Please help me make the right Home Theater setup decision

[john_k_antony]

Friends,

Please help me resolve my confusion. This is regarding the right speaker and amplification choice for my dedicated home theater room. Few of you guys know my new setup. But just doing a recap of what I have and my dilemma.

I need the right speakers and amplification to set up 7.1 surround sound in a 24x15.6 room (375sft). Right now I have KEF Q300 LCR and KEF Q100 surrounds for my 7.1. My amplification is Denon 2310 105w/ch AVR. I already have issues with KEF Q300 + Denon 2310 not able to deliver right sound at the proper volume in my setup. I don't think I can continue with the setup anymore as I don't want to damage speakers / amplifier because of lack of synergy between them to create a room filling HT sound in my dedicated room.

Here is my dilemma now. What should I change to fix this.

1. Get a powerful 5 channel amp and keep KEF Q300 and Denon 2310. I will use pre-outs from Denon 2310 and feed the multi channel power amp. I have thought about getting Emotive multi channel power amp. I have thought about getting a UPA 500 and an XPA 200 for powering 7 channels. I initially thought of XPA-5 and decided against it as I fear it might fire my KEF Q300 if some handles them wrongly.

2. Sell my KEF speakers and get a high sensitive speakers and use them with Denon 2310. This option is more economical if could get a good deal on my KEF Q300 and KEF Q100 . Here are the specs of speakers I am looking for

1. Sensitivity : Minimum 90db
2. Wattage : 120-150W
3. Impedance : 6-8Ohms
4. Preferably 3 way configuration with 3 separate drivers.

1. Paradigm Monitor series (Center 3 as LCR and Surround 3 for surrounds). I have heard them and they sounded pretty good.
2. Wharfedale Diamond (10 CM as LCR and 10.DFS for surrounds). Never heard them. I can get an audition of them if you guys think its worth looking at them pairing with Denon AVR.
3. Sonodyne Avant (250 as LCR and 150 for surrounds). Never heard them. But heard very good reviews. I am having trouble getting auditioning them in Bangalore as no one is carrying them here
4. Monitor Audio Bronze/Silver series.

I am not sure how much can I expect for my KEF Q300 and KEF Q100 that are just 3 months old. I had to replace the drivers for a pair of my KEF Q300 a month back because they were "over driven" by my AVR. The speakers have full warranty left and bought from ProFx with bill and warranty.

Would really appreciate your thoughts on this.

Thanks,
John.

 

[shanmune]

Friends,

Please help me resolve my confusion. This is regarding the right speaker and amplification choice for my dedicated home theater room. Few of you guys know my new setup. But just doing a recap of what I have and my dilemma.

I need the right speakers and amplification to set up 7.1 surround sound in a 24x15.6 room (375sft). Right now I have KEF Q300 LCR and KEF Q100 surrounds for my 7.1. My amplification is Denon 2310 105w/ch AVR. I already have issues with KEF Q300 + Denon 2310 not able to deliver right sound at the proper volume in my setup. I don't think I can continue with the setup anymore as I don't want to damage speakers / amplifier because of lack of synergy between them to create a room filling HT sound in my dedicated room.

Here is my dilemma now. What should I change to fix this.

1. Get a powerful 5 channel amp and keep KEF Q300 and Denon 2310. I will use pre-outs from Denon 2310 and feed the multi channel power amp. I have thought about getting Emotive multi channel power amp. I have thought about getting a UPA 500 and an XPA 200 for powering 7 channels. I initially thought of XPA-5 and decided against it as I fear it might fire my KEF Q300 if some handles them wrongly.

2. Sell my KEF speakers and get a high sensitive speakers and use them with Denon 2310. This option is more economical if could get a good deal on my KEF Q300 and KEF Q100 . Here are the specs of speakers I am looking for

1. Sensitivity : Minimum 90db
2. Wattage : 120-150W
3. Impedance : 6-8Ohms
4. Preferably 3 way configuration with 3 separate drivers.

1. Paradigm Monitor series (Center 3 as LCR and Surround 3 for surrounds). I have heard them and they sounded pretty good.
2. Wharfedale Diamond (10 CM as LCR and 10.DFS for surrounds). Never heard them. I can get an audition of them if you guys think its worth looking at them pairing with Denon AVR.
3. Sonodyne Avant (250 as LCR and 150 for surrounds). Never heard them. But heard very good reviews. I am having trouble getting auditioning them in Bangalore as no one is carrying them here
4. Monitor Audio Bronze/Silver series.

I am not sure how much can I expect for my KEF Q300 and KEF Q100 that are just 3 months old. I had to replace the drivers for a pair of my KEF Q300 a month back because they were "over driven" by my AVR. The speakers have full warranty left and bought from ProFx with bill and warranty.

Would really appreciate your thoughts on this.

Thanks,
John.

My understanding is that your AVR+speakers (BS) are unable to pressurize your room effectively. Am I correct ? Your room is too big and ideally you require towers and a powerful AVR or an amp to get the best.

How about your subwoofer (Velodyne EQmax12) ? Though it is rated around 200 watts (+ 12 INCH driver), do you see a dip in the sound pressure ? what is the crossover frequency that you have set ? I am wondering how your AVR which is rated at 105 watts per channel is unable to drive your KEF Q300. I am sure that your AVR+KEF300 is not the best for your room size, but still I am not sure why your 2310 is unable to drive your small KEF300 speakers. Though they have quoted 105 wpc for 2310, is that the right specification with power measured across the freq spectrum (20 to 20khz) with 2 channels driven ???

Even if you change only your speakers, I don't think your Denon 2310 can do justice to such a big room. Or even if you just retain your KEF300 and add a dedicated amp (wiith 2310 as the pre-pro), that may also not be the best solution. Get tower speakers + XPA-5.

Even before that, your subwoofer is the most important part in creating the right amount of sound pressure in your room. May be, just changing to a bigger subwoofer might do the trick.

 

[ghatgepatil]

Is it necessary to immerse 375 sq. ft. area with HT feed? Any possibilities of putting up a ply-based demarcation wall across the 24' current-room length, to say, make the now-HT room to have an effective width of 10' and length of 15'.6"? Your current goods should perform fine then, IMO.

 

[john_k_antony]

My understanding is that your AVR+speakers (BS) are unable to pressurize your room effectively. Am I correct ? Your room is too big and ideally you require towers and a powerful AVR or an amp to get the best.

How about your subwoofer (Velodyne EQmax12) ? Though it is rated around 200 watts (+ 12 INCH driver), do you see a dip in the sound pressure ? what is the crossover frequency that you have set ? I am wondering how your AVR which is rated at 105 watts per channel is unable to drive your KEF Q300. I am sure that your AVR+KEF300 is not the best for your room size, but still I am not sure why your 2310 is unable to drive your small KEF300 speakers. Though they have quoted 105 wpc for 2310, is that the right specification with power measured across the freq spectrum (20 to 20khz) with 2 channels driven ???

Even if you change only your speakers, I don't think your Denon 2310 can do justice to such a big room. Or even if you just retain your KEF300 and add a dedicated amp (wiith 2310 as the pre-pro), that may also not be the best solution. Get tower speakers + XPA-5.

Even before that, your subwoofer is the most important part in creating the right amount of sound pressure in your room. May be, just changing to a bigger subwoofer might do the trick.

I think my Subwoofer is too much for the room . I am getting enough deep bass with Subwoofer volume set at 30 out of 80 and the Subwoofer channel level in the AVR is -7.5db.

My front LCR is crossed over at 80Hz and rear surrounds at 100Hz. The channel level for front LCR is set at +1db in AVR and rear surround is set at -2.5Hz. I got this settings after running Audyssey where it tries to get the -20db pink tone to sound at an SPL of 85db at my listening position. Audyssey founded my Subwoofer to be very powerful indeed.

Denon 2310 is rated at 105W / channel with 2 channels driven. Now to get some load off my AVR, I disconnected the rear surrounds. Now my AVR is driving only 5 channels for movies. Still its not able to bring the speakers to produce enough SPL.

Also please not that my room has absolutely NO reflection from any walls or ceiling or floor (at first reflection point).

Please excuse my lack of knowledge an experience here. How can there be a big difference in the SPL produced from a BS that has the same specification as a FS. Lets say both FS and BS has same set of drivers, same sensitivity and same power rating, then how can they produce different SPL for frequencies above 100-150Hz or so. I agree the cabinet plays an important role when it comes to lower frequencies.

For example compare KEF Q600c BS / Center channel vs KEF Q500 FS. Do you think the SPL produced by Q600c and Q500 differ for mid to high frequencies? I am asking because I have KEF iQ7 FS and KEF Q60C in my living room and they make same SPL for the same channel level set in the AVR. Well iQ7 can produce more bass. But I feel the mids and highs have same SPL from iQ7 and Q60c given the same input level.

Thanks,
John.

 

[john_k_antony]

Is it necessary to immerse 375 sq. ft. area with HT feed? Any possibilities of putting up a ply-based demarcation wall across the 24' current-room length, to say, make the now-HT room to have an effective width of 10' and length of 15'.6"? Your current goods should perform fine then, IMO.

Its a dedicated HT room with 145" screen mounted on the 15.6' wall and my viewing distance is around 19-20' from the screen . I need that much room size to watch movies.

And my 2 channel stereo is absolutely fine with a pair of 90db stereo speakers run by a 80w/ch stereo power amp and a Pass B1 pre with NO gain. That's why I was wondering if I get a 90db sensitive bookshelf speakers, it should be just fine. Any way my Subwoofer is super powerful to take anything less than 100Hz. Velodyne EQ Max 12 is just fine. With a powerful Subwoofer, I am wondering why would I need a FS when I will crossover my main channel speakers at 80Hz or even at 100Hz.

I am getting couple of guys visiting my place from ProFx tomorrow to evaluate the situation. Lets see what they find out.

Thanks,
John.

 

[john_k_antony]

With the help from ProFx, we are going to do an A-B comparison with the following speakers

1. KEF Q300 - 87db sensitivity, 120W max
2. KEF Q60c - 90db sensitivity, 150W max
3. KEF C6LCR - 90db sensitivity, 150W max

I will use my SPL meter to measure the SPL and will use the standard test tones for this experiment.

This will let me know if a higher sensitivity speaker will create a better SPL without distortion when used with Denon 2310. I think this will also help me make the right decision.

Thanks,
John.

 

[brtchehuo]

agree with you,This will let me know if a higher sensitivity speaker will create a better SPL without distortion when used with Denon 2310. I think this will also help me make the right decision.

 

[shanmune]

Please excuse my lack of knowledge an experience here. How can there be a big difference in the SPL produced from a BS that has the same specification as a FS. Lets say both FS and BS has same set of drivers, same sensitivity and same power rating, then how can they produce different SPL for frequencies above 100-150Hz or so. I agree the cabinet plays an important role when it comes to lower frequencies.

A very good question indeed !!! While I confess that I am not an expert, let me try to explain what my understanding is and others can very well correct me.

I think the sensitivity measurement of a speaker is done with a fixed test frequency (1000 hz I guess - I may be wrong with this number though). This standard guide line is applied to measure the sensitivity of all the speakers. Again, this measurement is only for that fixed test frequency (1000 hz). What will be the spl output at other frequencies ??? Also, the impedance curve changes at different frequencies and that curve will be different for different speakers. SpeakerB-A may draw more power to provide X db/m for Y hz. While speaker-B can very well draw lesser power for same X db/m and Y hz. Please let me know if your are thoughts are different.

Any way, you may require towers with enough muscle to pressurize your rooms and a supporting amp.

 

[john_k_antony]

A very good question indeed !!! While I confess that I am not an expert, let me try to explain what my understanding is and others can very well correct me.

I think the sensitivity measurement of a speaker is done with a fixed test frequency (1000 hz I guess - I may be wrong with this number though). This standard guide line is applied to measure the sensitivity of all the speakers. Again, this measurement is only for that fixed test frequency (1000 hz). What will be the spl output at other frequencies ??? Also, the impedance curve changes at different frequencies and that curve will be different for different speakers. SpeakerB-A may draw more power to provide X db/m for Y hz. While speaker-B can very well draw lesser power for same X db/m and Y hz. Please let me know if your are thoughts are different.

Any way, you may require towers with enough muscle to pressurize your rooms and a supporting amp.

shanmune,

Makes perfect sense to me now. But sensitivity number seems to be a good benchmark to decide the overall performance of a speaker system when you are choosing the amplification as far as I know.

I think that's why experts always ask you to get the full frequency response curve from the speaker manufactures. Unfortunately, only very few manufactures publish the the full frequency response curve. I am looking for the one for KEF Q300. If anyone has got the full response curve, I would really appreciate if you can share it here.

Thanks,
John.

 

[shanmune]

shanmune,

Makes perfect sense to me now. But sensitivity number seems to be a good benchmark to decide the overall performance of a speaker system when you are choosing the amplification as far as I know.

I think that's why experts always ask you to get the full frequency response curve from the speaker manufactures. Unfortunately, only very few manufactures publish the the full frequency response curve. I am looking for the one for KEF Q300. If anyone has got the full response curve, I would really appreciate if you can share it here.

Thanks,
John.

As you said, sensitivity is one parameter to decide on the required amplification. At the same time and as you rightly pointed out, this sensitivity becomes a not-so-important data when one sees the actual frequency response graph. I believe that floor standers do have a better frequency response for the full spectrum when compared to BS speakers. Again, I stress this point - Your room size is too big to fill with enough sound even for small towers. You might require a tower of power above 200 watts. So this is only a ideal case scenario and more importantly is your budget.
Eagerly waiting for your A-B comparison tests.

 

[john_k_antony]

Sure. I am planning to do the test tomorrow or day after. I will also add my KEF iq7 FS (90db) to the comparison test.

 

[sash]

John -
I like your thoughts on
1. Not compromising on SPL. Movies are not the same at a lower volume. Nobody must compromise on this IMHO - all efforts are wasted if you are not hit really hard by the sound in a movie.
2. I guess high sensitivity is another thing. For example i get reference volume levels (87 db and more as measured by my android spl meter) in my ~200 sq ft partially treated room at -5 volume level on my Yamaha receiver. The receiver is a modest one and the max volume on it is +16.5. It is always running cool. So i guess the speakers are not expecting too much of the receiver. I guess i must attribute this to the speaker sensitivity (92 db) - though i do not know a lot about the concept.
3. Having the same speakers for LCR. At higher volume levels one can easily notice the difference in sound from heterogenous LCR, see my thread here http://www.hifivision.com/home-theater/47857-floorstanders-center-channel.html
Good luck in your quest. Pls take your receiver with you when you go for speaker audition so you are not surprised later. Keep us posted.

 

[john_k_antony]

Friends,

I got some time today to do some comparison. This is what I did

Setup - 1

Oppo dedicated stereo -> Pass B1 Pre -> Acoustic Portrait 75w/ch Power Amp -> KEF iQ7 (90db, 150w) to left and KEF Q300 (87db, 120w) to right channel.

I played few of my reference tracks and some test clips. I set the volume level same in my Pass B1 pre for all the tests.

Both speakers were given full range music (Not movie soundtrack) signal and no Subwoofer was connected.

Here are the highlights

1. At the given volume, KEF Q300 woofers started to move vigorously. The woofers of KEF iQ7 also moved pretty fast, but not as uncontrolled as KEF Q300. The mid range driver on KEF iQ7 was moving very slow or you could hardly make out the movement. This means the 3 way KEF iQ7 FS was handling the high input power effectively between the 3 drivers.

2. Bass from KEF iQ7 was deeper and fuller compared to KEF Q300. This was expected because iQ7 is a 3-way 3 driver FS system and Q300 is a 2 way 2 driver system. However, what surprised me was the bass from Q300 was not bad either. If I didn't have iQ7 to compare, I would say Q300 produced pretty amazing bass for its size .

3. Most surprising thing was the SPL produced by both the speakers were more or less in the same range read from my SPL meter. I was playing little above the reference level - 90db SPL at my listening position that is around 18.5' from the speakers. At this point, Q300 seemed to struggle hard.

4. Immediately I reduced the volume to achieve around 75db SPL at the same listening position and now KEF Q300 was totally in control with adequate bass and details. I think this is the best volume/loudness level for Q300 to shine at their BEST.

Setup - 2

Oppo HDMI out -> Denon 2310 -> KEF Q300 (87db, 120w) to left, KEF Q60c (90db, 150w) to center and KEF iQ7 FS (90db, 150w) to right.

Here I didn't play any soundtrack or music. I just tried the Audyssey auto setup from Denon and wanted to check the channel levels set by Audyssey for each channel. The results came back as follows

Front Left (KEF Q300) = +1.5db
Center (KEF Q60c) = 0db
Front Right (KEF iQ7) = -1db

There is not much of a difference here. But when I played the test tone pink noise, I could feel the sound from KEF Q300 was slightly lesser than KEF iQ60c and iQ7. But a noticeable difference. So I assume there was a 2-3db difference from Q300 and Q60c/iQ7.

Now what I learnt from this exercise

I have to let go of both my Denon AVR and KEF Q300 and Q100 speaker setup . Because the combo is definitely incapable of filling my room with a good movie experience. The only good thing is that my Subwoofer (Velodyne EQ Max12) ROCKS .

Now to get a new AVR and Speakers will break my bank. So I am left with the following option.

1. Let go off KEF Q300 and KEF Q100 for a decent price .
2. Get a super efficient speakers and pair with my Denon AVR.
3. I have found only one set of speakers that are super efficient on "paper" and within my budget if I could sell the KEFs for a decent price. I have to audition them to make the final decision and they are Klipsch Reference series. Though I NEVER liked Klipsch for stereo as they sounded too harsh for my taste, I think they are perfect for movies. As you will watch only one movie at a time and you might not get too much listening fatigue from Klipsch. I heard that Klipsch high efficiency is available only from 100hz and above and it should be okay for movies as I am planning to cross them over at 80-100Hz.
4. I am dropping the idea of amp upgrade / getting a power amp like Emotiva now as I found out that KEF Q300 and KEF Q100 are NOT HT speakers at all. And I need to replace them.

They are best suited for 2 channel stereo paired to a medium powered stereo amp (50-80w/ch) in a small to medium listening room of max 200sqft area.

Right now these are the speakers in my audition list.

Klipsch RB-81 Package - around 1.75L after discount

Front L& R - RB 81 II - 97db, 150w
Center - RB 62 II - 98db, 150w
Surround - RB 52 II - 95db, 100w

Klipsch RB-61 Package - around 1.25L after discount

Front L& R - RB 61 II - 95db, 100w
Center - RB 52 II - 96db, 125w
Surround - RB 42 II - 93db, 75w

Planning to audition Klipsch reference this weekend at Cinebels Phoenix mall, Bangalore. I am trying hard for a home audition, I am even open to a paid home audition if the cost is not that high . Because most of the demo rooms are smaller than my dedicated room and has different acoustic treatment.

Thanks,
John.

 

[sash]

John while you are at Cinebels, you might want to audition Jamo D600. Have read great things about this system and it is THX Ultra2 certified which ensures it is certified to easily fill large rooms. You may have your reasons for not considering that route (you already have a sub etc) but want to hear what you think of the system - that is if time permits.

 

[john_k_antony]

John while you are at Cinebels, you might want to audition Jamo D600. Have read great things about this system and it is THX Ultra2 certified which ensures it is certified to easily fill large rooms. You may have your reasons for not considering that route (you already have a sub etc) but want to hear what you think of the system - that is if time permits.

Sash,

I am a BIG fan of D500 already. I was seriously considering them but, let it go because both D500 and D600 are 4 ohm speakers and they need amps that are capable of driving 4 ohm load for all channels. I didn't have any plan to upgrade my AVR now. The amps that can efficiently drive them will cost 1.25L minimum

They are amazing HT speakers. They are pretty expensive too.

Thanks,
John.

 

[john_k_antony]

Quick Update - 29-12-2013

After a pretty busy schedule at work, I finally got some time to check out the Klipsch RB-81 II HT package (2x RB-81 II, 1 x RC-62 II, 2 x RS-52 II). I carried my KEF Q300 along for audition. Here are the main observations

1. Given the same amplification, RB-81 is definitely louder than KEF Q300. We found a 3-4db SPL difference using an SPL meter. But I really doubt RB-81 is 97db sensitive. I would say it would be around 91-92db. I am assuming this based on its performance against KEF Q300.

2. Musically, at lower volumes, Q300, really outperforms RB-81. I would any day prefer KEF over Klipsch if its purely for music. Again this is TOTALLY based on my taste .

3. Though RB-81 rated at 97db, it DO need good amplification to sound full and to its full potential. At lower volumes, RB-81's woofers weren't moving at all . At lower volumes, KEF Q300 produced nice bass extensions. You need solid power to make the RB-81's 8" woofer to push some air.

4. When you crank up the volume, KEF woofers started to make that uncomfortable excursion while RB 81 started to come alive. It started to really "ROCK" the room. But I wouldn't say as musical as KEF. But for heavy metal and hard rock, I guess Klipsch will perform just great.

So to summarize, RB 81 outperforms KEF at higher volumes in the SPL output department. And this is what I wanted.

Then we tried the RB 81 system in surround mode. I tested the performance of RB 81 package turning off the subwoofer. Just to check the capabilities of the 5 channel speakers. They did perform good for movies. Good loudness for movie listening.

Yes, they are harsh sounding. But for movies, I think I am okay to have some extra "sparkle" .

So I am going to pull the plug for the RB 81 II - 5 channel package. Planning to buy them today / tomorrow from Cinebels.

PS : I did a brief audition of Klispsh Reference RF 7 FS. To my surprise, they sounded pretty good. It was different from the harsh Klipsh sound I was used to. The amplification was Marantz AVR as a Pre and Marantz 5 channel power amp.

Thanks,
John.

 

[john_k_antony]

All right just bought Klipsch RB 81 5-channel package. Will be delivered tomorrow

 

[john_k_antony]

Also Upgraded the amps - Bought Emo XPA-200 and UPA-500 during the holiday sale. They will be delivered by Monday or Tuesday.

-John.