stuff cheaper in the UK so might make sense to pick it up there. I'd suggest going to a few dealers and listening to the Rega and the Project and deciding. Sound quality wise these would be better than the AT. Rega tends to sound more exciting a bit of speed bump, the Project a bit more neutral. Listen and see which one you like. Not too sure about the AT. Send a PM to Sachu888 on the forum and see if he has any kits left for the phono. Its pretty simple to do and you should be able to manage it by taking it to a local electrical shop and asking them to solder in the parts as per the diagram supplied. In future if you want to upgrade your TT, with the AT you're stuck as you will not have a phono then. Also UK works on our Indian voltage too. It's the US that is 110V no?

You can always get a cheap amp from the local electronics market and make do with that till you can afford better stuff. That's what I did when I first started off long long back in college days, a local amp and local speakers but heaven for under a thousand bucks.

No clue about the Bostons, would suggest you get the TT then come down and shop around. Though even for speakers you'd get some good brands for cheaper there, but you might not have the budget for them right now is what I'm guessing...

You get powered speakers like Audioengine A 2 or A5 for about 15k/25k here in India, might also get them there, these don't require an amp so you might be able to take the line out from your cd/tape player and plug them into the speakers.

Regards

Thanks for that. I will consider all that you said. regarding 110V... my brother is in the US and I am looking at getting him to order from there for me if necessary, so the question about adapter. But UK is 220V.
I think i will be a bit prudent and buy a TT when i am here and source amps/self powered speakers/normal speakers there in india. I think i may be able to save a bit of money doing that and also will be able to listen to them before purchase.
Someone elsewhere suggested a Denon DP -300F as an alternative, any thoughts on those? anyone? Thanks a lot.

 

[sachu888]

Thanks for that. I will consider all that you said. regarding 110V... my brother is in the US and I am looking at getting him to order from there for me if necessary, so the question about adapter. But UK is 220V.
I think i will be a bit prudent and buy a TT when i am here and source amps/self powered speakers/normal speakers there in india. I think i may be able to save a bit of money doing that and also will be able to listen to them before purchase.
Someone elsewhere suggested a Denon DP -300F as an alternative, any thoughts on those? anyone? Thanks a lot.

I would suggest look for the used TTs in Uk.You may find few good belt drive TTs like Pioneer PL10/PL12 etc for approx $100 on ebay Uk.They will perform better than current entry level TTs.

Regards,
Sachin

 

[reubensm]

Hi Eddie, welcome to the forum and to the world of vinyl. Since you are new to vinyl, and with the assumption that you've already gone through a lot of vinyl-related literature, online, you may have come to understand that this format is definitely not a plug-and-play format like with Cd players. One actually has to evolve with the equipment and gain as much of practical knowledge while on the journey. One can take the usual approach wherein you make your investment, buy something expensive and then start using it. For first timers, this approach, more often than not, ends up with a lot of heart burn. One has to understand the format, the dependencies and the practical applications very well before one can get the best out of any turntable.

All these aspects have been talked about at length previously but let me give you a helicopter view:

Types of Turntables (very broad approach):

One can get to listen to records buy either buying an old turntable (vintage) or by buying a modern/contemporary one off the shelf. There is often a passionate debate floating around as to which is better. Some say that vintage turntables are better engineered with better build quality, while some say that modern turntables are scientifically engineered with greater precision and finnese. Again, some believe that older records sound better on vintage equipment. These opinions generally tend to be personal but the bottom line is, investing in a modern turntable is a more expensive proposition than vintage. With vintage, you can always try your luck, and if you don't like the experience, you can always sell it off or even (in some cases) write it off. The ground rule with pre-used electronics is "the more expensive it is, the less likely it is to sell" and also "the higher the purchase price, the greater the commercial loss on pre-used sale and depreciation" (sorry but that was the accountant in me, speaking )

2) Turntable Hierarchy (very broad approach)

If you were to walk by a street lined with TTs on both sides, you'd have a very long journey to cover. There a loads of options available. However, please note that I am referring to turntables for stereo (at least low end of the hi-fi SQ spectrum) listening and not portable stuff (like suitcase record players, kiddie record players, etc) or DJ stuff. At the beginner's end of the road, you'd most commonly find belt drive, fully automatic turntables which are fitted with magnetic carts (Moving Magnet) and generally come with in-built phonostages. These turntables are more often than not, made of plastic, are light weight and cost between $50 and $150 depending on where you buy them from. The common brands in vogue are Sony, Technics, Teac, Pioneer, Audio Technica etc. These are perfect for starters who are not familiar with the format or do not have any knowledge or equipment for phono listening. These are as close one can get to the plug-and-play concept. Infact one does not need to have a phono-compatible amp as well. Most of these turntables don't have adjustable tonearms, etc so there is no calibration one needs to worry about.

When you look at the next level, you'd generally find a lot of vintage stuff like Technics, Garrard, Thorens, Lenco, Dual, Mass Market Japanese TTs, etc. This spectrum is very broad with perhaps the Mass Market Japanese TTs on the lower end, followed by Technics Direct Drivers and then to the biggies like the Garrard Transcription TTs (x01 series), the Lencos (GL series) and Thorens (TD series). On a parallel track, you have the modern options like Thorens, Rega, Project, MusicHall and a host of other top names with a host of products in different ranges. Before venturing down this zone (both vintage and modern), you'd need to have decent understanding of the format and the pre-requisites for good sq from your turntable.

To sum up, which ever approach you take, always try to gather as much of info as you can. I've been associated with the format for about 35 years now but every day, when I open up the phono section of this forum, there's always something new to learn. Its a wonderful hobby to have and a highly satisfying and rewarding world to live in

 

[reubensm]

Here's a nice article for guidance, just in case you have'nt seen it already:

http://www.artofmanliness.com/2012/11/09/a-beginners-guide-to-buying-your-first-turntable/

 

[eddie_fox]

I would suggest look for the used TTs in Uk.You may find few good belt drive TTs like Pioneer PL10/PL12 etc for approx $100 on ebay Uk.They will perform better than current entry level TTs.

Regards,
Sachin

Thanks Sachin!

I will start considering second hand TTs, though I am a bit nervous and overwhelmed with amount of info out there, each TT has a ton of good and bad reviews/comments.
But bearing in mind my requirements (i.e., Good quality sound, within 25,000Rs, built-in phono, good cartridge before upgrade, easy upgradability), can you suggest a few models (along with the pioneers you have mentioned already) and I shall start looking around here and online.
Recommendations from other welcome and appreciated too.

N

 

[sachu888]

You should opt for good condition used TT.Belt drive or DD doesn't matter.New budget Denons and Audio Technica TTs are not good and you will start hating TTs.You can get good quality vintage DD/BD TTs at very low price.Few good models to look for:
Direct Drive:
Technics SL D2/D3/D202/D303,(approx cost Rs 7000),JVC QL-5/QL7(Rs12000 approx)
Belt Drive:
Pioneer Pl10/Pl12/Pl15 etc (Rs 7000 approx)
All of the above table are easily available on ebay UK.You can even get audition in some cases.Built in phono/USB TTs are generally not good.My suggestion is to get a separate TT,buy an outboard Phono or build one,get a good cart and get a low cost Tripath amp or any Vintage amp.Everything can be had within Rs 25k or little more.

Regards,
Sachin

 

[vnmathur57]

@eddie_fox
If you buy any new TT costing less than 30K INR, you will end up with an inferior machine and though you may join the group of ` also have', your vinyl journey will end in no time. I was also in your position a few months back and from the experience/education I got I'll suggest to go for a good used TT and a separate phonostage as being advised by FMs. Stereo/amp/speakers come in a wide range and the deciding factor IMO will be your budget.

 

[eddie_fox]

@eddie_fox
If you buy any new TT costing less than 30K INR, you will end up with an inferior machine and though you may join the group of ` also have', your vinyl journey will end in no time. I was also in your position a few months back and from the experience/education I got I'll suggest to go for a good used TT and a separate phonostage as being advised by FMs. Stereo/amp/speakers come in a wide range and the deciding factor IMO will be your budget.

Any suggestions of models?

 

[vnmathur57]

That depends on what is available on sale. Generally speaking, any Dual/Technic/Sony etc will do. Can't help here as I have not experienced many models. Other FMs may help.:sad:

 

[shafic]

If i were in your shoes, I would pick up a used Turntable and older amp off ebay. They are available for a much lower price, and good turntables and amps are available there for a pittance and for the price of the turntables listed above, a used TT will be much better. And voltage in the UK and india are the same, so no worries there.

Very practical suggestion:clapping:

 

[eddie_fox]

Guys,

Thanks for all the advice. I am now looking at the second hand market, quite a drastic shift considering I didn't want to even bother.
I have realized that Technics 1200/1210 seem the most sought after TTs in this segment and I canfind a few used ones online. Do you recommend this TT?
Also, if anyone could help me understand the difference between the technics Sl-120 and the 1200MK2, as i see both in the market. I take it there is some difference in the tone arm design, am I correct? Can anyone shed any light on this please?
I see a SL-120 with a replaced 1200MK2 tone arm in the used online market. Do you think I should go for this?
Finally, some nice rega p3s out there...worth looking at?


Thanks,
N

 

[greenhorn]

A lot of the 1200's out there have been abused on the DJ circuit, and their prices are a bit on the higher side (still cheaper than the prices in india though)

 

[sachu888]

Guys,

Thanks for all the advice. I am now looking at the second hand market, quite a drastic shift considering I didn't want to even bother.
I have realized that Technics 1200/1210 seem the most sought after TTs in this segment and I canfind a few used ones online. Do you recommend this TT?
Also, if anyone could help me understand the difference between the technics Sl-120 and the 1200MK2, as i see both in the market. I take it there is some difference in the tone arm design, am I correct? Can anyone shed any light on this please?
I see a SL-120 with a replaced 1200MK2 tone arm in the used online market. Do you think I should go for this?
Finally, some nice rega p3s out there...worth looking at?


Thanks,
N

Technics 1200/1210 both are excellent performers.Technics SL-120 is also very good TT,not as famous as 1200/1210.All of these Technics are fully manual and will give you great listening experience.
Rega P3 is also nice.Could you tell me the selling price for Technics SL-120.
EDIT: I think SL-120 used to come with SME arm which is much better than any Technics or Rega Tonearms.

Regards,
Sachin

 

[eddie_fox]

Technics 1200/1210 both are excellent performers.Technics SL-120 is also very good TT,not as famous as 1200/1210.All All of these Technics are fully manual and will give you great listening experience.
Rega P3 is also nice.Could you tell me the selling price for Technics SL-120.
EDIT: I think SL-120 used to come with SME arm which is much better than any Technics or Rega Tonearms.

Regards,
Sachin

The SL-120 one I am looking at is on ebay.co.uk and is selling for 290 (26,000Rs approx). All the technics are between 200-300(17,000 - 28,000Rs). I am very aware that I can get a brand new AT/Rega/Pro-ject for the same price. Would you still recommend Technics over these?
I am also looking for slightly cheaper TTs like pioneer PL12D (60), Tecnics SL DD33 (100)... any suggestions?

Thanks,
N