High End Pricing

[viren bakhshi]

If you had any doubts about the pricing of high-end audio components, especially tube amps, here's another revealing story, at:

2A3 Maniac
Voxativ 845 vs. Cayin Spark 9084d

Viren

 

[venkatcr]

Viren,

In every industry, there are always brands which price themselves out of the market. Brand positioning, owner arrogance, or whatever else - there are multiple reasons. Many manufacturers position their products at a specific price point to give themselves an exalted position.

The question always is - whether all these tactics are justified. If the manufacturer is able to convince buyers, then he succeeds, else he fails.

The other day, the driver of a car I was using was wondering why Trisha's (south Indian actress) beau was paying 8 crores for a Rolls Royce. Whatever I said, he could not mentally accept that a car could have that price. "What is in the car for that kind of pricing? Is the engine made of gold, or something', he was wondering. After a while I starting agreeing with him. A car takes you from point A to point B. A Maruti 800 does it as well as a Rolls Royce. Agreed you have some money, class, and want to travel in comfort. So use an Audi at 40 lakhs. But 8 crores? That is beyond being silly.

In AV, I strongly feel that the difference between a $2000 and a $20,000 product is less than 5% in terms of perceivable improvement. The other day I listened to a tube amp that had a price tag of <20K INR. It sounded simply fabulous. 5 hours, no fatigue, and a reluctance to shut it down. The only thing missing, maybe, was a three dimensional sound projection. I 'heard' this difference as I was actively looking for it. Many people will simply miss that. It had everything I was looking for in an amp - clarity, speed, separation, and a completely dead background. It will be very difficult for me to be ready to pay 2,00,000 for ANY amp that does not deliver at least 100% improvement. And that, I know, is not possible. There lies the conundrum.

The funny thing is that most people who can afford a $20,000 product will neither have the time nor the inclination to really use it. I have seen so many expensive audio and AV systems gathering dust as the owners are too busy.

The product that sells the most is always a product that delivers the goods and is reasonably priced. Of course, there will be audiophiles and videophiles who will keep looking for the ultimate product. The sad part is that price is the most critical factor in that search. When you hear a reasonably priced product sounding good, you tend to disbelieve yourself. How can this happen?

Cheers

 

[koushik]

The funny thing is that most people who can afford a $20,000 product will neither have the time nor the inclination to really use it. I have seen so many expensive audio and AV systems gathering dust as the owners are too busy.

That is very strong sentence and I don't think one should generalized that. I know atleast 2 person who have all the big names in their house and they are avid audiophiles, regularly listen to those and love them. They have Metronome kalista CD Transport, Kubala-Sosna interconnects and etc. He was having K-S emotion and recently upgraded to K-S Elation.

So no this is not true, atleast not, for these two gentlemen. They make time to listen to their fav music and have all the world of inclination towards them.

PS: Pardon me, later I notice that you said "most people". So yes, that may be true but I haven't seen one.

 

[Amitkg]

Viren,

In every industry, there are always brands which price themselves out of the market. Brand positioning, owner arrogance, or whatever else - there are multiple reasons. Many manufacturers position their products at a specific price point to give themselves an exalted position.

The question always is - whether all these tactics are justified. If the manufacturer is able to convince buyers, then he succeeds, else he fails.

The other day, the driver of a car I was using was wondering why Trisha's (south Indian actress) beau was paying 8 crores for a Rolls Royce. Whatever I said, he could not mentally accept that a car could have that price. "What is in the car for that kind of pricing? Is the engine made of gold, or something', he was wondering. After a while I starting agreeing with him. A car takes you from point A to point B. A Maruti 800 does it as well as a Rolls Royce. Agreed you have some money, class, and want to travel in comfort. So use an Audi at 40 lakhs. But 8 crores? That is beyond being silly.

In AV, I strongly feel that the difference between a $2000 and a $20,000 product is less than 5% in terms of perceivable improvement. The other day I listened to a tube amp that had a price tag of <20K INR. It sounded simply fabulous. 5 hours, no fatigue, and a reluctance to shut it down. The only thing missing, maybe, was a three dimensional sound projection. I 'heard' this difference as I was actively looking for it. Many people will simply miss that. It had everything I was looking for in an amp - clarity, speed, separation, and a completely dead background. It will be very difficult for me to be ready to pay 2,00,000 for ANY amp that does not deliver at least 100% improvement. And that, I know, is not possible. There lies the conundrum.

The funny thing is that most people who can afford a $20,000 product will neither have the time nor the inclination to really use it. I have seen so many expensive audio and AV systems gathering dust as the owners are too busy.

The product that sells the most is always a product that delivers the good and is reasonably priced. Of course, there will be audiophiles and videophiles who will keep looking for the ultimate product. The sad part is that price is the most critical factor in that search. When you hear a reasonably priced product sounding good, you tend to disbelieve yourself. How can this happen?

Cheers

-------------------------------------------
You mentioned about 20K INR, tube amp,, could you please mention the brand and model no.?

 

[shafic]

The other day I listened to a tube amp that had a price tag of <20K INR. It sounded simply fabulous. 5 hours, no fatigue, and a reluctance to shut it down. The only thing missing, maybe, was a three dimensional sound projection. I 'heard' this difference as I was actively looking for it. Many people will simply miss that. It had everything I was looking for in an amp - clarity, speed, separation, and a completely dead background.

Well said!!

I have Scott LK 72 and Philips AG 9015 & 9018 tube amps. They are fabulous. The three dimensional sound you mentioned, I heard only with Philips tubes + Goodmans Triaxiom 1220C combination. I have paid 30K & 20K respectively.

Thanks.

regds,
shafic

 

[venkatcr]

You mentioned about 20K INR, tube amp,, could you please mention the brand and model no.?

In a little while. I am doing a detailed audit and will post a review in these pages. I am also comparing a lower priced regular amp from the same manufacturer.

cheers

It is not only the pricing vs performance at all it is the exclusivity attached with the product.... and in other cases there may not be any but the brand, the exclusiveness, etc.

I can understand exclusivity in stuff such as clothes, personal accessories, pens, etc. I can understand you would pay 5 lakhs for a pair of Jeans because that has a particular brand stamp, or 40K for a Mont Blanc. It is a different matter you have to flaunt your derriere all the time for people to see and recognize the brand. :lol:

But, if two products can deliver very near results, and one costs 10 times more than the other - that is where my eyebrows go up. That is where I feel the difference in pricing does not justify the perceived difference in performance.

As you say it is all subjective. But then.....

Cheers

 

[dillihifi]

Nice but I have another opinion

It is not only the pricing vs performance at all it is the exclusivity attached with the product. Similar pricing exists across all genres of audio equipment. Well in many cases there is a perceptible improvement and in other cases there may not be any but the brand, the exclusiveness, etc.

I have come to understand that in this line most of things are subjective and even two individuals given a choice may not agree on the same set of components.

Well of course this is fun so lets enjoy while we can

 

[koushik]

Agree with Venkatcr. When we listen to a 20k amplifier and then later upgrade it with a 60k amp, we should atleast get a 2x times improvement, if not 3x. But mostly you get 0.5x improvement only and then we incurr more expenses to upgrade the speakers, the interconnects, the speaker cables and maybe the source to get an improvement worth say 10k. But for that how much are we paying....

How do you know the percentage of improvement? Or what is the formula? How to get that?

 

[koushik]

The other day, the driver of a car I was using was wondering why Trisha's (south Indian actress) beau was paying 8 crores for a Rolls Royce. Whatever I said, he could not mentally accept that a car could have that price. "What is in the car for that kind of pricing? Is the engine made of gold, or something', he was wondering. After a while I starting agreeing with him. A car takes you from point A to point B. A Maruti 800 does it as well as a Rolls Royce. Agreed you have some money, class, and want to travel in comfort. So use an Audi at 40 lakhs. But 8 crores? That is beyond being silly.

You have reached a point in your life, where, you can think that if you have money and want luxury go buy a 40 lacs car but 8 crore is insane. There are people who will say similar thing in the following way:

"A car takes you from point A to point B. A Maruti 800 does it as well as a Audi. Agreed you have some money, class, and want to travel in comfort. So use a Honda City at 10 lakhs. But 40 lakhs? That is beyond being silly."

 

[venkatcr]

How do you know the percentage of improvement? Or what is the formula? How to get that?

Understanding and recognizing small differences between a good and a better amp may be difficult and may require trained ears. But even untrained ears can certainly hear and understand the 'large' differences that are supposed to be there to justify the large price difference.

Take a Ahuja and a Marantz - everyone can hear the difference. Take a NAD and a Marantz, and the going gets more difficult. But what I am saying here is this. Take a Ayre AX-5 at $10,000, and a Audio Note Jinro at $26,500, you will be hard pressed to find differences and pin them down.

Read what Stereophile has to say about each.

"The AX-5 offered a combination of incisive detail, perfect musical timing and momentum, and naturally warm timbral colors, said AD. "It's one of the three best, most musical, most human-sounding solid-state amps I've ever heard," he concluded. "Its wide bandwidth and low distortion are a testament to the intrinsic linearity of the diamond circuit," added JA.

"Though its midrange was a bit soft, the Jinro showcased powerful bass, unsurpassed flow and momentum, and an overall sound that was very subtly sweet. AD concluded: "The Jinro exists as an appealing alternative for those who can appreciate and afford such a thing: a wonderful, wonderful amplifier."

And, read what they say about the NAD C 316BEE at $379.

"The NAD matched power with grace, providing a rich, forceful overall presentation and an impressive ability to follow complex musical passages and make clear, truthful distinctions among musical instruments."

This is where I am saying the difference between three products priced at 400, 10,000 and 26,500 MAY not justify the price differences.

As DilliHiFi said, brand awareness and branding could play a role. But the delivery certainly does not justify the price difference. At least in my opinion.

Cheers

 

[musicbee]

All that money has to be spent somewhere or on something right? No use in keeping it till the end... you cannot take it when you die... so you might as well spend it (at least a good part of it) and have lots of fun doing it.

 

[koushik]

All that money has to be spent somewhere or on something right? No use in keeping it till the end... you cannot take it when you die... so you might as well spend it (at least a good part of it) and have lots of fun doing it.

LOL
My son/daughter can be heir and they will always wish for peaceful rest of my soul!

Take a Ahuja and a Marantz - everyone can hear the difference. Take a NAD and a Marantz, and the going gets more difficult. But what I am saying here is this. Take a Ayre AX-5 at $10,000, and a Audio Note Jinro at $26,500, you will be hard pressed to find differences and pin them down.

At this price point, yes. IMHO it will not be exactly "improvement" of quality but difference in presentation. And people who want the presentation of Jinro have to pay the premium.
I am a person with mixed attitude towards this:

Unlike you, I don't think people who are spending this much money are silly or insane. Not because of "their money, their hobby" thing but I respect their ears, knowledge and urge.

And Like you, I should not upgrade from my 1.5 Lacs system to 15 Lacs just for the change in quality or presentation or both. In time, 1.5 can go to 2-3, but that is it. But hey, who knows, when you start making lots of money your thinking changes!

 

[ghatgepatil]

"But hey, who knows, when you start making lots of money your thinking changes!"

Audio takes a back-seat then. Many "other" () things start getting priorities not attempted ever earlier.

 

[reignofchaos]

What one buys is his or her own prerogative. I always say the same thing - Vote with your wallet.

 

[Naturelover]

I would say it depends how important are music and good sound to you. Would you buy a cheaper car than what you can afford and spend more on a stereo or better quality recordings? I know some who would.
Then there are some who would go for the best they can afford without bothering about diminishing returns as costs go up.
Then again there would be the minuscule few who can afford and get the best.

Talking of costs, audio hi end pricing can simply go through the roof. Golmund is one prime example and it is not even very well reviewed.
http://www.silences.be/pricelist/goldmund.pdf
On a lower, more "affordable" level there is Bang & Olufsen. USP is style statement.

Check out lists for most expensive stereo components
HigherFi-Ultimate - The Worlds Best and Most Expensive Amps
All About The 23 Most Expensive Audiophile Speakers of All Time Most Expensive Audiophile Speakers of All Time

Keeping to valve amps, how about these
Engström & Engström The Lars Amplifier | Sound & Vision
Engstrom & Engstrom The Lars Type 2 Monoblock | Sound & Vision
AM Audio 833S Mono Amplifiers | News | StereoNET

 

[vijwilso]

But hey, who knows, when you start making lots of money your thinking changes!

very true !!!

 

[koushik]

koushik, let me put it simply, out of my experience. I purchased a Plinius (Highly reputed brand from NewZealand) for a second hand price of 70k. I paired it with a Kef Cresta 2 (amazing speakers), sourced from a Quad cd player. The sound was astonishing. Later I purchased a Sugden a28 second hand for 19k. The difference was minute, very very little. After extensive listening, I concluded that the sound quality difference was almost unnoticed, only if we carefully listened, we feel the sound was a slight better in favour of plinius. But the difference in price........By the way the Plinius is for sale, for 60k

There are hand-shaking problems. Every person with money can buy hi-end audio system, but buying the priciest and connecting them at home will not give you superior sound. You have to carefully pick the components that pairs well with each other. Try your Plinius with a Dynaudio speaker and let us know your findings.

But, yes, I agree with you and this is well known fact. The theory of diminishing return.

 

[Fantastic]

The theory of diminishing returns appears to apply to everything ever offered to consumers . The chances that a billionaire would buy a great sounding $2000 system is remote ! He'd most likely be happy buying a glitsy $100,000/- system ( or something very much more expensive ) ! Products and pricing for them is determined by the demand that the buyer generates. Marketing people look for areas where they can keep selling prices as high as possible and manufacturing costs as low as practically possible. Additionally they spend a lot on 'appearance'. Humans always fall for 'looks' ! Everyone knows that !

A long time ago there was an article on a test of two identical circuits. One in a crude black box and the other in a very nice shiny pretty case. They asked several people to pick which one was better sounding. Invariably most picked the shiny box ! A majority of people fall for this. It's just a human failing . You can teach yourself to avoid falling into this trap but it will not be so easy !

Circuit designs don't keep improving continuously to infinity. After a point even that is subject to the theory of diminishing returns on the 'effort' that's put in.
As time has already proven, reducing distortion beyond a point ( say below 0.1% !) alone doesn't improve sonic performance. Some components (like capacitors) with no measurable difference ( as we can determine now ) appear to have sonic differences. This applies to other components too thought often they are blown out of proportion and leads to a 'cult' following AND resultant escalation of prices for those parts .

The end result is that the product is now far more expensive with these ' better' parts but there is no mention or proof of how the 'whole' system gained by using those parts.

So you have to rely on your ears on picking what's acceptable to you and the one that fits your pocket. If booth suit you, you are lucky ! If the manufacturer of that product made it for Rs1000 ( parts cost ) and sold it for Rs10,000/- you might not really know. You will NEVER be able to estimate what the other 'costs for manufacture' are. Those costs might be unavoidably 'very high' . So profit margins might actually be moderate and not as it appears with a cursory glance at the innards ! But as long as you consider the price 'worth paying for', it shouldn't matter.

EVERYTHING eventually is determined by what your 'mind' tells you ! Try to control it's activities !

I keep saying that people who just want a good system for playing at average levels only need a well made chip amp implementation . They match or beat equipment costing thousands of dollars if played 'within' their rated capability. The more adventurous can spend months or years comparing components !

You must have also looked at the 'link' I gave else where ,comparing two systems kept hidden under a cover . One was a Classe amp and others expensive components ( Wadi I think) (each item costing a few thousand dollars) , the second system was a Behringer A500 ( $200) and ordinary Sony CD player.
Most preferred the Behringer ! No one knew what brands were being compared as they were not visible.
So don't worry what systems cost. If they sound good to you and fit your pocket , you've found your system ! Always search for systems to fit your budget and DON'T run away from something that costs a pittance ! Check it out. It might just sound the best ! Life is full of surprises !