What exactly you get more from High end vs Entry level

[sudhirbhosale]

Hi all
In HiFi, there is lot of price variations between Entry level and High end models, mainly in Amplifiers, speakers and sources. So curious to know what extra one can get after spending 10x or 100x price. Some time 10x additional spend may boost SQ by 3x only, not proportional to cost. So I tried to contact helpdesk of some companies but did not get clear answers except below:
1. Cambridge audio replied that in costly models, high grade components are used. Then I asked since specs like TDH, etc are same, so what would be difference to the end listeners? No further reply on that
2. One DAC company clearly mentioned that due to high grade components, though specs are same, there would be difference in sonical experience.

Till date I found below answers. I mentioned below my findings wrt High cost vs benefits. Request FM to add in case there are more benefits by spending more.
1. High grade components = long life, reliability, lower variation in results, less noise
2. Solid Build quality i.e. less plastic, more metal, gold, sliver, brass, high grade switches, transformers, heavy stuff = improved trouble free life
3. More features & more connections options, like pre-out, MM+MC support for phono, two pair speakers output, variable loudness control, digital+optical in for audio
4. Where there are few technical options while designing etc. power supply transformer, always selected high quality design options. e.g. toroidal vs normal transformer
5. Some propitiatory stuff where company invested in huge R&D and now patented hence more cost
6 Separation / dedicated approach which may require 2x set of component. i.e. Cambridge audio higher DAC have two DAC chips separate to Left and right channel.
7. Purity approach i.e. pure gold, pure copper connectors, many pure stuff

Any more benefit for spending more?
Do always result into too high grade SQ same time?

Thanks

 

[tuff]

You did your research quite well. A+ .
The trouble with audio gear is it ends up in the 'diminishing returns' domain. Doubling the budget will not give you double the sound quality. Also some companies will price their gear based on brand value.

 

[dillihifi]

Agree with the OP but what happens is that when you spend $$$ then you would be biased towards the equipment you have bought. Further the cost goes into the components which are as sudhir put it becomes more reliable and less prone to failure. The law of diminishing returns applies in all the sectors but one thing is there that in a high end setup the sonics are different better or not is a subjective one as it is but a part of the chain. the source type of music and other factors play a part in the whole listening experiences.

The availability of more features and connections like two nos of speaker o/ps, phono MM/MC, are also there to give one more flexibility and allow one to use a component in various modes so that is lasts for a longer time. Further these components have a a better build quality. All said and done it boils down to the company and the brand positioning they seek for their products. Further a mid end stereo setup around a couple of lakhs will invariably sound better than a entry level setup of around 50k though it may not be VFM.

 

[kvandhi]

Very good topic. I will follow from our members view on this.

Personally i am not clear what is the actual meaning in terms of cost for entry level Audio products , For instance. let me give you entry level list of amps and prices
Norge - 10 K +
Marantz - 21 K
NAD - 35 K
Rotel - 48K
These famous brands are calling these products as an entry level

 

[rikhav]

Apart from looks, build , features (which won't affect sound in a big way), the biggest improvement with high end is more resolving sound, more close to source
Of course there are always few examples of giant killers which works better then something similar which is priced higher

Also don't forget factory direct is always cheaper as there is no middle men in between

But still general case is higher end is more resolving sound and more close to source

That's why even in higher end there are 100000 choices because even with resolving and close to source all won't like a particular flavor

 

[tuff]

@kvandhi The brands mentioned (apart from Norge) are all imports and can only be bought through authorized distribution system. Norge will sell you factory direct, has no import/ customs duty on it or dealership added cost. So when you buy a Yamaha, marantz and the likes, You are essentially adding the customs/ dealership costs to it. Manufactured products in China mostly end up cheaper than something made in Japan or Europe.
So the final pricing is never about the sound quality itself.

 

[Hari Iyer]

I agree witht the cost part with various types of materials used - below are some as per my experience

Resistor - metal oxide 1/4 watt - 1/- - metal film - 10/- , wire wound depending upon value 25/- to 150/-

Capacitor 10uF electrolytic - 15/-, Polyester - 50/-, Polyproplene - 300/- , PIO / Teflon - 500/- +

Op-amp - basic - 35/- - Audiophile grade - 450/-

Tubes - Chinese 300B usd110/- (pair) - Western Electric 300B -usd 3000/- (pair)


* All prices in INR unless otherwise stated.

 

[heliumflight]

I've experienced 2 things once you go to super hiend HiFi setup.

i) Resolution
ii) Depth

 

[powerslave]

Well actually the most fundamental fact which is not obvious at first is unlike a lot of other expensive pursuits like expensive watches , fast cars the hifi world is different in the sense that while anyone who has worn say a mid level seiko or citizen would appreciate the details inside a rolex and same with say moving from a honda civic to even bmw3 not everyone has the 'ears' to appreciate a jump from say entry level Marantz to say 3-5k USD gear because you actually need to love and appreciate music to even judge the two systems , that is why the urban logic in India is still on the lines of loud system is better in every sense be it money, status , music etc and the general opinion that 7.1>5.1>2.1 is in line with such perceptions. I personally cannot distinguish between a good audio gear and great audio gear , I can only discern between entry level and good one (say 2-3k USD system) beyond that I personally cannot discern any qualitative improvements those who can they are blessed.

 

[prem]

A lighter wallet

 

[Hari Iyer]

, that is why the urban logic in India is still on the lines of loud system is better .

Its been proved that when 2 identical setup is played everything same source, amp, speakers, room, interconnects etc. etc. - the one which is louder will always be judged as a better system in all respect even if its louder by a +1dB.

 

[drkrack]

I've experienced 2 things once you go to super hiend HiFi setup.

i) Resolution
ii) Depth

Also
3) Tonal Accuracy
4) Airy feel (instrumental separation)
5) 3 dimensional Sound : you can actually make out the layers in music. The music director usually tries to convey the emotions of the song (not only by the vocalist variations but ) by way of tonal interplay of instruments or nuances in background score etc, are glaringly evident, instead of being hidden. Psychoaccustics etc
6) Non fatiguing for extended periods of listening (Highs aren't harsh, bass isn't boomy etc)

 

[tuff]

Its been proved that when 2 identical setup is played everything same source, amp, speakers, room, interconnects etc. etc. - the one which is louder will always be judged as a better system in all respect even if its louder by a +1dB.

That is why they are called" loud speakers".

 

[COOLDUDE7808]

from a budget , if u move to mid ...then the difference is not much . When you move to high end stuff then you can clearly hear the difference
clean sound
Better Instrument separation
bigger soundstage
Difference between loud noise filling the room and music enveloping u
Even in high volumes ...distortion will either be absent or very very less

 

[newlash09]

Take someone who has never sat in a Mercedes for a drive in one. He will appreciate the comfort straight away.

Now try getting a non hobbyist to listen to our setups. He would think we are all crazy to spend so much for a difference he can't discern.

Audio quality is a acquired taste. Only after being keenly interested and listening to other setups do we realise what to aspire for.

So each to his own. But if I was starting again today, I wouldn't bother to listen to any better systems and live happily with my own crappy sound

Ignorance is certainly bliss in this hobby

 

[tuff]

I have sat in a Mercedes,BMW and some .I have not "felt' anything". The comfort level is no more felt than a Lexus half the price. But with good sounding music, I have danced, cried, felt spiritual, romantic and everything in between. Listening to good sound has a deeper feeling compared to a car.(at least for my brain). last night a friend came over and i played Neck and Neck (mark Knopfler& Chet Atkins). No words were exchanged till the album ended. In a car i would be worried if i get into an accident.LOL!!!

 

[hifitoaster]

Perception of Audio quality is a acquired taste. - True that. If your senses is not seasoned, you cannot appreciate the gradient improvements. The problem with such sense is once you heard slightly better you find it hard to tolerate that smaller degradations. For most seasoned audiophiles the improvement is more important than the money involved. Their logic is right for them. If on mid fi I can say this, I can understand the feeling of real hiend users.


For a person who lives with midfi for long, it needs time to digest the difference to a real hi end. Once done, on looking back the difference seems to be huge than what it seemed before climbing up there. There is no go back in audio.

 

[vinyl]

Hi all
In HiFi, there is lot of price variations between Entry level and High end models, mainly in Amplifiers, speakers and sources. So curious to know what extra one can get after spending 10x or 100x price. Some time 10x additional spend may boost SQ by 3x only, not proportional to cost. So I tried to contact helpdesk of some companies but did not get clear answers except below:
1. Cambridge audio replied that in costly models, high grade components are used. Then I asked since specs like TDH, etc are same, so what would be difference to the end listeners? No further reply on that
2. One DAC company clearly mentioned that due to high grade components, though specs are same, there would be difference in sonical experience.

Till date I found below answers. I mentioned below my findings wrt High cost vs benefits. Request FM to add in case there are more benefits by spending more.
1. High grade components = long life, reliability, lower variation in results, less noise
2. Solid Build quality i.e. less plastic, more metal, gold, sliver, brass, high grade switches, transformers, heavy stuff = improved trouble free life
3. More features & more connections options, like pre-out, MM+MC support for phono, two pair speakers output, variable loudness control, digital+optical in for audio
4. Where there are few technical options while designing etc. power supply transformer, always selected high quality design options. e.g. toroidal vs normal transformer
5. Some propitiatory stuff where company invested in huge R&D and now patented hence more cost
6 Separation / dedicated approach which may require 2x set of component. i.e. Cambridge audio higher DAC have two DAC chips separate to Left and right channel.
7. Purity approach i.e. pure gold, pure copper connectors, many pure stuff

Any more benefit for spending more?
Do always result into too high grade SQ same time?

Thanks

Fully agree with you. From a minimum price point to a certain price point there will be subtle changes/ improvements in SQ, which is easily audible, but the percentage of variation is very very small. Just for an example, a 20k system can sound better to one person if it's SQ suits that person and a 40k system may not appeal to that person. It can be the opposite for another person. But after a certain price point, it is meaningless, and can only be what you have mentioned.

 

[vinyl]

Well actually the most fundamental fact which is not obvious at first is unlike a lot of other expensive pursuits like expensive watches , fast cars the hifi world is different in the sense that while anyone who has worn say a mid level seiko or citizen would appreciate the details inside a rolex and same with say moving from a honda civic to even bmw3 not everyone has the 'ears' to appreciate a jump from say entry level Marantz to say 3-5k USD gear because you actually need to love and appreciate music to even judge the two systems , that is why the urban logic in India is still on the lines of loud system is better in every sense be it money, status , music etc and the general opinion that 7.1>5.1>2.1 is in line with such perceptions. I personally cannot distinguish between a good audio gear and great audio gear , I can only discern between entry level and good one (say 2-3k USD system) beyond that I personally cannot discern any qualitative improvements those who can they are blessed.

You are very much correct, there is a lot of marketing hypes.

 

[Kannan]

Among components like transformers, capacitors, resistors, instructors etc. some types are sonicaly superior and cost wise higher.
Theoretically, In amps the sound quality moves downwards from Class A, but building a Class A is very expensive .
So these class of amps are inherently on the expensive side

Another very important factor is perfect match of the left and right channels at all stages, which means the tolerance levels between matching components are very important and this is critically maintained in high end equipment, in effect there will be more discard of the components due to mismatch adding to the overall cost.
This is the biggest deciding factor in stereo audio