Are you a flat listener?

[hydrovac]

I prefer to listen to music "flat"; For me, I try to get the "best" sound. For some reason it rankles my soul if I have to start messing with tone controls. My preamps doesn't even have tone controls, only input selectors and a volume knob. I always feel like something gets muddied as one range goes higher or lower. I've listened to enough variety of music and recordings on my system at this point that I know something is sub-par in the recording when things don't "sound right". The system seems to hold together well from "everyone else is asleep" levels to "Please can you turn that up a little bit??!?!".

I try to acheive flat response at the listening position which can be far from flat at the EQ. If you think turning off tone controls equates to flat in reality, you have a very good room or you'd be surprised how far off it probably is.

With all the combinations of equipment.. What, exactly, is flat? Without tone control modification or equalization? What makes you think that's flat?

 

[rohitmusic]

"Two less lonely people in the world...."

You are not alone sir (pun intended)

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

What, exactly, is flat? Without tone control modification or equalization? What makes you think that's flat?

On reaching that point in your post, I was musing about...

--- flat when it leaves the speakers?

--- flat when it arrives at your ears?

--- flat when it arrives at your brain?

And, even when we take all that into consideration, "flat" is still somewhat subjective. We may be able to average out between obviously warm and obviously cool, but the bottom line is that we do not have the original piece of music as reference.

So how do people judge flat? By averaging and experience? By comparison to a known combination of equipment?

To address the personal content of your opening question: am I a "flat" listener? I like to think that I am. Why? Because that's high fidelity, right? But some days a bit of added warmth goes down nicely, and others, sparkling clarity of some added highs serves the purpose. Anyway, it is the bit between ear drum and brain that I have the most problem with, so all I can do is adjust for comfort, whatever my ideals might be.

 

[asliarun]

On reaching that point in your post, I was musing about...

--- flat when it leaves the speakers?

--- flat when it arrives at your ears?

--- flat when it arrives at your brain?

And, even when we take all that into consideration, "flat" is still somewhat subjective. We may be able to average out between obviously warm and obviously cool, but the bottom line is that we do not have the original piece of music as reference.

So how do people judge flat? By averaging and experience? By comparison to a known combination of equipment?

To address the personal content of your opening question: am I a "flat" listener? I like to think that I am. Why? Because that's high fidelity, right? But some days a bit of added warmth goes down nicely, and others, sparkling clarity of some added highs serves the purpose. Anyway, it is the bit between ear drum and brain that I have the most problem with, so all I can do is adjust for comfort, whatever my ideals might be.

Perhaps "flat" means similar to a live performance, preferably unamplified (i.e. acoustic - no mikes or artificially amplified instruments), and perhaps when such a performance is conducted in an open air setting (no enclosing walls)?

Something like these open sessions, perhaps?

Sorry, OP might not have meant this - just a thought. Like you, I too started thinking about this.

 

[sdurani]

There's measured flat and perceptually flat. Both require removing peaks & dips from the frequency response so that you can hear all the details that would normally be masked by loud peaks and/or buried in quiet dips.

Since our human hearing isn't equally sensitive at all frequencies, a measured flat response tends to sound thin and bright (a bit too much high frequencies, missing some bass). Adding a bass boost typically helps restore the balance and make our human hearing think we are listening to a flat response (we perceive it as flat).

Harman did some blind testing a few years ago on room correction products, to see how they scored with listener preference. Turned out that there were basically 2 factors that led to highest preference: the smoother the response (fewest peaks & dips), the more it was preferred; and the closer to perceptually flat (downward tilt from bass to treble), the more it was preferred.

The Harman room correction comparison can be found here:
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B97...ZDcyLWEzZTAtMGJiODQ1ZTUxMGQ4/edit?hl=en&pli=1

Compare slide number 24 (measured response) to slide number 25 (perceived response - how the listeners heard it). Flat in-room response was not preferrred.

 

[ranjeetrain]

Technically speaking, achieving FLAT is not hard. Any good designer (at least holds true for amplifiers) can produce an equipment that's a ruler flat response.

Things get tricky when speakers come into play. Yet, some designers have managed to get to ruler flat response from their creations. Y G Acoustics is one such manufacturer that I can recall immediately that guarantees you a flat measured response. Their speakers are all about flat FR.

Things get even more tricky when the whole system comes into play. Whole system, i.e. the room, the electronics, cables, the speakers. No designer can accommodate for a room response in his design. Each speaker would have to have thousands of variants if they started doing that. Every solder joint potentially disturbs the currently flow. Every connecting cable potentially degrades the sound. The end voicing of a system depends on too many factors. Yet, technically it is possible, taking into account sum of the whole till this point in time, to produce flat FR. That's what most room correction DSPs and other equalization mechanisms built-into most AVRs strive to do.

And lets not even talk about the hearing accuracy of a listener. Human ear, like any other organ of the body, degrades with time. Perception of all frequencies doesn't remain the same as a person ages. Even if a room correction DSP manages to achieve a ruler flat or near flat in-room response, it is no guarantee the listener will still hear it flat, accounting to degradation in the person's own hearing ability.

It is to no surprise to me that most people would prefer a "non-flat" FR. Why? Two possible reasons! One, a technically flat sounding component doesn't necessarily produce flat in-room response. Two, most people like mild coloration.

 

[hydrovac]

What exactly does "flat" mean in terms of EQ? What is it precisely and how to achieve it? If you have a graphic EQ, it means you leave everything at 0dB. It's usually the natural tone of the amp. If every amp is different? How can you tell what "flat" is?
It's pretty much pointless to look at it just in terms of the amp. "Flat" through what speakers, in what room, at what location in the room? Since a preamp, a power section and a speaker all interact with one another (The speakers inherently boost and cut certain frequencies), so sending a flat signal from the amp does not result in an overall flat sound. Having any single part of the system scope out 'flat' (meaning very few peaks or valleys across the frequency range of the system... means almost nothing.

I find the actually frequency RANGE of a system impacts the tone much more than a bit of a hump or valley in the low mids or upper mids or whatever. An amp that extends too low, or is attenuated too much up top, or a speaker cab that isn't capable of really reproducing the key range of frequencies (regardless if it again emphasizes any of the frequencies within that range) can really result in a lack of tonal joy.

IMO. The only way to find out if an entire system is flat is to scope it in a controlled, neutral environment. Of course, once you get it to play in an uncontrolled environment, you are back where you started!

 

[Tanoj]

IMO "Flat" is just an other word for "untouched"

I too listen to music, and i feel the pass B1 ( Pre amp ) does not touch it or does any kind of equalization with the track ....

That is why i get to hear the source .... it immediately reflects the goodness / badness of the source

My AP Speakers too has a good quality to present the music, which the source is offering .... if the source is Bass Shy or Rolled off Mids ... it lets me know

I always wonder, people who audition the music systems, and review the speakers, do they carry a standard source / benchmark with them whenever they visit a showroom, cos if the source or any component in chain is not great then it will give wrong impression that the speakers are at fault...

Acoustic treatment and speaker placement play this huge role, i would have never believed after i used and implemented , the calculator which our FM Member Nikhil posted here...

This is a great forum, and step by step its bringing me closer to purity, which i was looking from years ....

Happy Listening :licklips:

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

And lets not even talk about the hearing accuracy of a listener.

Sadly, some of us have to. Not only does the frequency response of our ears reduce with time, but, somehow, specific frequencies can become painful. Those with better/younger hearing may know what I mean if they find they have to hold their hands over their ears when a vehicle with a siren passes by.

So, if a note from a flute or strong female voice makes me wince, even though it is at the "right" level, I have to try and locate it and turn down that frequency if I am to still enjoy. So much for flat. :sad:

 

[ranjeetrain]

Sadly, some of us have to. Not only does the frequency response of our ears reduce with time, but, somehow, specific frequencies can become painful. Those with better/younger hearing may know what I mean if they find they have to hold their hands over their ears when a vehicle with a siren passes by.

So, if a note from a flute or strong female voice makes me wince, even though it is at the "right" level, I have to try and locate it and turn down that frequency if I am to still enjoy. So much for flat. :sad:

Yes, "flat" is not everything. An absolutely flat sounding system is liked by very very few people. Most people like some coloration to some extent.

 

[Saket]

Yes, "flat" is not everything. An absolutely flat sounding system is liked by very very few people. Most people like some coloration to some extent.

Very right. Most people like coloured & flashy sound. Even an year earlier I liked thumping bass and shrilling highs. But now my preferences have changed. I like rich mids and natural highs & lows. The best part of listening to music 'flat' is that there is hardly any ear fatigue. And also, I find the music more melodious when played flat. My rule for equaliser setting is to add just as much of treble which is like natural sharpness. Same with bass.
To share an instance, I was showing my vinyl set up to my relatives who came home one evening. One of them was courageous enough to tell me that its sounding dull, despite such hype & hoopla and a big set up to show!
I pumped up the bass, treble & hit the loudness button to which he replied 'Now its singing'!

 

[theironhorse]

well.. i feed amp with my media player with no EQ and no tone control./.. just as it is coming from the source however the source will have its own colouration as well but kept it as minimal changes as possible...


+1 saket... flat gives the best soothing non ear fatiguing sound...

 

[ssf]

I am fiddling with my Equalizer as I am reading this thread. Right now am listening to Internet Radio Latin Music. As my amp is not too powerful, I have given 63hz a bit of a boost.

But if I am listening to my favorite vocal CD's or classical, then my EQ is off. So I guess I am not a flat listener all the time. Flat meaning all EQ and tone controls off.

 

[Staxxx]

I have measured some various systems with the TacT Room Correction as well as Ascendo's Room Correction several times.
I have never had a flat response in a room.
The room correction system allowed you to either automatically compensate for the troughs and peaks or manually adjust the curve.
Always, I have preferred a slight descent in the curve at the high frequencies and a fairly flat to lower low frequency response curve - this sounded the most pleasing to me, in the context of the rooms in which I listened to my system. So I believe I am not a "flat" listener although I like the sound to be neutral.
Therefore, I just wanted to make a small point that the response curve is not really associated with colouration (in my opinion), which has more to do with tonality, which is more a quality of the reproduction of the recorded sound by the speakers, amps and source. The best eqs and room correction takes huge care in maintaining the characteristics of a system while adjusting for suck outs, peaks and other anomalies.

 

[sarith]

As a school kid, I was fond of bass. Most People I knew were fond of pop music and I too liked MJ, BSB, AoB etc. I remember going to my friend's house to hear Fatboy Slim in his Aiwa subwoofer system (right here right now).

A.R.R did some nice bass tracks like thoda thoda from Indira, enmel vizhuntha from May Madham, naan paadum santham from Duet etc. One of my fav first english albums were Ultraphonix (magnasound), Enigma, RealMcoy etc.

Even today I enjoy these songs. Techno, Trance, electronic..all the Cretu kind of songs, Gregorian, Fluke etc. Maybe because I am getting older, I don't use equalizers anymore. I like 70's to 90's songs much these days. I still love bass, but using equalizers feel like colouring to my ear.

I like to hear a song as the maker intended. I don't know whether I'm hearing it as such already but I have a feeling that these songs can sound a lot better with better audio devices (like listening to a Sony earphones, then in Denon AH-D1100 and Technics RP-DH1200)

I was introduced to a black disc that to me looked like a black Laser disc (My first LP experience). I played Bach (German make), Rafi London live (England make) LP in a setup of Dual LP player, Dual amp, Dual cassette deck, Heco Speakers and Akai tuner.

I was awestruck by the scale of sound produced compared to CD or Cassette. I saw a mid dome for the first time in my life in the Heco. Compared to Dual tape deck, I liked Telefunken studio 1 more.

Except for Akai being Japanese, Everything else was made in West Germany, bought by my friend's father when he went there. I would like to own a reel to reel some day though the reel tape seems almost extinct.