How can 1 record sound AMAZING while the rest are ok?

[perceptionist]

First a little background... I recently bought my first "serious" turntable. It is a Technics 1200 Mk2. My record collection is quickly approaching the 40+ mark. The TT came with a cheap AT cartridge. After a little research I got a new Sure M97xE.

So here's the thing, I made all the required adjustments and began listening to a few albums (even before switching to the Sure cart) and when I put on my Kool and the Gang - Emergency album I was BLOWN AWAY!! The sound was incredible. The bass nice and solid...mids and highs not too high or low or "too anything".... it was perfect...well as good a sound as I have heard so far on my setup. But none of my other albums are quite as impressive, they're good but not as impressive as my Kool & the Gang, why is this?

Could it be the type of music? Other artists include a wide variety: Metallica, Jethro Tull, Patsy Cline, Creedence Clearwater, Traffic, Kenny Rogers, Janis Joplin, some house music & hip hop...

I gather from some of my research that people decide on the cartridge they use based on the type of music they will be listening to... if this is true then I am in trouble, or will at least need to build a collection of cartridges unless there is a nice universal choice.

Sorry to pack so many questions into a single post and thank you in advance for all your experienced feedback

 

[jls001]

The Shure M97xE is a good stylus. It has very nice midrange, and more than decent bass and treble. Where it falters is probably in the upper high frequencies (it can sound brittle compared to better and costlier cartridges), and mid-bass and deep bass. You can safely ignore sub-32 Hz deep bass as most systems can hardly reproduce below that unless reinforced by subs.

You are lucky to get a record whose sound you like. Use this as a reference henceforth.

Make these fine adjustments to your cartridge:

1) balance your tonearm properly. I have varied tracking force from 1.25 to 1.5 and I like about 1.39 gms. I can't explain why but it sounded real nice with this much tracking weight. Set your antiskating weight to the same value as your vertical tracking weight.

2) Do two-point null alignment after you have mounted your cartridge. Download the Stupid Protractor from here. You will need to print it to scale. I find this protractor indispensible for cartridge alignments. It is hardly stupid! Try reading up about the idea behind two null points. It helps to understand the reasonings behind what we do or are asked to do

3) If your arm has vertical tracking angle adjustment, take a record of medium thickness, put it on the platter, drop the needle on the record WITHOUT spinning the record. Step back a bit, bend down so that your eyes are level to the tonearm level. The arm tube should be parallel to the surface of the record. If it isn't parallel or nearly parallel, then adjust height of the arm at the pivot end. This step must be done after proper tracking weight has been set. The assumption here is that the majority of your records will be of medium thickness. The VTA thus arrived at will be mostly true, and will be off for extra thin records and extra thick records (180 and 200 gms records). BE EXTRA CAREFUL NOT TO BREAK YOUR STYLUS.

4) If your phono preamp allows it, try adjusting the resistive loading between 47 kOhms and 62 kOhms. Or even 32 kOhms. The recommended capacitive loading for M97xE is 250 pF. Use that as well if possible. Thumb rule: higher resistive loading value gives better highs, and vice versa.

With these optimisations done, if a record sounds good then you know that it is a good sounding record. Bad records will still sound bad What you have done is eliminate the doubt that your setup is less than optimal.

 

[Saket]

First a little background... I recently bought my first "serious" turntable. It is a Technics 1200 Mk2. My record collection is quickly approaching the 40+ mark. The TT came with a cheap AT cartridge. After a little research I got a new Sure M97xE.

So here's the thing, I made all the required adjustments and began listening to a few albums (even before switching to the Sure cart) and when I put on my Kool and the Gang - Emergency album I was BLOWN AWAY!! The sound was incredible. The bass nice and solid...mids and highs not too high or low or "too anything".... it was perfect...well as good a sound as I have heard so far on my setup. But none of my other albums are quite as impressive, they're good but not as impressive as my Kool & the Gang, why is this?

Could it be the type of music? Other artists include a wide variety: Metallica, Jethro Tull, Patsy Cline, Creedence Clearwater, Traffic, Kenny Rogers, Janis Joplin, some house music & hip hop...

I gather from some of my research that people decide on the cartridge they use based on the type of music they will be listening to... if this is true then I am in trouble, or will at least need to build a collection of cartridges unless there is a nice universal choice.

Sorry to pack so many questions into a single post and thank you in advance for all your experienced feedback

Hello,

First things first, so Congrats on your great TT. Technics 1200 is a fantastic TT to have.

Now coming to your query, Look, the thing is that Vinyls can sound very differently based on the cartridge, there is no doubt about it. The Shure that you have got now is not a 'flashy' cart which will blow you away with its highs & lows; but its a smooth sounding cartridge. Many audiophiles prefer the smoother sounds, rather than 'bright' music. People who like their music to be full of thumps, and shrilling highs or music which sounds bright may prefer Shure's M44-7. There are many other cartridges available whose strengths lie in different areas, which is basically made to suit different listening preferences and this is the flexibility that vinyls offer, you can choose what you want to listen from your LP. So, this is regarding your cartridge. But this is not only about what a cartridge is capable of putting out. Its more like what the user wants his music to be.

Now as the taste of sound is purely subjective & varies from individuals to individuals, its' difficult to ascertain which cartridge or sound is the best. It's simple what you like...is the best for you. So, do not worry about the choice you made if you are happy with the way it is sounding.

The other thing about the particular vinyl that you wrote about, some vinyls are first presses, which are bound to sound better, some are mastered better by the engineers and some are recorded better in the first place. Simply putting, a song that has been recorded badly in the studio itself will not sound great on vinyl or any other format, irrespective of it being a first press or 180 gsm!

Also, the quality of vinyl used, the impurities in it, they all play a significant role in deciding the output of a vinyl in terms of music. So, it is possible that the vinyl that you ended up loving may be upto your taste of music, like bright music, could have been recorded & then mastered pretty well and the disc that you are playing is a first press and audiophile quality 180/200 gsm vinyl.

Last but not the least, our forum is full of wonderful & knowledgeable people on board, who have conducted various experiments & posted reviews about different cartridges. Explore them and I am sure that you will find what you want. Of course, nobody can afford to have a full range of cartridges to all listening moods, but at least if one is a serious audiophile then can choose about 2-3 cartridges and keep them on different head-shells and swap them easily according to the mood.

Hope that it helps,

Regards,
Saket

 

[kuruvilajacob]

Another reason why some records sound better than others could be due to the fact that some may have been cleaned by the previous user. You cannot judge whether a record is clean by looking at it. Most of the dirt is inside the groove and any such record will sound dull even using the best cartridge. If you are going t be a serious Vinyl listener, you must invest in a cleaning system in the future

 

[tek]

Well one factor I don't think many people tend to think about is the actual mastering of the album. A good mastering of an album can make a world of difference in the sound. Even if an album is well recorded, in the mastering process if something goes wrong it can sound very flat and lifeless. Many of these "audiophile" recordings available today put heavy emphasis on the whole analog recording chain, including analog mastering done by specialized experts. Same thing goes with CDs, you might get a good sounding CD and a bad sounding CD of the same exact album!

80s stuff like Kool and the Gang placed heavy emphasis on that "80s sound" which is heavy on the production side of things. Which is why some people love it and some people hate it. Lots of 80s albums sound great on vinyl, because they were well recorded (some digitally also) and well mastered. There is a band called Beautiful South, who have albums released in the 80s. I remember hearing one of their vinyl albums at a friends place, and the sound was incredible. When I noticed the vinyl, it was very flimsy and bended very easily. No where near 180/200gm pressings you get today. It simply blew them away.

 

[Staxxx]

I would plus 1 the above. I am very happy with my system (which does not have an analogue source, as an aside), after going through over 15 full systems I am sure and endless fiddling. However, my bug bear is certainly that most albums are recorded and mastered so variably that I can never be sure to get that "perfect" sound that I am looking for from each of the albums. Sometimes, you have to just accept this (when you feel all else is optimized) and just enjoy the music.....

 

[perceptionist]

If your phono preamp allows it, try adjusting the resistive loading between 47 kOhms and 62 kOhms. Or even 32 kOhms. The recommended capacitive loading for M97xE is 250 pF. Use that as well if possible. Thumb rule: higher resistive loading value gives better highs, and vice versa.

Is that the main purpose for those settings? I remember once owning an amplifier which had the ability to make those adjustments but never knew what it was for.

Last but not the least, our forum is full of wonderful & knowledgeable people on board, who have conducted various experiments & posted reviews about different cartridges. Explore them and I am sure that you will find what you want.

I have been reading these forums for a while before registering and many times lose track of time as I notice night turning into day as I read. I'm loving this hobby as my interest grows. A major motivating factor to me finally buying the TT I always wanted was viewing all of the Technics 1200/1210 service/maintenance videos from "viperfrank" on youtube. Seeing how easy these things are to work on was very enticing, in fact the first thing I did when I got it home was completely disassemble it and thoroughly clean and inspect it... (not to worry, I am quite meticulous and comfortable with such projects)

Of course, nobody can afford to have a full range of cartridges to all listening moods, but at least if one is a serious audiophile then can choose about 2-3 cartridges and keep them on different head-shells and swap them easily according to the mood.

This is exactly what I hope to accomplish as $$ and time allow I just hope to minimize my trial and error by doing plenty of research before buying.

In some of my reading on cartridges I've made a note to look deeper into the Denon DL-110 and the Audio Technica AT120E/T as time allows.

The idea of upgrading my stock Shure stylus to a Jico SAS stylus has also found its way onto my list of things to research further as well. I understand there is a break in period for a new cart/stylus. Having only about 5 hours on my new Shure, I guess I can expect positive changes as it wears in. Sometimes while researching I wonder where the separation is between fact and fiction, like how much of what I'm reading are over-hyped reviews on products which offer only subtle barely noticeable differences as opposed to a universally agreed upon tried and true product offering a night and day difference in sound anyone can agree on.

Lots of 80s albums sound great on vinyl, because they were well recorded (some digitally also) and well mastered.

Good to know. I have mostly been picking up classic rock lately but this info will likely motivate me to look into expanding the 80's section of my collection, thanks!

Thanks for all your replies, I'll still be reading here and there

 

[jls001]

Is that the main purpose for those settings? I remember once owning an amplifier which had the ability to make those adjustments but never knew what it was for.

Yes, it is.

MM cartridges are generally designed for 47 kOhms resistive loading, so most MM-only phono cartridges didn't have resistive loading adjustments. Shure M97xE has been found (by some people) to work well with 62 kOhms. Of course some people don't like it. Such things tend to be taste and setup specific. MM-only phono stages usually have two or more capacitive loading adjustments.

When one comes to MC cartridges, the only thing that matters is the resistive gain.

 

[sachu888]

Which Phonostage do you own?

Regards,
Sachin

 

[omishra]

Is that the main purpose for those settings? I remember once owning an amplifier which had the ability to make those adjustments but never knew what it was for.

MM cart need proper R and C loading because its coil has more inductance and loading changes effective resonance (frequency response of audio band). Generally high voltage output hence voltage amplifier in phono stage does job on peaked audio band.

Read this link for more information. Is shows effect of loading on frequency response of your Shure MM97xe cartridge. I have one with me.

MC cart has lower coil inductance so its resonance frequency is far large, away from audio band. Within audio band it is not affected by capacitive loading. Still "R" loading is important because it has lower internal coil impedance and lower output voltage. To get max current from that coil (to excite phono input) you need to match equal resistance loading in phono. This maximizes output (as well as cuts noise pickup).

 

[perceptionist]

Which Phonostage do you own?

Being new to the world of Phono, I am still learning about the advantages of attention to detail with regard to methods of amplification. I am currently settling with the phono input on my Technics SA-GX290 receiver here in my bedroom. I also sometimes move the TT down to the basement where there is a Pioneer VSX-406. I also have a Pioneer SX-203. All of these were acquired either at thrift stores or flea markets. Of these, do any stand out as superior or are they all pretty much equal performers?

Is the choice of amplification dramatically important or is it subtle?

I am getting curious about this area of the system and have been trying to educate myself. I looked over a couple DIY preamp builds. It looks like an interesting and fun project which could also save me a lot of $$. Later on if I get more serious with this, I can consider draining my bank account on something flashy, but right now times are hard :/

 

[sachu888]

Is the choice of amplification dramatically important or is it subtle?

I am getting curious about this area of the system and have been trying to educate myself. I looked over a couple DIY preamp builds. It looks like an interesting and fun project which could also save me a lot of $$. Later on if I get more serious with this, I can consider draining my bank account on something flashy, but right now times are hard :/

A good quality Phonostage does play a very important role in vilyl rig.You have a lot of options as you are in US.You can buy an Art Dj phono pre or CA 640P from Amazon.You can also build some of the good quality DIY phonostages> I would suggest you to build CNC MM Phonostage http://www.hifivision.com/phono-turntables/20115-batery-powered-diy-cnc-phono-stage.html read more here Another Super High End Phono Stage! No expense spared... - AudioKarma.org Home Audio Stereo Discussion Forums .It can be built in $50 and will certainly outperform budget phonostages like CA 640p,NAD PP2 etc.

Regards,
Sachin

 

[perceptionist]

I would suggest you to build CNC MM Phonostage

Thanks Sachin for the info! I've been reading and I'm 14 pages into your first link and 3 pages into the Hypnotoad thread (2nd link).

Although I am new to making this kind of thing, I am confident in my skills enough to give it a go.

From what I've read so far am I correct to conclude the nice printed circuit boards for this project were limited and only created for that group build? Having never made something like this, is it easy to bring Hypnotoad's photo of the bare PCB to a business or online to make the board? Are there businesses that will make a single custom PCB for a reasonable price?

Thanks, I will continue reading later on.

 

[sachu888]

Thanks Sachin for the info! I've been reading and I'm 14 pages into your first link and 3 pages into the Hypnotoad thread (2nd link).

Although I am new to making this kind of thing, I am confident in my skills enough to give it a go.

From what I've read so far am I correct to conclude the nice printed circuit boards for this project were limited and only created for that group build? Having never made something like this, is it easy to bring Hypnotoad's photo of the bare PCB to a business or online to make the board? Are there businesses that will make a single custom PCB for a reasonable price?

Thanks, I will continue reading later on.

Hi,
I provide PCbs to Hypnotoad Ak members.I can ship you CNC PCB if you want.PM your email address I will send you BOM and build manual for CNC Phonostage.

Regards,
Sachin

 

[perceptionist]

PM sent Sachin.

I am still reading the threads, so sorry if this was already covered, but I was wondering if I could make the CNC operable from a plug in AC to DC converter (wall wart). I have a little understanding of the advantages of battery power over AC with regard to noise, but isn't it the same to use a DC power supply as using batteries?

If it's possible I would like to set it up to accommodate both options.

 

[sachu888]

PM sent Sachin.

I am still reading the threads, so sorry if this was already covered, but I was wondering if I could make the CNC operable from a plug in AC to DC converter (wall wart). I have a little understanding of the advantages of battery power over AC with regard to noise, but isn't it the same to use a DC power supply as using batteries?

If it's possible I would like to set it up to accommodate both options.

It runs on dual supply(+/-) so it won't work on wall wart.Wall warts are also very noisy and will add unwanted noise in CNC.You can build OPS(Power supply designed by Omishra) for better result.It performs just like batteries.You can see few pics here Another Super High End Phono Stage! No expense spared... - Page 78 - AudioKarma.org Home Audio Stereo Discussion Forums
and here Introducing the (mini) Tower of Power - AudioKarma.org Home Audio Stereo Discussion Forums

Regards,
Sachin