An evening with the Thiel CS 1.6 speakers

[Rajiv]

Hi,

I went over to Srinisundars home this evening to listen to his Thiel CS1.6 speakers. Svenkateshsmart joined us for the listening session.

Srinis set up is very neat and tastefully done. :clapping:

We started off by listening to the Chesky demo disc, and it was apparent instantly that the Vincent amps were not doing justice to the Thiels. The sound was bright and thin. The bass was not controlled and stand up bass was sounding muddled. The test track with the upright bass clearly showed up the amps lack of control.

The Jennifer Warnes song Way Down Deep has some really low bass notes and the Vincent amps began to audibly clip.

We then connected my Luxman M4000 power amp and the difference was instantly noticeable. Unfortunately, the old Luxman did not take kindly to being transported across town and the protection circuit started kicking in and one channel would cut off. So most of the listening was done with one channel only. Not ideal but even with only one channel the difference was very noticeable.

The bass was very controlled and the brightness vanished and there was more body to the music. The same tracks which were sounding muddy sounded more controlled and the amp handled the low notes of the song Way Down Deep without clipping.

When we were at Capt. Rajeshs home Srini mentioned that the Thiels were bright and sounding thin. It is apparent that the problem is with the Vincent amps and not the speakers. Even after three hours of listening with the Luxman amp. there was no fatigue.

The Thiel CS 1.6 are very good speakers but they need a good high current amp to drive them. It would be best to pair them with an amp that is not bright to bring out the best in them.

Regards
Rajiv

 

[BLASTO]

Hey srini,
As I told, get the musical fidelity A5 amp. Check M1 DAC also.
As I mentioned earlier, Musichall too sounded bright. M1 removed much of brightness and A5 took the midrange to a different level.

Get a home demo of M1. Easy..

 

[avidyarthy]

OR ...... better still, get a Krell ... 300i or 400xi ...... you can afford one

 

[BLASTO]

OR ...... better still, get a Krell ... 300i or 400xi ...... you can afford one

Ya.. He can afford yours..

 

[anm]

thanks for the review Rajiv.
Blasto, any deal on A5 as well

 

[svenkateshsmart]

Hi,

Yeah, it was indeed a terrific evening. I met Mr. Rajiv today for the first time who is, as I am told, the finest gentleman, with an unique and good artistic taste towards music.

We started off with listening to some audiophile recordings and went on to listen, Jennifer Warnes, Ray Charles:
a) Musical Hall CDP -> Musical Fidelity Pre -> Vincent Monos -> Nordost Interconnects -> Emotiva Spkr Cables -> Thiel 1.6

It was all okay for me initially except for the over-brightness (Nordost??), Srini sir prefers it that way.

However, when playing Jennifer Warnes' Way Down Deep, evidently Vincents lost control over Thiel and reproduced an audible clip and went on to reveal its control over the Thiels.

b) Music Hall CDP -> Finolex Wires:clapping::clapping: -> Luxman -> Thiels:clapping:

We then decided to change the chain and replace the Vincent Monos with Luxman M4000 power amp. Unfortunately, the right channel was not reproducing anything, possibly due to some circuit protection system (should I say) failure? However, we went on to listen to same songs out of the Luxman-Thiel combo.

As described by Mr. Rajiv, Luxman, which is a beast, with enough power had excellent control over the Thiels and produced a clean-sounding bass and reproducing highs sans brightness. Believe me when I say, it was very hard for us to accept that we were missing a channel, due to the overwhelming sound-stage produced by the combo.

We played Way Deep Down again and this time, the combo effortlessly reproduced bass as low as you could feel it and when playing other tracks, the brightness was very evident and sax notes were thin on Vincents and the altissimo notes were overly sharp, which is the opposite on Luxman.

Truly, Luxman is a beast and Thiel is a monster and the combo was "Wild Wild West."

Thank you Srinisundar for creating this opportunity and Rajiv for his time and advise.

Cheers!

OR ...... better still, get a Krell ... 300i or 400xi ...... you can afford one

Is not Krell a bright-sounding amp? If so, it would not go well with Thiels.

 

[avidyarthy]

Neutral ..... tending towards dry .... but not bright @ 400xi

 

[svenkateshsmart]

Neutral ..... tending towards dry .... but not bright @ 400xi

Avidyarthy, thanks for that. Never had a chance to listen to a Krell as I can remember, but long ago when everything sounded same and looked junk to me.

I have been told many a times that Krells sound bright, I stand corrected for now.

 

[srinisundar]

Hey srini,
As I told, get the musical fidelity A5 amp. Check M1 DAC also.
As I mentioned earlier, Musichall too sounded bright. M1 removed much of brightness and A5 took the midrange to a different level.

Get a home demo of M1. Easy..

Thanks Mr.Rajiv for making an visit today evening to my house and thanks for your comments and advice on my stereo setup. As my reference sounding music is what i heard in your house. As stated earlier adding Lyrita DHT pre transformed your system to an ultimate level of enjoyment.

Yes, as you told initial level of enjoyment in Vincent amps is more and later in continuous hearing it is as per your judgement.

What a Tank-amp Luxman has built( more than 45 to 50Kgs), we could not believe it is an 30+ years old amp and it was looking awesome... More than awesome look it sounded fantastic and transformed my Thiel to an different level. The imaging and sounding is so huge with one channel and we could not imagine how it will sound with 2 channel. Love to hear when it is done. If you ever part it- keep me in No.1 spot. As per your advice i will look out for some hi-power amps.

Once again thanks for your visit with the tank with full of music and energy inside you to help me out. :clapping:

Hey srini,
As I told, get the musical fidelity A5 amp. Check M1 DAC also.
As I mentioned earlier, Musichall too sounded bright. M1 removed much of brightness and A5 took the midrange to a different level.

Get a home demo of M1. Easy..

May not be going with A5.5 amp as per Rajiv advice( no harm in trying A5 once) and inclined for old warm/tubo sound amps like MF A3 or 3.2 or old Nuvista. Absolutely no idea of going with M1 DAC.

Ok, regarding music hall it is not at all bright when connected with Luxman amp and and it is sounding so nice with Nordost interconnects too.

OR ...... better still, get a Krell ... 300i or 400xi ...... you can afford one

I can afford for sure, would like to see an demo if possible to match for thiel. Blasto has done a nice research and waited patiently finally landed on his "Sweet Spot". Hope i will be soon.

 

[svenkateshsmart]

Image of Luxman Power Amp

 

[Divakar7]

Nice review and lovely listening session from the sound of it. Can't wait to connect my Thiel 1.6 to the MF A1008. At 414 watts per channel in 4 ohms I believe I have adequate power to drive these babies! I was already bowled over during the audition session at AP and I think after they are broken in, the Thiel will only get better.

BTW someone said earlier they heard bass to 16hz, I am not sure that is possible. The Thiel 1.6 rolls off at 48hz, so anything below isn't reproduced. But I am open to be educated..

 

[Rajiv]

Hi,

We played Way Deep Down again and this time, the combo effortlessly reproduced bass as low as 16hz(?)

I mentioned to Srini and Venkat that HiFi News magazine had conducted tests a few years back on some bass demo tracks to see the low frequency energy in these tracks and the track Way Down Deep was found to have energy down to 16 Hz.

I guess that this is what Svenkateshmart was trying to convey. He has followed up his observation with a ?.

BTW someone said earlier they heard bass to 16hz, I am not sure that is possible. The Thiel 1.6 rolls off at 48hz, so anything below isn't reproduced. But I am open to be educated..

Yes, according to the specs. the Thiel CS 1.6 starts to roll off at 48Hz.This does not mean that all information below 48Hz will not be reproduced. Information below 48Hz will be at a lower level and is dependent on the room and placement factors.

Regards
Rajiv

 

[captrajesh]

My bad, couldn't make it; missed the action due to official commitments.:sad:

@Srini, what better advice can you get than a practical demonstration by someone as knowledgeable as Rajiv?

I hope you've got some clarity on what type of amp to go in for if not which.

 

[sidvee]

Hey srini,
As I told, get the musical fidelity A5 amp. Check M1 DAC also.
As I mentioned earlier, Musichall too sounded bright. M1 removed much of brightness and A5 took the midrange to a different level.

Get a home demo of M1. Easy..

Not sure if the discussion is referring to integrated amps. or power amps, but IMO Odyssey power amps. will mate superbly with the Thiels. Tube like warmth and stability into low impedence loads are the hallmarks of these amps. Relatively affordable as well.
Cheers,
Sid

 

[arj]

BTW someone said earlier they heard bass to 16hz, I am not sure that is possible. The Thiel 1.6 rolls off at 48hz, so anything below isn't reproduced. But I am open to be educated..

almost every frequency has Harmonics and subharmonics along with the fundamental. and that is what makes up Timbre of a sound.

hence 16Hz will have a 32 Hz and a 48 Hz harmonic which are of much less amplitude here. You may very well hear the 32Hz (which may be at 10 db) if the amp is powerful enough to drive the speaker..although the 48 can be very very subtle

 

[arj]

The imaging and sounding is so huge with one channel and we could not imagine how it will sound with 2 channel. Love to hear when it is done. If you ever part it- keep me in No.1 spot. As per your advice i will look out for some hi-power amps.

Once again thanks for your visit with the tank with full of music and energy inside you to help me out. :clapping:

There are many amps whch run Thiels well..problem is getting the right fit. in the end it needs to have High Current capacity (even if the power is low) .so do not just get into the higher Power mode.

Some of the Brands which come to name, other than Odyssey are Ayre, Mcormack, Older Krells, maybe a plinius as well.
If you do get an option i would rate the Ayre or a Gamut as great choices.

regarding the Luxman..i would be very suprised if Rajuv has even though that selling it is an option it is oneof the Audio Jewels..almost priceless !!

 

[santhosh]

You folks at Chennai are having a mini-meet almost everyday!!:thumbsup:

The previous owner (reseller) of these Thiels (in Singapore) was using a Pathos Logos Amp and the source was a Clearaudio Champion Magnum. The 1.6s sounded very good with a very natural midrange, highs had good bite and were very airy. The speakers did not go very low in his setup though the bass was fast and articulate.

Here are some pics:

 

[sidvee]

You folks at Chennai are having a mini-meet almost everyday!!:thumbsup:

The previous owner (reseller) of these Thiels (in Singapore) was using a Pathos Logos Amp and the source was a Clearaudio Champion Magnum. The 1.6s sounded very good with a very natural midrange, highs had good bite and were very airy. The speakers did not go very low in his setup though the bass was fast and articulate.

Here are some pics:

I spy some Lamm equipment in the rack - probably a ll2 or ll2.1 preamp and a phono.
Cheers,
Sid

 

[Divakar7]

That set-up (pictured) is far from ideal for the Thiels. They need to be at least 5 feet from side walls and at least 3 feet from walls/solid object in the back for them to image accurately. Can understand if it is a shop selling audio equipment..

 

[santhosh]

I spy some Lamm equipment in the rack - probably a ll2 or ll2.1 preamp and a phono.
Cheers,
Sid

Yes Sid, he had a lot of good gear for sale... Naim CDP with a Hi-Cap and a Krell as well.

That set-up (pictured) is far from ideal for the Thiels. They need to be at least 5 feet from side walls and at least 3 feet from walls/solid object in the back for them to image accurately. Can understand if it is a shop selling audio equipment..

In Singapore, Real Estate is super-expensive but still audiophiles try and have a seperate dedicated listening area about 12x14ft. Also, almost every audiophile I have met will have a whole lot of gear in the same room - usually available for purchase at the right price . So, ideal placement is very difficult.