square_wave
Well-Known Member
99% of upscaling dvd players upscale only thrugh hdmi. The ones who do through component-out are either hacked or illegal.
DVD player Or Blu Ray player
- Thread starter sgmane
- Start date
99% of upscaling dvd players upscale only thrugh hdmi. The ones who do through component-out are either hacked or illegal.
psychotropic
Well-Known Member
yup, the issue is definitely HDMI....if you hook it up with HDMI to another TV< you will see that more options will become available for you. Do check that out and let us know.
Even if we hack the dvd player to upscale thru components, the lcd's available In India are not designed to handle the HD resolution via components . Hence they will not accept HD signal via components. However mind you, the components have the bandwith to handle HD signal. However to promote HDMI the designing of the LCD's were done in such a way so that HD signals are only accepted via HDMI !!
First let me thank all you folks for the useful information and suggestions.
venkatcr:
Thanks for letting me know about this. I shall check with the service center.
eummagic:
Thanks. I did see blu-ray region free players on the internet and they are
above $600 or so. (cost of international shipping an additional $100+ )
I had taken the current dvd player to authorised philips service center. As you rightly mentioned even getting a blu-ray player and if there is not
enough media to play, then its of little use.
sureshthadani:
Thanks for the information. I shall visit pioneer on infantry road.
murali:
Yes, HT field are hidden mines. Well let me go step by step in getting
all the required details, before i start setting up my HT.
Right from cables, to LCD/Plasma, amp, players etc all needs to be analyzed
to an extent (i agree we cannot get in 100% details of each component).
Thanks murali.
maniac_2004:
PS3 a good choice. I have seen good reviews on PS3 and its on NTSC too. But do you say the PS3 is 24K here in india?
But again, my requirement is not for PS3. But just music and movies only.
Finally i have decided on pioneer DV600. Looking for decent player which will last atleast 10 yrs (under regular service).
May be down the line as one of the members had written about the cost of blu-ray coming down in few years from now, but still shall stick to pioneer for some time.
A catch here - sony players does not play scratched CD's/DVD's. Philips does
play. (Not checked on other players)
venkatcr:
Thanks for letting me know about this. I shall check with the service center.
eummagic:
Thanks. I did see blu-ray region free players on the internet and they are
above $600 or so. (cost of international shipping an additional $100+ )
I had taken the current dvd player to authorised philips service center. As you rightly mentioned even getting a blu-ray player and if there is not
enough media to play, then its of little use.
sureshthadani:
Thanks for the information. I shall visit pioneer on infantry road.
murali:
Yes, HT field are hidden mines. Well let me go step by step in getting
all the required details, before i start setting up my HT.
Right from cables, to LCD/Plasma, amp, players etc all needs to be analyzed
to an extent (i agree we cannot get in 100% details of each component).
Thanks murali.
maniac_2004:
PS3 a good choice. I have seen good reviews on PS3 and its on NTSC too. But do you say the PS3 is 24K here in india?
But again, my requirement is not for PS3. But just music and movies only.
Finally i have decided on pioneer DV600. Looking for decent player which will last atleast 10 yrs (under regular service).
May be down the line as one of the members had written about the cost of blu-ray coming down in few years from now, but still shall stick to pioneer for some time.
A catch here - sony players does not play scratched CD's/DVD's. Philips does
play. (Not checked on other players)
This is interesting as I have a similar kind of dilemma, except that I don't want to go for the lower end DVD players. I compared a Pioneer 600AV and a Cambridge Audio DV99 connected to my Full HD 46" TV and the difference was huge. I could see details in the picture which were not seen in the former player. The price of the CA was double of the Pioneer. I have been owning the CA DV99 for some time now, but am returning it due to minor issues with the controls.
The choice for a Universal Player (Audio - all formats and Video with 1080p upscaling) is now between a high end DVD player like an Oppo 981H (19K) and a Blu-ray player (Sony @ 30K). While I agree that Blu-ray, etc are the future, the present seems overwhlmingly DVDs including the shops and rental places in India. On the other side, Blu-ray players can also upscale SD DVD pretty much to 1080p and are future proof. But, not sure about their capability as an Audio source. Need some inputs here on Blu-ray Vs High End Universal DVD players as well as on specific brands. thanks
Seeing all these discussions, just out of curiosity, if you have a 46" or bigger plasma or LCD full HDTV, which I am sure costs 6 digits, I wonder how much you plan to spend for a DVD player. Does a Rs 10,000 DVD player justify a match with a Rs 150,000 HDTV???
I am not very much devoted to home theater (though I own one) like hifi but in a music system, we try to have the best possible "affordable" source (CD player or turntable) because everything downstream is limited to what the source produces. Period.
Good luck.
> murali
I am not very much devoted to home theater (though I own one) like hifi but in a music system, we try to have the best possible "affordable" source (CD player or turntable) because everything downstream is limited to what the source produces. Period.
Good luck.
> murali
The situation in HT is different from HiFi. The cost of a LCD/Plasma is high because of multiple reasons such as large investment in production facilities, and continuous investment is technical progress. Even large companies such as Pioneer cannot afford to have independent panel manufacturing units, and are working with their own competitors to save costs. This is in spite of the fact that panels are one major area where there can be qualitative difference to beat the competition. New models will be expensive, while older models will sell at reduced costs to deplete the stocks. This is one area where small players cannot just exist. Fortunately the volumes are very large, other wise you will still be looking at a 15 lakhs price for a LCD instead of 1.5 lakhs.
One the other hand, when you come to the source, the beauty of the HT system is that most of the technologies are standard and are available to all manufacturers. There is no subjectiveness or individual design necessities that are there in audio. Whether it is the DSP, the upscaling, or sound decoding, all these are designed and manufactured by third parties and are available to all manufacturers. Of course you can take a DSP chip and screw up your own motherboard to create a bad product. Leaving aside such idiots, most manufacturers can create products that are very close to each other in features and capabilities. And the best that has happened is that testing has also reached a scientific methoddology. For example, you can test a DVD capabilities on some simple factors such as Chroma, Cadence, Motion Adaption, Sync, etc.
Again the sheer volume of production has slowly brought the features of the erstwhile expensive DVD players to mainline players over the last few years. This has been proved by Oppo Digital that has boldly taken technology from Anchor Bay to bring the world's best video processing with features such as progressive cadence detection, precision de-interlacing and precision video scaling, frame rate conversion, and aspect ratio control to a unit that is priced at just 400 dollars.
Today you can get an excellent DVD Player for anywhere from 100 dollars to 500 odd dollars. Prices over that are just brand imaging and the price you pay for that. If a product costing $399 gets 100/100 in all tests, what can a product costing say 2000 dollars do that can be better than 100/100?
Cheers
Sorry, beg to differ. How many high-end manufacturers have entered the business of DVD player? Very few. A lot of factors affect the price and performance of a player like material (sheetmetal/plastic), power supply (switching or linear), master clock (Japanese players don't have for HDMI) etc etc. So when high-end manufacturers like Theta, Ayre, Meridian, Arcam etc ventured into DVD players, they did not compromise on quality of parts and hence their products cost several times the budget Japanese players and hence cannot compete. Why on earth does Pioneer have an Elite division (like Toyota has Lexus)? To make better players. Are there not differences in the various models of Denon players?
The point is people are prepared to spend lakhs on TVs but seem satisfied with budget DVD players and A/V receivers. Let us not forget that home theater business shot into prominence not only due to higher resolution visual media but the audio part too. So a great picture with mediocre sound, does it still justify? And don't tell me that apart from DVD video watching, these LCDs and plasmas justify cable or satellite or direct-to-home broadcasts. A decent CRT TV is more than enough here unless one is really prepared to invest in a matching sound system.
The only other reason I can think of is the plasmas and LCDs becoming a status symbol and prestige in the living room.
Just my opinions. Thanks for the discussions.
> murali
The point is people are prepared to spend lakhs on TVs but seem satisfied with budget DVD players and A/V receivers. Let us not forget that home theater business shot into prominence not only due to higher resolution visual media but the audio part too. So a great picture with mediocre sound, does it still justify? And don't tell me that apart from DVD video watching, these LCDs and plasmas justify cable or satellite or direct-to-home broadcasts. A decent CRT TV is more than enough here unless one is really prepared to invest in a matching sound system.
The only other reason I can think of is the plasmas and LCDs becoming a status symbol and prestige in the living room.
Just my opinions. Thanks for the discussions.
> murali
eummagic
Member
The point is, this what I feel and hence decision made me to settle for a budget DVD player - is why to invest more for a technology that is going to die soon. I agree that I too have 200+ DVD movie collections, but its again ones choice of how to enjoy it. I was actually not looking for studio quality for my DVD collection to be played on my LCD but to have decent quality. The purpose of me going for Full HD LCD is to enjoy quality from like blu-ray or media harddisk players etc. and not to deal with the current technology. Right now I may not be doing justice to my LCD but once when technology becomes popular and demand increases the rates gets slashed and you will come to know that you have achieved what you needed.
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psychotropic
Well-Known Member
So many points to respond to
@venkat and murali - i don't think you guys are really disagreeing....you guys are talking abotu different aspects of the same product....venkat is not saying factors like quality of materials etc., does not affect the quality of the player, but they are at a lower order of criticality than say the de-interlacing chip, or the upscaling chip....and what Oppo seems to have achieved with the 983 is something that 2000 dollar DVD players can't seem to match....while they may have better materials and a better clock, the presence of that anchor bay chip seems to blow everything out of the water (i've only read about it, which is why i am saying seems)
@sgmane - my Sony NS708 also handles badly scratched discs very well....it's a competent player for the money, although it has some image noise issues.....it's ALWAYS ALWAYS worth it to go for at least a CA DVD89....it costs 10k.....which is not earth shattering...and it will give you much better images than the samsungs, the sonys and the philipses of the world
@eummagic - DVD is going to be alive and kicking for some years at least....if you invest 10k now on a CA DVD89.....or 14k on a CA DVD99.....in those couple of years it will deliver more than enough value. It is also the case that the upscaling done by these players is of a better quality than that done by the BD players from Sony, Samsung and Panasonic. Of course CA is launching a BD player, as will be Denon and so on, but that's going to take a bit of time, and it's going to be crazy expensive to start off with. Therefore...after having spent 81k on your lovely 46" screen......just spend 14k on a CA DVD99, and I can assure you that you won't regret it......at least go to a store and do a comparison......go to a place like the "Cressida AV Zone" in Thiruvanmiyur.....they sell CA products...but they use a SOny NS708 for demoing their FPDs....so you can do a good comparison of the quality over there....
@venkat and murali - i don't think you guys are really disagreeing....you guys are talking abotu different aspects of the same product....venkat is not saying factors like quality of materials etc., does not affect the quality of the player, but they are at a lower order of criticality than say the de-interlacing chip, or the upscaling chip....and what Oppo seems to have achieved with the 983 is something that 2000 dollar DVD players can't seem to match....while they may have better materials and a better clock, the presence of that anchor bay chip seems to blow everything out of the water (i've only read about it, which is why i am saying seems)
@sgmane - my Sony NS708 also handles badly scratched discs very well....it's a competent player for the money, although it has some image noise issues.....it's ALWAYS ALWAYS worth it to go for at least a CA DVD89....it costs 10k.....which is not earth shattering...and it will give you much better images than the samsungs, the sonys and the philipses of the world
@eummagic - DVD is going to be alive and kicking for some years at least....if you invest 10k now on a CA DVD89.....or 14k on a CA DVD99.....in those couple of years it will deliver more than enough value. It is also the case that the upscaling done by these players is of a better quality than that done by the BD players from Sony, Samsung and Panasonic. Of course CA is launching a BD player, as will be Denon and so on, but that's going to take a bit of time, and it's going to be crazy expensive to start off with. Therefore...after having spent 81k on your lovely 46" screen......just spend 14k on a CA DVD99, and I can assure you that you won't regret it......at least go to a store and do a comparison......go to a place like the "Cressida AV Zone" in Thiruvanmiyur.....they sell CA products...but they use a SOny NS708 for demoing their FPDs....so you can do a good comparison of the quality over there....
In a way your are right. About 10 years ago, companies such as Meridian, Lexicon and others were able to sell $25,000 units as they had proprietary knowledge of video processing, and audio decoding. But a couple of companies in the Silicon valley such as Cirrus Logic, and Anchor Bay have brought these technologies down to an art and easily available. Today if these companies try to hawk their technologies at those prices, they will be quite naive and have very few takers.
There will always be two sets of people. The mainline who are ready to spend a reasonable amount, and those for whom price is no concern. That is why manufacturers pamper both groups.
If you look at displays there are not too many differences except in terms of prices differences because of size, In the area of audio, yes manufacturers continue to have reference units (flagship) that will be ten times the cost of their mainline unit. But if you look at HT, manufacturers are moving away from these concepts and are bringing more and more technology and features to their mainline products. Till a few years ago, Hitachi was strutting around as the high end display manufacturer. But today companies such as Samsung, Pioneer and others are thrashing them in the market with better players that sell at half the cost. Hitachi has been forced to bring down their prices and compete in the same plane.
In a way the HT market is comparable to the PC market. It is so competitive and so easy in terms of technology availability that prices will continue to fall and technology will continue to be enhanced.
In AVRs the difference, at least in the US, is completely different. Mainline units are simple and can be installed by the buyer without too much hassle. Then there are the custom installers that integrate the AVR to home systems. These are much more complicated in terms of wiring, controls etc. But if you look at the features and specifications, they will not be too different from mainline products in the same price range. Even if you look at the Elite brand of Pioneer, their prices and features are comparable to the mainline brand.
Mediocre sound? Frankly you must listen to a Oppo 983, a CA Azur 540D or similar players from Yamaha and Denon first. Let me give you two examples. I have a large number of DVDs that I use as reference source. Two of them are my favourites - The Hunted and The Incredibles. Released in 2003, The Hunted has superb performances by Tommy Lee Jones, and Benicio Del Toro. The Incredibles, of course, is a great animation movie and winner of two Academy awards. It is also one of the best animation ever brought out by Pixar. The Hunted has superb sound tracks, while The Incredibles is excellent for the video.
I once saw The Hunted using an Yamaha 1500 DVD Player, and the Yamaha 2600 AVR. There are a couple of scenes that are always etched in my mind. In one scene, Aaron (Benicio Del Toro) is chasing a couple of hunters in the forests of Oregon. He runs rapidly around the confused hunters and taunts them with whispers. The way the Yamaha combination projected the sound of Aaron running around (leaves rustling, and Aaron's breathing) and whispering to the hunters made you feel you were in the forest. In another scene there is a gun shot when I could clearly hear the birds flying away from the trees above my head. I have used the same DVD on numerous other occasions including in an HT system costing around $600K using Classe equipment. They just could not create that sound.
In The Incredibles, there is a scene where the kid Dash is being chased by the villains at super high speed. The filming of this scene as Dash runs through the wood is superb where the camera focuses on Dash at the same time tries to keep the surrounding vegetation in focus as they whiz by on the sides. I saw this movie in a HT system that had a Runco projector attached to equipment worth around $400K, It had all the bells and whistles of a high end HT room. Just six months ago, I saw the same movie in a showroom that had a projector made by some company called Vivitek connected to a Pioneer 400 DVD Player. The images were so clear and vivid that I would say the difference between this and the Runco system would hardly be 5%.
Because of the speed of technical obsolescence in HT, I would any day buy a player that I can use for two years and throw away than worry about copper plating, clocks, etc. Again the perceivable difference between a $500 DVD Player and a $5000 one will be 10-15%, and it certainly does not justify the high cost difference.
Cheers
eummagic
Member
Thanks for the info! but I have already purchased Philips DVP5986 (due to budget)
moserw
New Member
>>>> Cool. Venkat, Hunted is my favourite too. I saw this movie in cable TV once. I am trying hard to get a dvd of this but no success yet
Prakash
Thanks Venkat/Prakash for sharing about The Hunted. I never came across it. Now I will catch up on it. Tommy Lee Jones' movies are pretty good.
spirovious
Well-Known Member
Hi friends,
Sombody told me that HD audio cannot be transfered via reg. coax connection.You need to have HDMI on AVR.
In that case few receivers has HD decoder onboard,but cannot except HDMI
audio(only video).In that case how to use onboard decoders?
Sombody told me that HD audio cannot be transfered via reg. coax connection.You need to have HDMI on AVR.
In that case few receivers has HD decoder onboard,but cannot except HDMI
audio(only video).In that case how to use onboard decoders?
I am getting concerned with this. I discussed this with Raghu of Decibels, and he also said it does not make any sense.
Yes, many manufacturers allow the transfer of what they call LPCM (multichannel HD audio) only through HDMI cable. This seems to be for copyright protection. But if that is so, it does not make sense for the HDMI cable not to carry audio! An HDMI 1.3 has to carry both audio and video. This has to be this way, particularly if the manufacturer claims his unit can decode Dolby and DTS HD.
What I would like to do is to get specific model numbers and write to the manufacturer for clarifications.
Cheers
spirovious
Well-Known Member
OK, but can we send HD audio via coax to AVR & decode?
Completely agree with this point. I've owned an Oppo 983 for about 4 months now and it really does make mincemeat of any other DVD player I've owned or seen in other setups. Yes, I've probably not compared it with EVERY top notch player (Denon or Onkyo for eg) but I'm delighted with the Oppo. In fact, I was at this cross-roads a few months ago which many others have discussed here:
- have tons of SD DVDs. Can't throw 'em away!
- Blu-ray discs too expensive. Even if they become cheap not sure if all DVD titles I own will come out on BD in India
- Blu-ray players are expensive (PS3 being the cheapest) with no sight of prices falling in India
- Have a good display or planning to buy one
- wondering what the next step should be - buy yet another DVD player (quality one for say 10 to 20K) or bite the Blu-ray bullet and hope BD disc prices fall quick
The way I figured it - it is still worth investing in a quality DVD player now. And if I'm ready to pay 20K for a quality DVD player, why not buy the best in the business (983) which incidentally happens to cost not too much. If you have someone who can carry it back to India.
That way, even if BD players/discs become cheap all of a sudden, I won't feel silly because I only spent 20K!
The only downside of such a player is that it tempts you to upgrade your display
- have tons of SD DVDs. Can't throw 'em away!
- Blu-ray discs too expensive. Even if they become cheap not sure if all DVD titles I own will come out on BD in India
- Blu-ray players are expensive (PS3 being the cheapest) with no sight of prices falling in India
- Have a good display or planning to buy one
- wondering what the next step should be - buy yet another DVD player (quality one for say 10 to 20K) or bite the Blu-ray bullet and hope BD disc prices fall quick
The way I figured it - it is still worth investing in a quality DVD player now. And if I'm ready to pay 20K for a quality DVD player, why not buy the best in the business (983) which incidentally happens to cost not too much. If you have someone who can carry it back to India.
That way, even if BD players/discs become cheap all of a sudden, I won't feel silly because I only spent 20K!
The only downside of such a player is that it tempts you to upgrade your display
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