Vinyl vs Digital?

[chander]

Found this while researching to add an LP player in the stereo chain in my office. Not sure if this has been discussed before, but if this is true, Vinyl doesn't really offer an advantage over hi-res streaming (NOT MQA).

What do you think?

I suggest to watch the whole thing, however if you want to skip thru - please watch post 6:50.

 

[kapmish]

This debate will never conclude (just like all other debates in world of Audio ). In my experience, vinyl v/s digital is not about quality or measuring the wave forms. On paper, measurements may show that differences due to A-D-A conversion are minor to be detectable by human hearing. Rather, it is about 'nature' and ' feel' of the sound. This different feel in vinyl sound (more rounded, less edgy in my experience) works well for some type of music and taste. So, if one can feel a different type of sounds coming from vinyl, one will fall in love. Regards

 

[Bloom@83]

This debate has happened not once but many times on the forum. For many it is not a debate at all, rather a simple fact of life.
Vinyl is imperfect , and on paper it’s specifications are much worse than digital (CDs , SACDs ). And yet vinyl sound is lush, warm and very very addictive. Every single audiophile having a digital + vinyl setup will testify to that.
Many audiophiles have even completely sold off their digital gear and settled for an analog chain.

Why , you ask ? Because even with a superior format , poor mastering and poorer equalisation have robbed the advantages CDs and high res files have had, whereas mastering on vinyls , specially the older analog ones , are way superior. You won’t find YT people talking much about that. There are exceptions, yes , with certain labels and music genre , but that just proves the above scenario.

Just do a side by side comparison between a Norah Jones LP and your typical Spotify \ Tidal \ Qobuz playlist , or a vintage RD Burman soundtrack or a Ravi Shankar or Dire Straits live recording (with of course equivalently priced TT and phono setup) and hear the differences yourself.

The resurgence of vinyl culture today across the world , despite records being priced 10-20 times higher than CDs and streaming rates , despite availability of free high resolution files , despite additional headache of record maintenance, despite substantial cost of turntable, phono , accessories, stylus , cartridge - must mean something, no ?

 

[arj]

Assuming you have good Analogue and good Digital Setup and both are equivalent
1. If your LP recording is better the Vinyl will be superior (most cases for Older music)
2. If your digital recording is better the Digital will be better ( mostly for newer music)
3. if you know for a fact that both recording are exactly the same then the one where there is a better synergy of components will be better but that breaks the initial assumption.
4. You like and enjoy both, please continue to enjoy both and dont debate

Ill take the 4th.

Thats about the end of most debates that have happened and what people have agreed to agree/Disagree. if there is anything New which has come in this area am sure everyone would be interested to hear about this

 

[Lizard King]

The most significant difference between vinyl and digital cannot be measured. Those who can perceive the difference, they spend oodles on those shiny black disks. Others spend their futile time in studying waveforms.

 

[arj]

The most significant difference between vinyl and digital cannot be measured. Those who can perceive the difference, they spend oodles on those shiny black disks. Others spend their futile time in studying waveforms.

True..the interesting part of measuring music is that while measurements are there, we are most probably measuring the wrong things !

I think the below is attributed to Daniel von Recklinghausen, the chief designer of HH Scott

if it measures good, and sounds bad, it is bad. If it sounds good, and measures bad, you've measured the wrong thing - Old Audiophile saying

 

[fLUX]

I have recently got into Vinyls & started to prefer Vinyls overall than the digital media because of the following reasons
i) I am yet to hear old bollywood numbers in such glory on digital media as they sound on Vinyls. I am in love with how the vocals sound, the soundstage also seems better for older numbers than the digital alternatives (mind you I have FLACs for majority of the recordings and also tried Tidal)
ii) For newer numbers like Barfi , my digital media gives more details but the Vinyl seems to have a better connect. This might be placebo but I think its more to do with the absence of any D-A conversion process and hence I am pretty much listening to the original mastering without any major alterations. Phir Le Aya Dil & Sawali Si Raat never sounded more sublime to me.

Only thing I repent is jumping a year too late , could have saved some fair amount of dough otherwise.

 

[Bloom@83]

For post nineties Bollywood it is not worth buying vinyls because they were recorded in digital in the first place.

 

[chander]

Thanks @arj, @Bloom@83 - I have got a decent bunch of LPs and I am in the market to buy a record player. Just wanted to know if it doesn't make sense anymore with digital media becoming better than earlier.

Thanks again for helping out!

 

[fLUX]

For post nineties Bollywood it is not worth buying vinyls because they were recorded in digital in the first place.

Despite the fact, I somehow found Barfi to be way better sounding than it sounds via Tidal/Offline FLAC.

 

[Bloom@83]

Goes on to show that measurements don’t tell everything when it comes to vinyl vs hires digital.

 

[jls001]

Despite the fact, I somehow found Barfi to be way better sounding than it sounds via Tidal/Offline FLAC.

Barfi vinyl sounds way, way superior to the CD. The CD actually sounds crap.

 

[reubensm]

oh, the same old debate all over again

In my view its very simple:

If one is to set out on a journey from say, a basic cell phone with a music player and a portable record player and go all the way up to the best digital sources vs the best turntable/cart and rest of chain (top of the line), one will notice that from the start of the journey, Digital beats Vinyl hands down, actually it completely demolishes the vinyl format. There is no comparison with the sound, digital is way way better at the start and going through the initial-to-mid stages of the journey.

As one sets off on the journey with the equipment getting more expensive, the gap keeps narrowing as the money spent on the chain, records, etc increases. Most of us are players in the low and mid card segments and try to make our gear sound like the top end segment (with varied success). The fact is that there is a lot of personalized commenting and opinions floating around, which cannot be really taken at face value. The user will have to personally listen to both formats and take a call on what works best

Let me give you an example - my brother in law who listens to his CDs on a Philips DVD player through a Pioneer AV Receiver and 7.1 setup visited and was curious about records. I played an old Mantovani pristine Phase-4 stereo record for him and after listening for 5 minutes, his comment was - "the sound is not 'pure'. I can hear slight distortion, and the sound does not have impact". The chain I was using included my Garrard 301 with SME tonearm, Shure Cart, Nad amplification So I guess one should adopt what works best and sounds good to the ear.

 

[Bloom@83]

Barfi vinyl sounds way, way superior to the CD. The CD actually sounds crap.

Which shows how horrible the mastering and equalisation is on these OST CDs.
In the ideal case Barfi, with a full digital recording , mixing , mastering should sound way better than on vinyl with its lower noise floor and higher dynamic range.
And yet , both of you experienced listeners say the vinyl pressing is better.

Which brings me again to the moot question for those who listen to mostly vintage Bollywood / pre eighties western music : why spend lakhs and lakhs on speakers , amplifiers , preamplifiers , cables , IAs but then use the poorest source media ?

 

[DB1989]

Interestingly, preference for vinyl does not necessarily extend to audiophiles. I have performed back to back listening tests of digital vs analog of the same track alongwith people who have no interest in hifi and they all seemed to prefer vinyl without exception and one person was so incredibly bowled over by the sound that he went ahead and got himself a TT, his first piece of hifi equipment in over 40 years of existence. For reference, This was after hearing a few jagjit singh tracks on a humble Rega Planar 1 and Marantz PM6006 combo connected through the latters inbuilt phono stage vs streaming of the same songs through spotify/apple music through a Marantz SR6013 connected to the same PM6006. Despite the pops and crackles (don’t crucify me fir not doing a good job cleaning the records ) and sound which to my ears was of lesser definition than digital, they found it to be “substantially” better. Go figure.

 

[Lizard King]

Interestingly, preference for vinyl does not necessarily extend to audiophiles.

My 17 year son being a case in the point.
He listens to his music mostly on Spotify. But he and his gang often hangs around my system because vinyl is cool.
Now his girlfriend has even gifted him a Black Sabbath vinyl.
My dad was happy to know and congratulated me for raising my kid well

 

[nikhilblr]

I don't have access to any hi resolution streaming services but I do have audio cds vinyls and cassette tapes. I can assure everyone that my vinyls and cassettes sound way better and warmer and less compressed than even original audio cds and definitely much better than Spotify/ YouTube. It's very strange because when I switched from cassette to CD in the eighties then at that point of time cds were much better sounding than cassettes to the extent I gave up on cassette tapes at that point of time, but right now the same casset sound better than the same cds which I had in the eighties and nineties, I am still using my old cds and cassettes. It's it's possible that previously I was using a CD player and now I play my cds through my computer. My CDs don't sound compressed but they are not as sharp as the vinyls and cassettes.

 

[Gerry_the_Merry]

And yet vinyl sound is lush, warm

Not at all...when this covid chaos is over, do drop in if you can, and I will disabuse you of this notion easily.

 

[DB1989]

oh, the same old debate all over again

In my view its very simple:

If one is to set out on a journey from say, a basic cell phone with a music player and a portable record player and go all the way up to the best digital sources vs the best turntable/cart and rest of chain (top of the line), one will notice that from the start of the journey, Digital beats Vinyl hands down, actually it completely demolishes the vinyl format. There is no comparison with the sound, digital is way way better at the start and going through the initial-to-mid stages of the journey.

As one sets off on the journey with the equipment getting more expensive, the gap keeps narrowing as the money spent on the chain, records, etc increases. Most of us are players in the low and mid card segments and try to make our gear sound like the top end segment (with varied success). The fact is that there is a lot of personalized commenting and opinions floating around, which cannot be really taken at face value. The user will have to personally listen to both formats and take a call on what works best

Let me give you an example - my brother in law who listens to his CDs on a Philips DVD player through a Pioneer AV Receiver and 7.1 setup visited and was curious about records. I played an old Mantovani pristine Phase-4 stereo record for him and after listening for 5 minutes, his comment was - "the sound is not 'pure'. I can hear slight distortion, and the sound does not have impact". The chain I was using included my Garrard 301 with SME tonearm, Shure Cart, Nad amplification So I guess one should adopt what works best and sounds good to the ear.

This may or may not apply to me. Till around 12 years of age, my only mode of music consumption was analog i.e. cassettes and the occasional vinyl records during my summer visits to my ancestral home. Can't remember the make of the TT but the collection of music that my maternal uncle had was incredible, it was just that i had poor taste. At home, my dad had an old Sonodyne Cassette Deck with separate modules for EQ and the Amp section which were paired with Sonodyne speakers (acquired by my dad sometime in 92-93).

Then came along the unfortunate day when the amp just died and right around the same time, i got my first PC and consequently was introduced to the world of MP3s. This was also the time when the music that i listened to underwent a paradigm shift and pirated MP3s were much more convenient to source than cassettes of the same tracks.

The poor sonodyne languished for years unused till I was visited by an "old boy" who was a pretty cool cat and had great taste in music. We visited an AV store, something i could not muster the courage to on my own being a broke kid in college, and we auditioned some B&W Speakers paired with a Rotel Amp and CD player. Dare I say it was a life changing experience and many packets of Maggi later, i saved enough to by my proper set of what i perceived to be a proper hifi system for my PC, the venerable Altec Lansing MX5021. Which also meant that digital continued to be my primary source of music consumption.

Imbued with the new sense of audiphilia, I also tried to get my Sonodyne amp repaired but every single time we got it back from repairs, it would blow out soon after and we eventually stopped trying.

Late last year, i finally reintroduced analog into my chain with the Rega Planar 1 and despite coming from a background which was predominantly listening to music through analog means, the sound of vinyl is yet to strike a chord with me (again?) unlike the other people who have auditioned my system and have mostly consumed music through a digital chain.

Don't get me wrong, I see the charm in vinyl which has a more rounded and fuller sound compared to digital of the same tracks which comparatively sound thinner but more detailed, yet i find myself preferring the latter for now. Only time will tell...

 

[reubensm]

true actually, it perhaps also has a lot to do with my listening tastes. Personally I use vinyl only for older albums in the non-rock genre and all my rock and metal listening is digital.