Tube (tubelike) amp for usher mini dancer

[himadri]

Hi
Looking to upgrade my Denon amp (PMA2000 ivr) at present driving the Usher mini dancer 1.
My room size is smallish -12 x14 .
Budget 1-1.4 lakhs. jazz/rock/jazzrock/indian classical.
My source is denon dcd700ae/jvc qly5f tt.
The dancers are 85db , 2 way with beryllium tweeters ,easy to drive (stays generally higher than 8 ohms min 6 ohms), slightly hot at the top , woofer needs a bit of damping , and need smooth and slightly warm electronics.
The denon is adequate on the smoothness and woofer control but sounds a bit thin.
Have heard the usher power r 1.5 , odyssey khartago, symphonic line integrated rg10, leben cs600, ayon orion with the ushers in bits and pieces.
The usher and odyssey amps are very good but would prefer slightly smoother sound.
I liked the leben best and then the symphonic line next but both are beyond my budget.
The ayon sounded very good , like a solid state , would prefer a softer amp.
Also liked Viren's GM70 monoblocks but don't know how the ushers will handle the low damping factor of single ended amplification
As I live in Chattisgarh hence product reliability and service is important.
Looking for advice preferably on tube /tubelike amplification.
Cheers

 

[captrajesh]

I'm not sure if Ushers with 85dB sensitivity could be referred to as 'easy to drive' They would be hard to drive IMHO.

A tube amp would not cut ice with such speakers. If you want tube like sound, try a tube pre and SS Power amp.

 

[jenson]

ditto...was about the suggest he contact cyber vinay for his elusive EAR 864 pre amp..

 

[Sumanta]

Ditto from me too...

 

[himadri]

I'm not sure if Ushers with 85dB sensitivity could be referred to as 'easy to drive' They would be hard to drive IMHO.

A tube amp would not cut ice with such speakers. If you want tube like sound, try a tube pre and SS Power amp.

Thanks Capt,Jenson, Sumanta
The reason I wrote 'easy to drive' was because I was surprised at the way the 38 watts leben and 40 watts ayon handled the ushers. The leben had very nice tonality , though slightly looser in the bass registers.The ayon in pentode mode had tighter bass and didn't sound strained at all but didnt have the full and thick tonality of the leben.Vasu (Myriad)in this forum uses the ayon spirit and seems satisfied.
But yes , your suggestion is well taken. In fact the denon can be used as a power amplifier with an external pre.Any more suggestions?
Cheers

 

[SatMumbai]

Thanks Capt,Jenson, Sumanta
The reason I wrote 'easy to drive' was because I was surprised at the way the 38 watts leben and 40 watts ayon handled the ushers. The leben had very nice tonality , though slightly looser in the bass registers.The ayon in pentode mode had tighter bass and didn't sound strained at all but didnt have the full and thick tonality of the leben.Vasu (Myriad)in this forum uses the ayon spirit and seems satisfied.
But yes , your suggestion is well taken. In fact the denon can be used as a power amplifier with an external pre.Any more suggestions?
Cheers

I chose not to go to the tube route for the obvious reasons. One make which comes to my head is Pathos. They are great amps. I used to have Pathos Inpol2. Great sound but was not at peace with the size, power consumption and heat generation. If you are fine with them the SQ is wonderful. I can recommend the Logos or the new Ethos. Depends on availability.
The other main strem amplifier is the Marantz Pearl. It is wonderful amplfier with very silky highs and almost valve like mid range. Again, I am not aware of the prices / availability but these two are keepers, IMHO.

 

[SatMumbai]

In fact the denon can be used as a power amplifier with an external pre.Any more suggestions?
Cheers

BTW, I got into HiFi because of Denon PMA 2000 (I guess some 5 years back, I heard the amp playing at a store with some huge JBL speakers and the resolution / detail was so good with a great tight bass, that I instantly fell in love with the high end HiFi hobby

 

[himadri]

Thanks Sat
The pathos hybrid amlplifiers seem to be made for the task.Of course availability/ price is another issue.Worth exploring.
Not sure about the marantz pearl though , not really sure how much they shall be an upgrade over the denon.But thanks for suggesting.
cheers

 

[jenson]

You are lucky to have viren @ lyrita within your reach; talk with the pro's !

 

[himadri]

Hi
The denon is adequate on the smoothness and woofer control but sounds a bit thin.
Looking for advice preferably on tube /tubelike amplification.
Cheers

Hi
Carried my Denon PMA 2000 to my friend's in order to A/B with my friend's all Usher set up of 307/R1.5 / mini dancer2. Used only CD player as source (the entry level, but ever so remarkable marantz 6003)
By the way, Vinyls are a whole different ball game with the (all Ushers).
The Denon didnt sound thin at all vis a vis the Usher amplification with the usher md2 speakers and I was taken aback.
hence it seems it is my mini dancer1 that sounds thinner than the dancer2.
The denon also sounded rounded/softer and more forgiving than than usher amplification but did not loose much in dynamics,though it seems to run out of steam at higher volumes in the lower frequencies in driving the 4 ohms mini dancer2. No such drivability issues with my 8 ohms mini dancer1.
Inference:
Its all about synergy between the components notwithstanding the class/price of the items.

cheers

 

[ranjeetrain]

Do you get Yaqin amps in India? An FM here has one. If the two of you are in the same city, you might wanna give it a try.

 

[bhagwan]

extra post

 

[bhagwan]

Sir,

Do you want a Pre & a Power or a Tube Integrated ?

If you plan to go the 'seperate' way - then I have a South Korean Allnic Pre Amplifier for sale - 230V.

L-3000A

LP = 11,000/-
SP = 3750/-
All Prices are US $'s [Before some FM's 'pounce' on me]

It is a good pre - going @ super price...Black Colour.



allnicaudio.com/eng/products/view.htm?brandcode=0010030000000004&page=1

 

[corElement]

Hi, for learning sake, could you tell me why the gm70 in SET is not a suitable option for the ushers? Is it because of the low efficiency?

 

[pratimbayal]

Himadri.


I suggest to go with odyssey kismet. It is solid state amp but with tube like sound signature. Use TVC passive pre amp. We will be done in you budget ( might exceed little )

 

[virajsingh]

I have a feeling that Lyrita GM70 at 35 Watts (Class A Power) would be adequate to drive the ushers....i was recently surprised to see the ease with which a 20 Watt Class A amp was able to handle a 86 db efficiency Harbeth.

Hi, for learning sake, could you tell me why the gm70 in SET is not a suitable option for the ushers? Is it because of the low efficiency?

 

[corElement]

I have a feeling that Lyrita GM70 at 35 Watts (Class A Power) would be adequate to drive the ushers....i was recently surprised to see the ease with which a 20 Watt Class A amp was able to handle a 86 db efficiency Harbeth.

That's what I figured as well but I'm confused about the dampening he's brought up, so wanted to understand. From what I know high dampening speakers have better bass tightness but affects other things like slew and transitions in the midrange and above. Granted there are a lot of other variable factors that also have to be taken into account but still..just curious and open to learning.

 

[jai1611]

That's what I figured as well but I'm confused about the dampening he's brought up, so wanted to understand. From what I know high dampening speakers have better bass tightness but affects other things like slew and transitions in the midrange and above. Granted there are a lot of other variable factors that also have to be taken into account but still..just curious and open to learning.

A suitable level of damping factor depends entirely on the speaker. Speakers which otherwise tend to have boomy bass need higher damping. Lean speakers often sound better with somehwat underdamped bass (hence the synergy between single drivers and tubes)

 

[odyssey]

There are too many people who are using the terms sensitivity and efficiency interchangeably. Marketing guys love this term as its a bit misleading.
The simple value of 86dB or 84dB or 87dB just indicates the SPL level at 1m.

However not everyone lists whether this measurement has been done at 2.83 V or 1W of amp power consumption (also related to the speaker impedance) and this is where the problem comes up. Generally, manufacturers will say 1W when they actually mean 2.8 V is applied to the driver when the nominal impedance is lower than 8 ohms..and some will do the exact opposite.

In the end, folks end up looking at the SPL level quoted. Fact is, that the SPL level has very little to do with how easy the speaker is to drive. You can have an 82dB speaker that (for arguments sake) has a pure resistive load which makes it easy to drive for even a 3W SET amp (though it may not be able to produce very loud volume overall) and you could have a 88dB speaker with very complex impedances (also due to crossover design) that dip very low in impedance values that even a 100W amp finds it hard to drive. This is all complicated by the fact that the amp design also plays a role.

Harbeths are easy to drive speakers, as are Proacs even though they have low sensitivities (84dB or whatever). Its not a hard load for the amp (remember that amp knows nothing about how loud its playing, it just sees how much current it needs to put into the load and how difficult it is to do this)

The Usher MD-1s (around 87dB) are also relatively easy to drive - relative to the Be-718 but I suspect not as easy as as a fixed resistive load speaker which is say 83 - 84 dB.
For one pure resistive load - look at the coincident technology speakers - they present a flat load of 8 or 10 ohms purely resistive. This is a dream speaker for a 3w SET, which is why they are able to demonstrate at ear bleeding levels with their SET amp.
The industry term of efficiency was prevalent in the past, but for obvious marketing reasons it has changed to sensitivity.

by the way, heres another interesting question, if you have two amps (identical in all ways) rated at

100W x 8 ohms
140W x 4 ohms

and

75W x 8 ohms
150W x 4 ohms

which one would you pick and why?


cheers

 

[ranjeetrain]

Sridhar, a point well made. Most people confuse the sensitivity with "ease of drive". It's about impedance not the sensitivity. Sensitivity only tells how much power a speaker will need to produce what SPL. Whereas it's actually the impedance that makes amps sweat (or breeze) as the case may be.

For the question you asked, nice way to explain. Hopefully everyone will go for the second one. At the very least the second amp is more stable at difficult loads. First amp may be a better choice for speakers that stay 8Ohm +-1Ohm.