The Challenge - Can You differentiate between MP3 and other formats?

alpha1

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These posts have been moved from another thread as members felt it was not relevant there.

VenkatCR


in case you do prefer the Mp3 form of music, 1 lakh would only bring out the limitations of the format. ill third the above statements and suggest something on the lines of the denon D-F107 or 103
For what it does and supposed to do, it does it great.

Lets do a test with you - send me a CD wave file - of your favorite song.
I'll convert it to mp3 - and reconvert it back to wave.

Now I have two wave files which I will send to you.
You will have to compare these two wave files - (1) original from CD (2) reconstructed from mp3

And you have to tell me which one is which.

Game for challenge?
 
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Re: Stereo Setup under 1L

Lets do a test with you - send me a CD wave file - of your favorite song.
I'll convert it to mp3 - and reconvert it back to wave.

Now I have two wave files which I will send to you.
You will have to compare these two wave files - (1) original from CD (2) reconstructed from mp3

And you have to tell me which one is which.

Game for challenge?

And whats your point in doing this??
 
Re: Stereo Setup under 1L

Lets do a test with you - send me a CD wave file - of your favorite song.
I'll convert it to mp3 - and reconvert it back to wave.

Now I have two wave files which I will send to you.
You will have to compare these two wave files - (1) original from CD (2) reconstructed from mp3

And you have to tell me which one is which.

Game for challenge?

thanks..But judging from your attitude, not interested in either arguing or proving :rolleyes:
If you want to learn you could do the same and try to hear it in any Good Setup
 
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Re: Stereo Setup under 1L

Lets do a test with you - send me a CD wave file - of your favorite song.
I'll convert it to mp3 - and reconvert it back to wave.

Now I have two wave files which I will send to you.
You will have to compare these two wave files - (1) original from CD (2) reconstructed from mp3

And you have to tell me which one is which.

Game for challenge?

hi alpha1 - i have done this very same thing - and i could easily make out the difference when i did it-

but yes, it would be interesting to take up this challenge - however - you must send me a CD with the two wav files because i do not trust the headphone-out of the computer too much.
 
Re: Stereo Setup under 1L

hi alpha1 - i have done this very same thing - and i could easily make out the difference when i did it-

but yes, it would be interesting to take up this challenge - however - you must send me a CD with the two wav files because i do not trust the headphone-out of the computer too much.

Sure.
Lets take this to PMs.
Which song? And in case I don't have the CD or ripped FLAC/Wav, you'll have to send me via a file hosting site.

I really wish to know if ppl can actually distinguish between highest bit rate mp3 and cda/wav.
Of course, my hearing is screwed above 14kHz :) so I cannot make any diff.
 
Re: Stereo Setup under 1L

Lets do a test with you
- send me a CD wave file - of your favorite song.
I'll convert it to mp3 - and reconvert it back to wave.
Now I have two wave files which I will send to you.
You will have to compare these two wave files -
(1) original from CD
(2) reconstructed from mp3
And you have to tell me which one is which.
Game for challenge?

Alpha1 This challenge is not at all challenging. Converting back to WAV from MP3 is too much of a give away;)

How about a FLAC/WAV file directly ripped from CD?

We have already done it here during Chennai HiFi meet. You can read it here:
http://www.hifivision.com/general-chit-chat/8161-2nd-chennai-hfv-meet-21.html#post115041
 
Re: Stereo Setup under 1L

Alpha1 This challenge is not at all challenging. Converting back to WAV from MP3 is too much of a give away;)

How about a FLAC/WAV file directly ripped from CD?

We have already done it here during Chennai HiFi meet. You can read it here:
http://www.hifivision.com/general-chit-chat/8161-2nd-chennai-hfv-meet-21.html#post115041

Why?
Mp3 gets decoded to wave only before getting converted to analog signal - whether in a Rs 15000 PC, or in a USD 1000 CD player.

I want to check few things:
1. Whether anyone can actually distinguish the source wave file from wave generated from mp3?
2. If ppl can distinguish, then is it because PC player does something / doesn't do stuff that CD player does ... and this leads to better resolution.

I don't want ppl comparing mp3 played on PC to a CD played on dedicated CD player.
 
Re: Stereo Setup under 1L

Mp3 gets decoded to wave only before getting converted to analog signal - whether in a Rs 15000 PC, or in a USD 1000 CD player.

I have no idea about this. Can anyone throw some light on how the digital information from CD is read & converted by the onboard DAC of a CD player?

Alpha says, digital content even in mp3 format would get converted to WAV before getting converted to analogue. Is it true?
 
Re: Stereo Setup under 1L

Not really. It gets decoded to something called PCM. Wave is a PCM container, as is AIFF. But when you convert a wave file to MP3, it is done by chopping off information to enable the huge reduction in file size.

Differentiating between Wave and MP3 requires the right equipment, and a user with non-deficient hearing, as well as the right kind of files. There are 1000 ways to compress a file, all of them make different compromises.

Thank you very much for the info Cranky.

this useless discussion

I think this comment was not warranted. Useless to whom?
 
Re: Stereo Setup under 1L

I have no idea about this. Can anyone throw some light on how the digital information from CD is read & converted by the onboard DAC of a CD player?

Alpha says, digital content even in mp3 format would get converted to WAV before getting converted to analogue. Is it true?


Captn, as mentioned by Cranky the input to the DAC is in a PCM ie Pulse Code Modulation format irrespective of the format.

Wav is a pure Computer format and Dacs have nothing to do with it.
 
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Re: Stereo Setup under 1L

Captn, as mentioned by Cranky the input to the DAC is in a PCM ie Pulse Code Modulation format irrespective of the format.

Wav is a pure Computer format and Dacs have nothing to do with it.

That is what I thought I knew. That MP3 format is created by trimming the original data to retain the bare minimum data required to ensure music playback. Hence the query.
 
Re: Stereo Setup under 1L

It has no relevance to thread topic and the question that was asked of the community. It is useless information to the person who has started the thread.

There you go. That is a better way of putting it. I request the moderators to bring this discussion in a separate thread as suggested by Cranky.
 
alpha1 and everyone else...lets forget about the listeners and audiophiles in general. What about the artists ? I love my artists & bands. And if they go to great lengths to produce DVD-As, HDCDs, SACDs, Blu-Ray Audio, high quality FLACs, Vinyls & LPs etc., surely they notice a difference. (case in point: Porcupine Tree, Nine Inch Nails, Radiohead, Tool, BT, Aphex Twin and a lot of others)

If you contest that, well then, there's nothing more to say.
 
alpha1 and everyone else...lets forget about the listeners and audiophiles in general. What about the artists ? I love my artists & bands. And if they go to great lengths to produce DVD-As, HDCDs, SACDs, Blu-Ray Audio, high quality FLACs, Vinyls & LPs etc., surely they notice a difference. (case in point: Porcupine Tree, Nine Inch Nails, Radiohead, Tool, BT, Aphex Twin and a lot of others)

If you contest that, well then, there's nothing more to say.

Fair enough. However, the artists themselves, or at least their record labels, are also selling music in all kinds of lossy formats. Radiohead very famously released all songs of their album In Rainbows first as downloadable mp3 (you could pay what you wanted), and only later, as CDs. The experiment was of course something different - they wanted to see how much their fans would pay for legal download of songs - but the fact remains that they were only selling mp3s, not even FLACs.

I completely respect the fact that an audio purist would not want to settle for a lossy format that results in a loss of audio information. However, the purists should also realize that the CD itself is a lossy music format, that is merely a digitized sampling of the original analog audio signal. At best, a step-ladder jagged approximated wave representation of the original audio signal can be extracted from the information stored in a CD. This digitized and sampled signal gets further approximated by the DAC, which essentially tries to guess and reproduce the analog wave from the digital samples that it gets as input.

Back to the point, people hold up the CD as some kind of a gold standard, which it is not, strictly speaking. Loosely speaking on the other hand, it is lossless enough and retains enough clarity that for all practical purposes, we choose it over an (older but better) analog recording medium. If the reason for our convenience is "no discernible audio fidelity loss", people should at least give high bitrate mp3s a chance. After all, it is a de facto and ubiquitous format, and does save a lot of space. Plus, many people all over, with or without golden ears, and with varying qualities of audio equipment do claim that they hear no discernible difference.

Now, having said this, if I'm paying good money (which I regularly do), I would rather prefer to buy a CD or FLAC. However, as a secondary format and especially if space is a concern as it often is in portable flash based players, a good bitrate mp3 packs quite a bit of wallop. In fact, VBRs are quite good too.
 
Fair enough. However, the artists themselves, or at least their record labels, are also selling music in all kinds of lossy formats. Radiohead very famously released all songs of their album In Rainbows first as downloadable mp3 (you could pay what you wanted), and only later, as CDs. The experiment was of course something different - they wanted to see how much their fans would pay for legal download of songs - but the fact remains that they were only selling mp3s, not even FLACs.

I would presume that is because quantity is winning over quality......simple.
Specially when portable media players have a become a huge hit. A nicely compressed MP3 or FLAC does not make much of a difference played on the media players........it does on high end equipment (though how many common Indians can afford is an alltogether different question)

I completely respect the fact that an audio purist would not want to settle for a lossy format that results in a loss of audio information. However, the purists should also realize that the CD itself is a lossy music format, that is merely a digitized sampling of the original analog audio signal. At best, a step-ladder jagged approximated wave representation of the original audio signal can be extracted from the information stored in a CD. This digitized and sampled signal gets further approximated by the DAC, which essentially tries to guess and reproduce the analog wave from the digital samples that it gets as input.

Your above explanation does not justify MP3 being good in any manner, instead if we have to strictly follow the above, you are pushing the quality conscious consumer to move towards Vinayls as they best mirror the original wave form.....The point is where do we stop, tomorrow if we get a formatt called ZP3 which compresses even more by truncating some more data, does not mean we can justify its mere existance by pushing a redundent fact that "who cares" if one is able to pack 1000000000 songs on a portable media player........

People who really care about "Music" would always prefer and take side of lossless formatt, even if they have to prefer quality over quantity.......

people should at least give high bitrate mp3s a chance. After all, it is a de facto and ubiquitous format, and does save a lot of space. Plus, many people all over, with or without golden ears, and with varying qualities of audio equipment do claim that they hear no discernible difference.

well every body has listened and is listining to MP3sss these days, aint that enough a chance given......and still most of the audiophiles clearly states CD/FLAC sounds better, heck even a non audiophile who cannot exactly explain the difference says CD sounds more "clean" than MP3

Now, having said this, if I'm paying good money (which I regularly do), I would rather prefer to buy a CD or FLAC. However, as a secondary format and especially if space is a concern as it often is in portable flash based players, a good bitrate mp3 packs quite a bit of wallop. In fact, VBRs are quite good too.

Well I agree on this point, portable media players AFA I can tell are not able to bring out the difference between FLAC and a decently encoaded MP3, however, again for me things clearly changed the moment the same tracks were thrown on an equipment in the lines of MISSIONS, MARANTZ, QUAD, WHARFs....etc etc ...... Seriously made my 8K MP3 collection redundent and I have stopped listining to songs untill I get my hands on a decent stereo setup........(saving for that like HELL now)......
 
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If we take a photograph in jpeg format and increase the compression, reducing the file size, there will be a threshold point where the effect becomes visible (what I see is decreased fine detail and content: subjectively, a flattening of the picture) and another where it becomes painful, and obvious even if you had never seen the uncompressed original, where artefacts become evident. Eventually, it becomes a strain to even make out the subject matter of the picture through those artefacts.

It is much the same thing for music compression, and, I guess, much the same applies. Not only is the A-B comparison with a picture the work of moments, we can adjust it with a slider in our graphics package and see the changing result instantaneously. I'm too lazy to spend much time doing A-B comparison with music --- but I wonder if there is any compression software that allows variable compression rates with monitoring of the result?

I don't much use a portable music player. When I do (train and plane, mostly) I do not find the compression bothers me much. I do find that I get a kind of fatigue from listening to BBC online broadcast of talk programs, which can be highly compressed, from my PC. Nothing scientific in this, though.

As a matter of principle, I'd be more inclined to use FLAC than MP3. Simply it is lossless!

I used to use a mini-disc quite a lot, with both a portable player and a deck for my hifi. I never felt any fatigue or problem with Sony's compression format (I forget the name) for this media.
 
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