USB DAC or Soundcard?

[harshad]

As the title suggests.. which of these would be a better choice for Music from a PC.. USB DAC or PCI Soundcard? I have googled for this, but nobody seems to have a conclusive opinion.
I am currently confused between the Audioengine D1 and Asus Xonar asus xonar st. Any other suggestions are most welcome.

 

[musicbee]

If your source is always going to be a PC and you don't need to add multiple devices then the Asus should be perfect.

PS - A PCIE card would be preferable thinking long term as PCI will not be supported.

 

[harshad]

@musicbee.. Surely the source is always going to be the PC. As far as the additional devices are concerned.. I wont be adding any more devices to the PC (Already have my graphics card installed).
To be more specific, I wanted to know.. for a given price (max 10k).. which of these would be a better route to go. I understand both have their pro's and con's, but which of these would be more immune to issues like jitter, noise etc. If they are comparable.. would like to go with the USB dac, for its added benefits of easy accessibility of ports and external volume knob.

 

[s_sachin]

Of the 2 usb dac's i have used - beresford caiman & dacmagic, i have found the digital inputs superior to usb for music playback. And they become better (async?) as you go up the $ .
So depending on what DAC you plan to purchase, you might still want to use a digital input rather than USB to the DAC.

You can probably go for a sound card first, if you like the analogs .. great, If you dont you have a digital out source to the DAC. I am assuming you already dont have a digi out on your PC.

Try ESI Jilia@ soundcard too.

 

[musicbee]

I have not heard the Audioengine so cannot say. I have heard the Asus and its quite good. For the money its a better fit and also has better specs (if my memory serves me right).

USB DAC has advantages in terms of portability and adding more devices (my previous question was about this and not the GFX) but you need to make a decision based on what sounds better and I believe the Asus Xonar is better in that regard.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

which of these would be a better choice for Music from a PC.. USB DAC or PCI Soundcard?

Here's what a maketing man probably once said... "Take a soundcard, reduce its functionality to 50%, 25%, or even less, and multiply its price by 10, 20, 100 or even more. We'll sell it called 'DAC'"

Of course I exaggerate somewhat. A stand-alone DAC is a logical development as a centre of system with several digital sources. Upgrading that DAC is then a way to upgrade every one of those sources. It will also mean that all the sources will have a similar analogue flavour, as they will all be playing from the same analogue output. Indeed a stand-alone DAC has its place.

Remember, though, that a stand-alone DAC is a one-way street (no ADC) and that if you ever want to record onto your PC from an external source you will need a sound card or sound interface.

Once upon a time, my PCI sound card was connected, both in and out, both analogue and digital, to my hifi. With Turntable, cassette, minidisk deck and minidisk portable and the amp's tape-loop connections made to a three-way tape-loop switch, there was capacity to take sound/data from any component to any component that supported recording it, including, of course, the PC.

USB DAC or PCI Soundcard?

Lets adjust that a little...

USB DAC or USB interface or Firewire interface or PCI[E] card or...

hyeah:

 

[square_wave]

A very generalized question so a definite answer is very difficult.

A high end pc soundcard is a very powerful instrument if deployed and utilized in the correct way. It forms a certain percentage of the overall technology for the creation of good quality sound. The rest of the percentage is in the implementation. Both sides are extremely important.

Assemble ten PCs randomly and install the same sound card in each of them and play each through the same high fidelity system and they will all sound different. Change the power supply in each of them and volia !....you get an even different sound !

Install the same sound card in a purposefully designed PC for audio and you can achieve the same sound as what you can get from a super hi end source. Now a purposefully designed PC for audio can come in any shape or form and sometimes it is called audio equipment source. Many a times they are a bit over priced too.

Remove unnecessary things from the sound card and use it in a carefully designed design for audio and it is stand alone DAC.

There is no definite answer. What you can achieve with either path completely depends upon how much focused you are and the rest of the chain and its implementation.

If someone tells you that you can take a sound card which uses the same chip as what is found in an xxx well received stand alone DAC and shove it into some PC and it is as good as it gets needs a good spanking !

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Well, back on that particular day, I just shoved my new RME soundcard into my very ordinary P4 machine and it left my Cyrus CD player (not top-end, but at least mid) well behind. Yes: analogue output.

So I do not think that PCs absolutely require enormous amounts of thought or tweaking to be used as sound sources --- but, at the same time, I'm not saying that some of that tweaking doesn't help, if only to provide us with hours of harmless fun. However, the audiophile world is fast infecting the PC world. A recent thread featured links to "quides to audio PCs," and one, in particular, spouted such nonsense that the author can't actually have known anything about PCs. They knew something about selling cables, though!

can take a sound card which uses the same chip as what is found in an xxx well received stand alone DAC

Shove a good sound card in your PC and you don't need a standalone DAC. I guess I get spanked pretty hard for that! :lol:

Install the same sound card in a purposefully designed PC for audio and you can achieve the same sound as what you can get from a super hi end source. Now a purposefully designed PC for audio can come in any shape or form and sometimes it is called audio equipment source. Many a times they are a bit over priced too.

Which is odd, because the ideal sound machine would, for a start, not make much noise itself. This means using low-spec CPUs and no fancy graphics to achieve low temperatures which don't need noisy fans. Similarly, fast-fast-fast HDDs produce a lot of heat, and are not needed for audio. All low-cost options!

On the other other hand ... I built my current PC because I could not get decent sound out of the previous one. There are always exceptions! There are PCs that are just not good at sound.

 

[square_wave]

Hey Thad,

Good point! It is quite true that a decent PC with a good soundcard will sound better than most cd players. The main reason is the lack of mechanical error since you are playing the music off the hard disk. And then you have a higher spec (most of the time) sound card playing the sound for you.

Now the playing field changes quite a bit when you reach high end territory. Comparisons and listening tests will expose many surprises when you compare standard PC analogue outputs to well designed PC / Standalone DAC combinations. If you ever get a chance, do some comparison tests and let us know what you think.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

It depends what you call "standard," square_wave. I'd start with cards (although I've never used this one) like the forum-favourite Juli@. I'd include companies like RME, Echo, Motu etc, that make professional-grade stuff.

That's my theory, at least, and my starting point. I have to say that I am shocked by a demonstration in one of Ethan Winer's presentations where he shows just how good a very ordinary soundcard is, measured against high-end equipment.

Whilst I believe (cynic that I am ) that the hifi industry has hyped the "DAC" and its prices, it is, I admit, impossible to prove, because the PC-card/interface trade has, for now at least, given up the hifi market entirely in favour of the studio/home-studio market, and "high-end" offerings come bristling with pro digital formats we can't use and mic/instrument pre-amps that we don't want.

What to do? Buy a DAC, I suppose

 

[harshad]

Hey Fellows, Thanks for the insights. As I gather, there is no definitive or one line answer to my question USB DAC or PCI Soundcard?

Personally I was looking to upgrade my (workstation + Gaming) system into a decent enough source for music. I understand this ain't the ideal setup for music, the factors of noise(Sonic+Electrical) coming into play. But for now I have to make dues with this, as I already spent a fortune on building this rig and need to save up for the amp+speakers.
Ofcourse, I am looking forward to learn as I go ahead and build a better setup in the future.

So I will update my Question. Which is a good Soundcard/DAC to startup with?

@s_sachin.. thanks for suggestion. Will surely consider the ESI - Juli@.
@musicbee.. Sorry.. for I got ur question wrong. I am looking for a source for a stereo setup. Not looking to upgrade. Decent Head phone amp will be a plus. The Xonar kind of fits the bill.

 

[square_wave]

Hey Thad,

There was a time when I used to believe digital playback is all about 1s and 0s. Then I got exposed to hi-end transports. I was able to understand / digest differences between various DACs but was bewildered when I heard fundamental differences in playback between transports. Once we compared differences between two super hi-end transports; a transport based on the venerable Philips CD pro2M and the 47 labs pi-tracer.

The differences were mind boggling ! I would even say that the two transports made each of the singers a bit different as if one of the singers was slightly older and had a thicker voice. One transport made the music fast and lithe and the music flowed effortlessly while the other had more body to each sound ( a more flesh and blood feel) but came with a certain thickness to the overall sound. To me, these were fundamental differences. Now one may prefer either of these transports depending on the rest of their system and room response differences.

With traditional sources like these, the differences can be very large. For me, the biggest advantage with modern pc playback is that the entry barrier for a decent frontend is very low now. Even with a half decent pc, one can attain very high levels of playback quality. A half decent PC playing EAC ripped wav / flac files through a USB dac or a decent sound card costing 5000 INR will beat most cd players below a lakh.

But when you compare these kind of PCs to very high end transport/dac combinations, the story is a bit different. At this level, very careful design is required to compete. I know few folks who have replaced their super high end traditional sources with pc playback systems. But they have taken the trouble to assemble the right kind of gear to make this possible. If you do it the right way, integrated file playback systems with built in dacs or well designed pcs with usb dacs can compete at the highest levels. No argument!

 

[iaudio]

Assemble ten PCs randomly and install the same sound card in each of them and play each through the same high fidelity system and they will all sound different. Change the power supply in each of them and volia !....you get an even different sound !

square_wave, Wouldn't a laptop with an async usb dac be an easier solution then?

 

[square_wave]

square_wave, Wouldn't a laptop with an async usb dac be an easier solution then?

Assync USB is currently one of the best solutions out there. Laptop or PC is a tricky question. A purposefully build PC for audio with a very good power supply is a better choice than a laptop in my opinion. A mac mini is a very popular choice. I have heard good results with Mac books too.

If you are building a file playback system for audio with inbuilt sound card and planning to use the analogue output, then the design is of utmost importance. This cannot be achieved by off the shelf cabinets, parts and power supplies if very high fidelity is the objective.

 

[Santy]

A half decent PC playing EAC ripped wav / flac files through a USB dac or a decent sound card costing 5000 INR will beat most cd players below a lakh.

Wow that's quite a statement. Deserves a new thread hyeah:. No offence!

 

[square_wave]

Wow that's quite a statement. Deserves a new thread hyeah:. No offence!

A half decent PC = A good pc with a nice power supply and all

5k inr = I meant a professional grade sound card. Isnt this the amount these cost nowadays? If not, then maybe 10k not sure about this. The minimum requirement is one of those studio grade cards.

The point is that once you get that file ripped to a wav or flac file using EAC and play it off the hard disk, half the battle is won. A studio grade sound card or an assync USB dac on such a PC is all you need for great performance.

This fact has been tested and proven by many. Getting good analogue output from a PC is a challenge. Assync USB is a piece of cake if you have the right DAC.

 

[akd]

Hey Thad,

A half decent PC playing EAC ripped wav / flac files through a USB dac or a decent sound card costing 5000 INR will beat most cd players below a lakh.

My experience using the same CD (Vangelis Pulstar)

half decent PC+nuforce uDAC marginally falls behind CA 650C, I have asked couple of ordinary listeners and all of them have said "no difference at all"

when we listen to music - do we really go into the spectra, soundstage etc. all the time? I do not, I don't know how better is the SQ of a CD player that costs more than 1000K!! more often than not we exclude the source - there are OSTs (hindi) whose CD will be way below inferior than the LP no matter what CDP is used because the digital transfer has completely ruined the tracks, IMHO performance of a set of equipment also depends upon what will be their usage, I can assure you if one is into Hindi OSTs before 1990 buying a high-end CDP will be a waste as he will not get a deserving digital source

Arnab

 

[square_wave]

Nuforce although a decent solution, is at the low end of the spectrum. It starts getting very interesting when you move up to assync DACs in the range of ~ 1200 $. Nuforce is not even assync.

A quick trick to increase quality of the nuforce dac is to add this device before the dac:
http://www.m2tech.biz/hiface.html

 

[santhosh]

A quick trick to increase quality of the nuforce dac is to add this device before the dac:
http://www.m2tech.biz/hiface.html

Vinny,
Surely you meant replace UDac with m2tech and connect to DAC (does not necessarily be an Async DAC since m2tech Outputs SPDIF). Correct?




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[square_wave]

Vinny,
Surely you meant replace UDac with m2tech and connect to DAC (does not necessarily be an Async DAC since m2tech Outputs SPDIF). Correct?




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Santhosh, what you said is correct ! I thought the udac will accept spdif

And you do not need an assync dac with the hiface

This hiface is a neat device. Check out this review.

6moons.com audio reviews: M2Tech hiFace