Are high end DACs worth it?

[greenhorn]

Not to start a flame war but
Anything Above $2 Buys More Features, Not Better Quality - What Does It Take To Turn The PC Into A Hi-Fi Audio Platform?
Toms hardware is a reputed site, though not an audiophile one, and I'm still having trouble recognising a realtek codec could sound good.

 

[psyph3r]

So this is where you disappeared to after buying all the broken mice from te and erodov.
I was wondering where I've seen that username before

 

[magma]

greenhorn

the thing is - in the world stuff is sold at a price that the manufacturer/marketeer he believes he/they can sell it
its not always directly proportional to the gains or benefits of the product

marketting and promotional costs of each company is diffiernt

hence all questions like yours are a difficult solve

PS are you really seriously in the market for a high end dac ?
PM me - there is a small chance i may be of help

 

[greenhorn]

my main DAC these days is a logitech bluetooth adapter (though i have more expensive ones). Convenience > clarity.

I was just surprised that a realtek DAC was rated by THG as good enough - even I agree most PC codecs are good, but realteks are crappy

 

[regeHA]

Convenience > clarity.

Ain't that true for all of us.

I was just surprised that a realtek DAC was rated by THG as good enough - even I agree most PC codecs are good, but realteks are crappy

Back when I was in college that was indeed true, the on-board sound really sucked and we needed a Creative soundcard to even get decent sound, but most modern PCs with Realtek chip on-board have pretty decent SQ. Even the HTPCs that I use currently use the on-board sound card (via Toslink or HDMI) to the AVR, though the gaming and madVR HTPCs use an Nvidia GPU for the same.

That said I've also heard analog output from the Realtek to computer speakers and it sounded foot tappingly good. Pretty certain that it will walk all over the Logitech especially for Bluetooth.

 

[greenhorn]

I have a 2010 dell inspiron 15R with an IDT codec. My sister has a 2013 inspiron 15R with a realtek codec. That realtek is far better than the first ac97 realtek codec on my first pc i bought in 2003, and slightly betterthan the hd audio one from my second one from 2008. I can still tell the difference between my sisters laptop and mine

 

[superczar]

IMO, in a practical scenario, the biggest difference in SQ in a digital audio setup comes from the Drivers > Amplification>> DAC>>>> Cables

My subjective view:

Drivers: Cheap speakers with weak magnets , shoddy cones and bad casing will always yield poor sound - The SQ difference improvement continues to be quite linear from 2000/- boomboxes to 15K entry level bookshelves to 75-100K towers/bookshelves - Beyond that you hit the diminishing returns curve

Amplifier While I am far from an expert, I have extensively tested the SQ difference in a stereo setup between a mid-high end integrated Amp (Marantz PM17SA), a mid end AVR (Marantz SR6010), a low end AVR (Denon 1611) a cheap class D DIY Amp (TPA3116) and a class AB cheap stereo Amp in a box (the kind you get at the local electrical shops)
With the exception of the last one (which was horrible), all of the others were admirable performers
And while there was definitely a delta between them, for someone working on a fixed budget, a much better improvement can be found by spending the extra money on better speakers

DAC Tested specifically this weekend on a KEF Q300 paired with the Marantz PM 17 (a mid-end setup)
Compared the SQ of an old (but acclaimed) DAC viz M-Audio , Chromecast Audio (known to use a decent DAC), Airport Express (known to use a good DAC), the 3.5mm out from a Raspberry Pi and the 3.5mm out from a 150/- USB sound card
The source in all cases was 320kbps MP3s

The story was similar to what I saw with amps, with the exception of the 3.5mm out from the RPi (which was very bad), all other DACs performed at nearly the same level - I personally found the chromecast audio to be the best of the lot - But the SQ diff between all the rest was too small to be bothered with

Cables I will leave this one aside - I truly believe that as long as you don't do silly things (like frayed /poorly shielded cables at the line-in stage or the 3Rs /meter red/black wires for your speakers, you won't hear a difference

Moral of the long rant: If you are out to get the best sound from your money on a stereo setup (and as long as your budget is south of say 75K for just stereo), please allocate most of the money to the speakers
If it is between 75K-150K, start looking at Amp upgrades
If it is between 150K-250K, then only should you start looking at DAC upgrades

 

[music4mhell]

Wow, he compared to Benchmark dac 2
No comments.......................................................!!!!!

 

[tubek]

yes investment in a high end dac is really good in today's situation where many high resolution good recordings are available over internet . also it will be good substitute for cd player also . but choosing it you should take demo .

 

[Nikhil]

This is a question that comes up often.

One should consider a "high end DAC" or high quality DAC only after you have settled on your setup - amplification, cables and speakers. Once you have identified and optimized your gear, it then makes sense to look for a high quality source which is really what a DAC is in digital audio. The DAC is the only point in the chain where information is retrieved from the digital stream. Once converted to analog there is no other place in the chain where anything can be added to it.

However if the question is about high end DACs in terms of price - then you really need to match a DAC that is suitable to rest of your system. It makes no sense to place a Rs 5-10 lakh DAC in a low end system. This is similar to placing high end racing electronics on a mid price hatchback car. Sure it does something but the car doesn't have the design (steering system, brake system, electronics, etc) to fully exploit the feedback you get from the kit.

The other question is when one owns gear that "sounds better than a xxx lakh setup". In audio, this can happen in the case of DIY where through the generosity of the DIY community one can gain access to high quality circuits and parts to build very good gear. The Pass B1 is one such example. In such cases you really can get excellent results but this depends a lot on the execution of the build - building a good DAC is not trivial.

I hope this places some context on the OP post.

Regards.

 

[Santy]

Toms hardware is a reputed site, though not an audiophile one, and I'm still having trouble recognising a realtek codec could sound good.

Thanks for the link. Enjoyed reading it.

 

[square_wave]

A recent story if it helps :
I recently picked up an Auralic aries mini to replace the pc I run as a streamer. The mini incidentally has analogue outputs and a latest sabre dac chip inside ( 9018 ). Just out of curiosity I ran the music system from the analogue outputs of the mini for couple of days. I had some time while I figured out how to make my Mytek 192 dsd dac work with the mini with a firmware update and all that.
Please remember that the Mytek uses an older sabre chip (9016) than the latest 9018 in Aries.
The difference was not funny. The Minis analogue sound flat and uninvolving. The Mytek 192 dsd with the older version of the chip was far ahead of the game.
Note that the new Mytek Brooklyn use the 9018 and is better than the model I have.
The implementation is everything. The chip is just the beginning. So, get the dac with the best implementation that you can afford for your system.

 

[corElement]

The answer lies in auditioning different parts and finding the right balance that suites you, sonically, financially, and practically.

 

[quad_core]

I dont understand that article. I was using onboard RealTek sound chip which came with my motherboard, ASUS H87 PRO. Then I upgraded to Creative Sound Blaster Z soundcard. At that time I had crappy Creative SBS 300 or something(2.1, bought for Rs 1.2k)speakers . I could notice the improvement in sound quality on these crappy speakers also.
Now, I have upgraded to slightly better stereo speakers, the Creative T20 ll.
Bottomline is(IMO), there is significant improvement in sound when one upgrades from onboard realteks to a dedicated Sound card like SoundBlaster Z or Asus Xonar STX.

 

[Gerry_the_Merry]

It would be extremely unwise to spend big money on DACs. In the last 18 months, DAC prices have fallen for established names precipitously and are still falling. It should be the last purchase you should make, perhaps after 3-4 years when the best features from today's high end DACs have trickled down to more affordable models. Till then, you can work on your digital source. Even here, the money spent on expensive servers is likely to run into obsolescence. If your source is a PC then you can make endless improvements to it, and keep going for a few years till you max it out, and then look downstream in your digital set up.