Plasma TV Observations and Questions

[vramak]

As I had told in this thread - http://www.hifivision.com/television/9221-help-ive-got-demo-piece-ir-am-not-sure-what-do-now.html - the dealer tried to pass off a demo piece but thanks to the advice from the people here, I was able to get the dealer to promise to send me a new piece once stock arrives. (The stock is yet to arrive and I've verified with many dealers that Samsung B450 is in fact in shortage. That's another matter and it's being discussed in the other thread.) In the interim the dealer said I can keep using the demo piece till the new piece arrives.

Being able to use the demo piece gave me an opportunity to test the plasma TV and see how it fares for gaming etc. Here are things I have observed. The TV used is Samsung B450 42" plasma.

1. Plasma burn-in is NOT a myth. It is in fact very real.

Here's an image of my TV when I got it from the dealer...

You can see the ghost images of the Sony Max logo and black bars clearly on the screen. If you look closely you'll also see SunDirect HD logo and scorecard. This is an example of image burn in. These ghost images remain to be seen on the TV even after watching more than 60 hours of fullscreen content.

I almost gave up on plasmas after noticing this image burn-in problem until I made my second observation.

2. Image retention and burn-in never happen as long as you keep brightness and contrast at low or medium levels.

The settings were by default in dynamic mode (brightness/contrast = 80/90). Dynamic mode is actually eyesore - it's too bright and too sharp. So I looked up some settings on the net and set the mode to cinema mode with brightness/contrast at 50/60.

Then I played about 30 hours of GTA 4 on this TV. GTA 4 displays a static map/HUD on the screen. I played ONLY GTA 4 for the 30 hours I played it - no other games or movies were played in between and the longest nonstop playtime was for about 3 hours.

After the 30 hours of GTA 4, I did notice that the map/HUD got faintly retained on screen - It would be visible upon close inspection when viewing a black screen in fully dark room. But after watching just one movie of 2 hours, the map/HUD ghost image was gone.

So, plasma TVs DO make great choices for gamers as long as the brightness and contrast are kept low. Of course, if you play games during daytime in a bright room then plasmas are surely not for you.

3. Motion blur in plasma TVs is higher than in CRT TVs!

I don't know if this is a general problem with plasmas or if it is a problem with my particular model or my particular set but I actually notice motion blur in my plasma TV in scenes which never had motion blur in my old CRT tv.

Samsung B450 is supposed to have 0.001ms response time and 600hz subfield drive and all that but I don't know why I notice motion blur.

This problem is clearly noticed when I see fast scrolling text on screen. The text seems to have trails on it. I've never seen this happen in my old CRT.

This could also be because of another problem I've noticed with plasmas - everything on screen seems to be retained for a little while. Whenever a static image is shown on screen followed by a black screen (for example, the intro credits) a very faint ghost image is retained for a second, then it fades away.

I thought motion blur was prevalent only in LCD screens. Has anyone noticed motion blur in his plasma ?

4. Plasma screens do have better image quality than LCD and LED screens!

In the photography world it is well known that print is the highest quality medium. I found that my photos look closer to print quality in my plasma TV than what they look in my Sony VAIO LCD display or my Dell LED display.

To my fairly trained eye, the plasma appears to show more shades of a color than both my LCD and LED displays. I certainly prefer looking at my photos on the plasma screen than on my LCD or LED screens.

Finally a side-note - I think plasma TVs are for videoholics who would take good care of their TVs, protecting them from burn-in in exchange for the slightly better image quality offered by them. If you don't want to be bothered about burn-in protection then LCD is the way to go.

 

[thevortex]

Nothing can match a CRT in terms of motion handling, vramak! No matter what people say, watching fast moving action (as in a cricket match) is still best done on a CRT .

About image retention, the only thing I want to add is that in some cases these are not permanent. Once you vary program material (you stay away from Sony MAX) for a couple of days, then it is quite OK. And this burn in only happens if the channels are watched without changing for about 4 to 6 hours. I had the logo appear one night as an image on my Plasma TV. And then I gave the TV a mix of BD rips and DVDs to play for a day. The image retention was no more.

I understand that after 200 hours, we are free to run through our program material for as long as we like and with whatever contrast level we like.

 

[vramak]

One question about break-in period - is breaking-in really necessary for plasmas nowadays ? Are you sure any content can be watched on plasmas after break-in period without worrying about image retention ?

I don't see anything mentioned about breaking-in in the manual but image retention is mentioned in the 2nd page of the manual. The manual says,

"Image retention occurs in plasma panels when watching static content like logos for an extended period. To avoid image retention turn down the brightness and contrast. Burn-in may occur when watching static images for an extended period. To avoid burn-in reduce brightness and contrast when watching content with static areas. Damages caused due to image retention and burn in are not covered under warranty."

Nothing is mentioned about break-in period tho. So, is breaking-in necessary ? Does it really help the panel avoid burn-in later ?

 

[alokbharti]

I agree on all the four points.

About burn-in,
I am sure your set has been abused very badly for demo in the shop.
may be a 24x7 IPL SunHD broadcast in dynamic mode.

Thanks a lot for sharing your experience.

After reading your original post. I have been very careful with my set till now. Checked it carefully for any burn-in and also the usage hours in service menu.

It has been more than a month and about 150 hours of viewing. I have still kept it in movie mode ( brightness 50/contrast 60/ cell light 5).
I have asked every family member to keep changing the tv channels in between hyeah:
Since SunHD IPL broadcast is ads free, I used to change channels in between the timeouts in every match.

 

[adder]

4. Plasma screens do have better image quality than LCD and LED screens!

In the photography world it is well known that print is the highest quality medium. I found that my photos look closer to print quality in my plasma TV than what they look in my Sony VAIO LCD display or my Dell LED display.

To my fairly trained eye, the plasma appears to show more shades of a color than both my LCD and LED displays. I certainly prefer looking at my photos on the plasma screen than on my LCD or LED screens.

Finally a side-note - I think plasma TVs are for videoholics who would take good care of their TVs, protecting them from burn-in in exchange for the slightly better image quality offered by them. If you don't want to be bothered about burn-in protection then LCD is the way to go.

now that ain't exactly true since their are plenty of lcds tvs that are better then the model you are comparing,both have their pros and cons.

now comparing a laptop lcd screen to a plasma isn't a fair comparision,even a el cheapo VU lcd would fair better then a laptop screen,the dell display even though it has a LED backlight still has a crappy TN panels which are one of cheapest and inferior tech based lcds.

 

[Dushie]

For first 150 hours use it on 50% settings for brightness and contrast, use pixel shift or whatever program you have to avoid burn in. After that you will not face any issues.
I have a Q9 plasma have been using the same from past 3 years never faced any issues and the PQ is awesome.

 

[vramak]

now that ain't exactly true since their are plenty of lcds tvs that are better then the model you are comparing,both have their pros and cons.

now comparing a laptop lcd screen to a plasma isn't a fair comparision,even a el cheapo VU lcd would fair better then a laptop screen,the dell display even though it has a LED backlight still has a crappy TN panels which are one of cheapest and inferior tech based lcds.

I still haven't ruled out LCD TV's. Please let me know some specific LCD TV models that are known to have better image quality than Samsung B450 plasma.

I will go have a look at them and might end up buying one if the image quality is better than this plasma.

And about computer monitors vs LCD TV's, I guess only the most expensive displays like Apple Cinema Display have IPS panels, which is supposed to be the best. Are there any IPS panel LCD TVs available here ?

 

[BLASTO]

I still haven't ruled out LCD TV's. Please let me know some specific LCD TV models that are known to have better image quality than Samsung B450 plasma.

I will go have a look at them and might end up buying one if the image quality is better than this plasma.

And about computer monitors vs LCD TV's, I guess only the most expensive displays like Apple Cinema Display have IPS panels, which is supposed to be the best. Are there any IPS panel LCD TVs available here ?

Well, consider Samsung B650 LCD.
That is not in the price range of the plasma in question though.
Nor does it display colours as natural.

 

[vramak]

For first 150 hours use it on 50% settings for brightness and contrast, use pixel shift or whatever program you have to avoid burn in. After that you will not face any issues.
I have a Q9 plasma have been using the same from past 3 years never faced any issues and the PQ is awesome.

That's good to hear!

 

[marsilians]

I have asked every family member to keep changing the tv channels in between hyeah:
Since SunHD IPL broadcast is ads free, I used to change channels in between the timeouts in every match.

No need to change every hours. You get burn in if you watch days on end with the logo at the same end. I watch my plasma for hours on end without changing - no issues in 2+ years.

 

[reignofchaos]

And about computer monitors vs LCD TV's, I guess only the most expensive displays like Apple Cinema Display have IPS panels, which is supposed to be the best. Are there any IPS panel LCD TVs available here ?

There are lots of them - all hitachis, lgs, panasonics and some philips tvs use IPS panels. The best ips based ones out there are philips 9703 series, lg lh90 and the hitachi l42x02a.

The only plasmas worth buying in the market are the leftover pioneers which still are the best tvs one can buy, the panasonic v and g series and the current gen hitachi plasmas. Apologies to samsung b450 fans but the phosphor trails in these plasmas is ridiculously bad. This ruins the biggest plasma advantage of amazing motion resolution.

 

[vramak]

The only plasmas worth buying in the market are the leftover pioneers which still are the best tvs one can buy, the panasonic v and g series and the current gen hitachi plasmas. Apologies to samsung b450 fans but the phosphor trails in these plasmas is ridiculously bad. This ruins the biggest plasma advantage of amazing motion resolution.

Isn't phosphor trailing a common problem with plasma's in general and not just with a specific TV model ? And isn't phosphor trailing noticeable only when you watch Sin City ?

I know there's some motion blur in this TV but I'm yet to see any phosphor trails in my 50+ hours of watching TV in a fully dark room. Let me watch Sin City in this TV and then confirm how bad phosphor trailing really is.

 

[vramak]

Apologies to samsung b450 fans but the phosphor trails in these plasmas is ridiculously bad. This ruins the biggest plasma advantage of amazing motion resolution.

Let me watch Sin City in this TV and then confirm how bad phosphor trailing really is.

I couldn't get hold of Sin City but I did one thing to check for phosphor trails - I turned the color to 0 and effectively made the screen black and white and watched a few scenes from Matrix Reloaded, Cars, Ratatouille, Inglourious Basterds. Trust me, I just couldn't see any hint of green trails.

reignofchaos, please do explain how you concluded that phosphor trails in Samsung B450 is ridiculously bad.

But I still confirm that motion blur is noticeable in pan scenes and especially in rolling credits. But again, the motion blur is not noticeable as I move away from the TV - probably because the blurred part and the actual image merge and become indistinguishable when viewed from a distance. At my current viewing distance - 8 feet for a 42" screen - the blur is noticeable. At 12 feet or more the blur isn't noticeable.

I'm not prejudiced against LCDs but let me tell you that the same rolling credits when viewed on my laptops' LCD and LED screens look worser than on the plasma. But once again, the blur becomes less obvious as I move away from the screen. I do not own an LCD TV and thus I can not test the results on an LCD TV. I do not know if LCD TVs are superior to LCD and LED computer monitors, once again, because I have not tested.

On CRTs I do not see any motion blur but it may be because everything on CRT is much less sharper than anything on LCDs or plasmas and because the picture already is soft, it's hard to notice motion blur.

What I've learned from this quest for buying a TV is that LCD, plasma and CRT are all far from perfect and choice here is a matter of trading off features you want for what you don't want. For me the choice was to pick a TV with good picture quality and a suitable size for my 8' viewing distance (the optimum distance for my HT tho my room is 18.5'x14.5'), so I chose a 42" plasma which is the best choice for me.

 

[BLASTO]

Trust me, I just couldn't see any hint of green trails.

reignofchaos, please do explain how you concluded that phosphor trails in Samsung B450 is ridiculously bad.

Well that is the opinion of few people who have hear say knowledge of old samsung plasmas. Since panasonic and pioneer does not make LCDs and concenterate(d) on plasmas, It became a general opinion that they make good plasmas.

I saw quite a bit of phospor lag in the LG and nothing so far in the samsung. Phospor lag happens in colour pictures also.

But I still confirm that motion blur is noticeable in pan scenes and especially in rolling credits. But again, the motion blur is not noticeable as I move away from the TV - probably because the blurred part and the actual image merge and become indistinguishable when viewed from a distance. At my current viewing distance - 8 feet for a 42" screen - the blur is noticeable. At 12 feet or more the blur isn't noticeable.

Horizontal pan is still worse than vertical pan in samsung. Much noticiable in single person shooter games.

YouTube - Samsung Vs Panasonic @ PDP motion Resolution by FullHD.gr gr

It is better than LCDs but panasonic is the true king here.

I'm not prejudiced against LCDs but let me tell you that the same rolling credits when viewed on my laptops' LCD and LED screens look worser than on the plasma. But once again, the blur becomes less obvious as I move away from the screen. I do not own an LCD TV and thus I can not test the results on an LCD TV. I do not know if LCD TVs are superior to LCD and LED computer monitors, once again, because I have not tested.

This is an unfair comparison. You should stop comparing your laptop screen to the plasma.
LCD Tvs are undoubtedly better than laptop screens in all departments. Laptop screens are optimised for near vision static images for the most part.

On CRTs I do not see any motion blur but it may be because everything on CRT is much less sharper than anything on LCDs or plasmas and because the picture already is soft, it's hard to notice motion blur.

That is not true. You don't notice motion blur in CRTs because there aren't any. BTW, why is your CRT picture softer than LCD/Plasma? Sounds like a problem or a bad CRT.

What I've learned from this quest for buying a TV is that LCD, plasma and CRT are all far from perfect and choice here is a matter of trading off features you want for what you don't want. For me the choice was to pick a TV with good picture quality and a suitable size for my 8' viewing distance (the optimum distance for my HT tho my room is 18.5'x14.5'), so I chose a 42" plasma which is the best choice for me.

The best choice for you is still a 32" LCD with good motion handling since your viewing distance is ~8 feet. Philips have some excellent 32" IPS panels. Just have a look before you accept the replacement. Make sure to carry the same materials you have already viewed in your plasma and view them from 8 feet from a comparable philips 32" LCD (Or a 32B450/550 LCD) and decide.

 

[reignofchaos]

I couldn't get hold of Sin City but I did one thing to check for phosphor trails - I turned the color to 0 and effectively made the screen black and white and watched a few scenes from Matrix Reloaded, Cars, Ratatouille, Inglourious Basterds. Trust me, I just couldn't see any hint of green trails.

reignofchaos, please do explain how you concluded that phosphor trails in Samsung B450 is ridiculously bad.

But I still confirm that motion blur is noticeable in pan scenes and especially in rolling credits. But again, the motion blur is not noticeable as I move away from the TV - probably because the blurred part and the actual image merge and become indistinguishable when viewed from a distance. At my current viewing distance - 8 feet for a 42" screen - the blur is noticeable. At 12 feet or more the blur isn't noticeable.

I'm not prejudiced against LCDs but let me tell you that the same rolling credits when viewed on my laptops' LCD and LED screens look worser than on the plasma. But once again, the blur becomes less obvious as I move away from the screen. I do not own an LCD TV and thus I can not test the results on an LCD TV. I do not know if LCD TVs are superior to LCD and LED computer monitors, once again, because I have not tested.

On CRTs I do not see any motion blur but it may be because everything on CRT is much less sharper than anything on LCDs or plasmas and because the picture already is soft, it's hard to notice motion blur.

What I've learned from this quest for buying a TV is that LCD, plasma and CRT are all far from perfect and choice here is a matter of trading off features you want for what you don't want. For me the choice was to pick a TV with good picture quality and a suitable size for my 8' viewing distance (the optimum distance for my HT tho my room is 18.5'x14.5'), so I chose a 42" plasma which is the best choice for me.

Maybe I was mistaken then - the B450 that I checked out in Croma had the exact same motion blur issue that you mention and to my naked eyes, it seemed like phosphor trails. I could also see a bit of flicker if the screen was all grey or all white.

What you say about LCDs and Plasmas having trade offs is absolutely true. However you really can't judge LCDs from the TN panel dell that you have. They've come a long way since then and there are lots of LCD TVs that surpass 720p plasmas in everything for sure. Motion blur on LCDs is mostly a non issue these days with 100Hz and 1-2ms panels.

 

[vramak]

Horizontal pan is still worse than vertical pan in samsung. Much noticiable in single person shooter games.

YouTube - Samsung Vs Panasonic @ PDP motion Resolution by FullHD.gr gr

It is better than LCDs but panasonic is the true king here.

That's a very useful link! Should have a look at Panny panels to check if motion handling really is this good.

This is an unfair comparison. You should stop comparing your laptop screen to the plasma.
LCD Tvs are undoubtedly better than laptop screens in all departments. Laptop screens are optimised for near vision static images for the most part.

However you really can't judge LCDs from the TN panel dell that you have.

Ok... I don't think LCD TVs are much better than laptop screens. I have compared my Dell LED screen with Apple Cinema display side-by-side and trust me, the biggest difference between the two screens is the off-angle image quality. Otherwise my Dell LED screen is only slightly worser - that is what I and my graphic designer friends thought. And I don't think any generally affordable LCD/LED TV is better than Apple Cinema's LED IPS panel.

Anyways, I think we should stop discussing this point anymore. I'm talking based on what I've seen (subjectively) and you're talking based on stats (objectively). This is only going to be one long, endless discussion.


Do plasma's have better image quality than LCDs/LEDs ? I don't know and that's my final stand. Peace!

That is not true. You don't notice motion blur in CRTs because there aren't any. BTW, why is your CRT picture softer than LCD/Plasma? Sounds like a problem or a bad CRT.

The pic was softer because I was watching downscaled 720p content (PS3 games) on my CRT and through composite. And I did not notice motion blur on my CRT. My point was, it's hard to perceive motion blur when watching a 29" CRT of 640x480 resolution (with downscaled 720p content through composite) at 8'.

The best choice for you is still a 32" LCD with good motion handling since your viewing distance is ~8 feet. Philips have some excellent 32" IPS panels. Just have a look before you accept the replacement. Make sure to carry the same materials you have already viewed in your plasma and view them from 8 feet from a comparable philips 32" LCD (Or a 32B450/550 LCD) and decide.

32" ? I thought 42" isn't big enough for 8' and I find 6' to be the right distance for 42". I'm even thinking if I should go for the 50". I'm using this TV for ONLY movies and games, so I'd naturally expect a wholly engrossing audio-visual experience. 32" simply won't do it for me. And another problem with small screens will be that my front speakers' soundstage will be wider than the TV, so people on the edge of the frame will sound like they're outside the frame. That was an annoyance when I was using my 29" CRT.

And did you say 32" 'LCD' because there are no 32" plasmas?

 

[thevortex]

vramak - CRTs are the king as far as motion reproduction is concerned. You will not notice any lag whatsoever. The LCDs and Plasmas are the ones doing the catching up in this department, at least. If you are happy with your 42 inch Plasma TV that is all that matters.

There will always be people preferring LCD or Plasma or even CRT. Up to individual taste and choice.

 

[BLASTO]

32" ? I thought 42" isn't big enough for 8' and I find 6' to be the right distance for 42". I'm even thinking if I should go for the 50". I'm using this TV for ONLY movies and games, so I'd naturally expect a wholly engrossing audio-visual experience. 32" simply won't do it for me. And another problem with small screens will be that my front speakers' soundstage will be wider than the TV, so people on the edge of the frame will sound like they're outside the frame. That was an annoyance when I was using my 29" CRT.

And did you say 32" 'LCD' because there are no 32" plasmas?

Wow 6 feet for 42"?? :clapping:
I prefer >10'.. Anyways, to each his own.

Downscaled 720p games will be soft only. No issues.

And yes, I recommended 32" LCD as there aren't any plasmas in that size.

 

[vramak]

Wow 6 feet for 42"?? :clapping:
I prefer >10'.. Anyways, to each his own.

Well, actually the THX recommended viewing distance for 42" is around 5 feet and SMTP recommended distance is around 4 feet! But that's for 1080p resolution tho.

Though my viewing distance is 8 feet, I found myself moving forward to about 6 feet while playing some intense action parts in games. It's at this distance everything on screen looks clear and enemies are easy to spot. But around 5 or 4 feet pixels become apparent and the picture becomes unwatchable.

6 feet I think is the best distance for watching fullscreen HD movies and playing games on a 42" 720p plasma. Try watching a fullscreen 720p movie once from 6 feet. I'm sure you'll enjoy the movie more.

 

[vchounal]

A word of caution against 2009 Panasonic plasmas. Cnet review mentions "Testing conducted on 2009 Panasonic plasma TVs, similar to this one, has revealed that black-level performance has become noticeably less impressive within what is typically the first year of ownership". Here is the link - Tests point to extent of loss in Panasonic plasma black-level performance | Crave - CNET